I was wondering what my fellow college students thought about protests, in light of today’s events when I heard on NPR about protests going on in about 50 or so cities in the US, the main one of course being Washington.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/01/27/iraq.protest.ap/index.html

Quote :

"Iraq war protesters rally in Washington Thousands of anti-war protesters demanded a withdrawal of U.S. troops in a demonstration in Washington today. "We see many things that we feel helpless about," said Barbara Struna, 59, of Brewster, Massachusetts. "But this is like a united force. This is something I can do." The rally featured a handful of celebrities -- including Jane Fonda and Susan Sarandon. About 40 people staged a counter-protest. "

Its not uncommon in chapel hill for there to be a small group of people with honk if you are against the war signs gathered ever weekend, or things like this:

Quote :

"Franklin Street's sidewalks saw a politically charged crowd Thursday night as about 200 participants protested President Bush's announcement to increase the number of troops in Iraq."

-the daily tar heel
http://tinyurl.com/28xbcf

Are there any causes you'd protest over? Would it have any effect? I've seen NCSU students rally against the administration over tightening restrictions & tuition increases so we must think writing articles for the tech, and having meetings with student government and the administration work to some degree. But is protesting a tool available to the average ncsu student, and would they use it for any causes larger than campus life?

1/27/2007 1:39:37 PM

I'm fairly convinced that protests have the opposite effect they're meant to.

Just look at the typical protest rally (Take the casket in the picture above-- it's repulsive, and I seriously want to hit the person who thought that it was a good idea). There's no way that a mass of dirty college kids and aging hippies reliving the good ole' days could sway people towards them.

There are good forms of protest, but they have to involve people actually involved in the issue being debated, and they have to involve some sort of sacrifice. A bunch of kids who will never ever go to Iraq taking a trip up to DC is lame.

1/27/2007 1:53:39 PM

What are you feelings on counter protests then? I mean there are thousands of protesters at Washington today and 40 counter protesters. Are they likely to have any success?

I tend to feel that protests alone don't change much. But when protests are combined with debates, writing letters to leaders, with voting for those who line up with your causes, and with any other way of getting your voice heard they can make a difference.

I think it does make it a little easier for politicians to vote against war escalation when they have things like this to point to.

Are there any leaders of the past that you would have followed to protest with, or especially are there any leaders you'd follow today into protest?

[Edited on January 27, 2007 at 2:13 PM. Reason : .]

1/27/2007 2:10:05 PM

Sometimes they do work. Look at when students marched to the Chancellor's house when they tried to close DH. Hill at night. After the protest they ended up opening DH. HIll open again to 24 hrs. On a small scale I believe it works. If 200 students from UNC protest more troops in IRAQ then they aren't doing much. They are pretty much pissing into the wind. It might make them feel better about themselves but besides local TV not many people will hear about it.

1/27/2007 2:16:24 PM

Yea, in a small fishbowl they can have some effect. On the national level, they have no or negative effect.

1/27/2007 2:23:38 PM

Well one of the guys running for president of the US lives in Chapel Hill, so there's some chance important people could hear them even on local news.

There are a few video's on the cnn link I posted. The 2nd one is less than a minute long, but the first was rather silly. It was something like grannies against the war (i've heard of them before on npr) singing anti-war stuff.
----

Are there any local politics issues, small fish bowl stuff, that you'd protest over? Would you ever head to downtown Raleigh to protest against any city or state wide policies or actions? Is city wide to large of a bowl, or state wide? I think maybe even small protests of a couple hundred people over a national issue can lead to a greater atmosphere and know how of protests so that you could have people to mobilize for state & city wide issues as well.

[Edited on January 27, 2007 at 2:29 PM. Reason : .]

1/27/2007 2:25:19 PM

L-O-L

How can you expect to be taken seriously when you associate with Hanoi Jane?

1/27/2007 2:46:08 PM

Quote :

"about 40 people staged a counter protest."

now that is committment to a war.

1/27/2007 3:04:56 PM

Quote :

"If 200 students from UNC protest more troops in IRAQ then they aren't doing much. They are pretty much pissing into the wind. It might make them feel better about themselves but besides local TV not many people will hear about it."

but when you get 200 from each of 100 different schools, it starts to make a diff.......you have to start somewhere. It helps more than bitching to yourself on the couch.

1/27/2007 3:10:52 PM

it would be a lot more effective for each of them to sit on their ass.
so long as they spent the time sending letters or emails to different congressman.

1/27/2007 3:22:21 PM

I think someone who protests is also the kind of person who will make time to send letters.

You seem alot less radical than your name would imply revoltnow.

Has anyone here ever sent a letter to a law maker?
-
http://www.wchl1360.com/details.html?id=131

I was listening to 91.5 NPR about the protest stuff earlier today, I wonder what the Chapel Hill-Carrboro news and talk station, which has broadcast alot of air america stuff, would have had to say about it?

[Edited on January 27, 2007 at 3:27 PM. Reason : .]

1/27/2007 3:24:32 PM

there is a big difference between jerking off in front of the post office on franklin street and actually changing the country.

1/27/2007 3:29:12 PM

Quote :

"it would be a lot more effective for each of them to sit on their ass. so long as they spent the time sending letters or emails to different congressman."

so they can have their secretaries or an intern stamp a generic response letter with their signature?

1/27/2007 3:29:32 PM

I still think it’s the “some of everything” approach that works best with articles in the paper, speaking out at different community meetings, voting in accordance with your cause, and writing letters to leaders. Sure they might not read each individual letter, but they will probably have some of the best filtered through and probably be told the total number of letters they received on any given topic or cause.

Quote :

"Celebrities speak out More Hollywood celebrities showed up at the demonstration than buttoned-down Washington typically sees in a month. Actor Sean Penn said lawmakers will pay a price in the 2008 elections if they do not take firmer action than to pass a nonbinding resolution against the war, the course Congress is now taking. (Watch how five dozen speakers preceded the anti-war march ) "If they don't stand up and make a resolution as binding as the death toll, we're not going to be behind those politicians," he said. Actors Susan Sarandon, Tim Robbins and Danny Glover also spoke. Fonda was a lightning rod in the Vietnam era for her outspoken opposition to that war and her advocacy from Hanoi at the height of that conflict. Sensitive to the old wounds, she made it a point Saturday to thank the active-duty service-members, veterans and Gold Star mothers who attended the rally. The House Judiciary Committee chairman, Rep. John Conyers, threatened to use congressional spending power to try to stop the war. "George Bush has a habit of firing military leaders who tell him the Iraq war is failing," he said, looking out at the masses. "He can't fire you." Referring to Congress, the Michigan Democrat added: "He can't fire us. "The founders of our country gave our Congress the power of the purse because they envisioned a scenario exactly like we find ourselves in today. Now only is it in our power, it is our obligation to stop Bush." "

CNN

[Edited on January 27, 2007 at 3:49 PM. Reason : .]

1/27/2007 3:40:47 PM

In short, Protest do work.

1/27/2007 3:45:56 PM

Quote :

" Look at when students marched to the Chancellor's house when they tried to close DH. Hill at night. After the protest they ended up opening DH. HIll open again to 24 hrs."

i was there, that was awesome. We made Mary Anne get out of her bed and come to the door

1/27/2007 3:49:26 PM

marye

1/27/2007 3:52:02 PM

^ yeah, and her too

1/27/2007 3:56:05 PM

if you still haven't heard that that whole incident was staged by student gov. with the full cooperation of the administration, well, then... damn son.

now, if you want to hear about a legit underground protest that did cause changes in the university, i remember a group of about 6 or so TWWers who almost singlehandedly brought back Student Patrol after the administration tried to kill the program during the summer without consulting the student body.

[Edited on January 27, 2007 at 4:13 PM. Reason : s]

1/27/2007 4:11:40 PM

What causes are there that people care about now? I can follow the campus community goings on to a degree through friends and contacts, tww, and technician, but I’ve still been away almost a year.

During my time there I got to be parts of things like the petition effort to allow opposite sex roommates, mu beta psi’s music & art’s advocacy, and be involved with campaigns of various student government positions.

Is there anything people could rally around now? What about the Hillsborough street revitalization stuff with the round abouts that a lot of people want but that keep getting nixed.

People are divided on large scale stuff, but everyone seems to feel atleast protesting can help on a small scale. Would you come out to a rally for Hillsborough Street revitalization? If not, is there another cause that you would come out for as long as someone else was organizing it? Is there any cause you’d help organize for?

1/27/2007 4:37:18 PM

^^ staged? of course the SG organized it, but it wasnt staged. and full cooperation of the admin? again, where do you get this grand "conspiracy"?

SG alerted public safety and the administration to tell them what they were doing, so as to not cause an incident.

but it was along the lines of "we're coming to your house and were bringing a shitload of people with us. you might want to get dressed and come out." I was walking beside some of the SG people as they were making these calls en route.

i was in the middle of it. the core organizers (SG) rallied everyone they could get that day, then anyone they could find at DH Hill Library that night. I was studying there, everyone just grabbed their bags and joined the mob.

Marye Anne and the rest of the admin, had to scramble to find other sources of operating income that they would have gotten by cutting the library budget.

SO, if this was all a grand orchestrated conspiracy, what was the end goal? what sort of agenda was being pulled behind the curtains of this charade?





[Edited on January 27, 2007 at 4:50 PM. Reason : ]

1/27/2007 4:49:08 PM

protesting by having a few hundred or thousand people show up at a college administrator's house or office is one thing.
having 200 people stand in the street in chapel hill over a us government policy is quite another.

and bush doesnt listen to REPUBLICAN congressmen that want out of iraq. why would he listen to a few thousand protesters? especially when 10 times that many (at least) showed up to try and keep us out of there in the first place.

1/27/2007 5:05:44 PM

they work against people who don't have very strong convictions

1/27/2007 5:08:44 PM

I don't think its all about bush hearing them, its about people going to the polls hearing them too. Being for or against national policies can affect politicians on a local level, especially in a city like the one franklin street runs through.

1/27/2007 5:11:35 PM

Quote :

"Boone: I'm fairly convinced that protests have the opposite effect they're meant to."

Quote :

"McDanger: having 200 people stand in the street in chapel hill over a us government policy is (ineffective)"

so you are saying that the people who protest against national issues are ineffective at best, or even counterproductive?

i disagree.

the protesters' actions does at least three things that helps advance their cause.

(1) it redirects the substance of the local/regional/national debate. it forces people, the media, and the governement to *think* about the protesters' position. it forces the protesters' opponents to be on the defensive, to have to spend their capital in *refuting* what the protesters claim, rather than continuing to advance the agenda that the protesters are against. this buys the protesters' faction more time to manuever.

(2) the protesters influence people who see them. people who might feel the same way as teh protesters, but think that they are either alone or are too insignificant to do anything about it. it gives other people courage to express their opinions publically, and maybe contribute resources to the effort. all of this leads to a dynamic where you can develop a real groundswell of public response. it can take a lot of time and repetitive effort, but if the protesters work long and hard enough, they can influence sections of the public to be likewise more vocal and active. eventually the elected leaders will start hearing this group. one way or another.

Witness the elections past november.

(3) it also just simply energizes the base. it reinforces the people who are already involved to stay involved and even step up their efforts. it maintains and strengthens their network.







[Edited on January 27, 2007 at 5:42 PM. Reason : third item]

1/27/2007 5:33:48 PM

mcdanger isnt here right now. thanks for playing though.


im not saying its a waste of time, and im not saying its counterproductive. its that there are actions that are more effective. this election wasnt won by people waving signs on street corners. plain and simple.

1/27/2007 5:50:55 PM

speculation: it simultaneously endebted SG to the administration and increased SG's legitimacy in the eyes of the student body

I honestly don't know the motivations behind the whole fiasco - but i do know it was staged through and through

1/27/2007 6:00:29 PM

McDanger RevoltNow

whoops . i can totally differentiate you two. sorry. i was thinking about a previous thread.

again, i disagree. the signwavers and constant protesters did their part to help coalesce the various dissatisfied parties. for almost the first four years, BushCo practically dominated the media, and had media blindly reporting white house "press releases" as news.

it took constant barrage of dissenters and protesters to finally shake the public out of its stupor into realizing that "yes, shit is really fucked up with this country and the way the Administration is running things", and "no, Im not the only one who thinks so."

1/27/2007 6:07:13 PM

Quote :

"I honestly don't know the motivations behind the whole fiasco - but i do know it was staged through and through"

whatever. you're gonna have to come up with something a bit more credible than your personal, unsubstantiated opinion, and whatever hearsay may have influenced that.

I was there. I was involved peripherially in SG as a representative on the CHASS Council. I was Cc'd on the emails from the SG organizers as they were in the process of organizing the protest -- *that very day*

The whole thing was arranged in a day, spur of the moment, as an emergency action, because the entire cutting of the budget for DH Hill LIbrary operation was such a surprise, and there was such resentment about being left out of the loop on it.

I wasnt going to participate cause i had a lot of work to do, and i was cynical about student governtment and protests in general.

the SG organized that afternoon and evening, and then made rounds through DH Hill, where i was studying at the big tables downstairs. they roused everyone they could out of the library, and got them marching in a mob to the Chancellors Residence.

The SG organizers, I was right beside them. THey were calling Public Safety. They were calling contacts in teh Administration. THey were literally saying, "Hey. We have a group of several hundred students and we're marching to Fox's house *right now*. Be Advised, we are coming and we want an audience with Chancellor Fox."

it was real, it was live, it was immediate, and it was unscripted.

i dont know what youre bitter about, SG in general or some people on it specifically, i dont even remember anyone's name. but it was a success. Real administration policy was changed. Real money was moved.





[Edited on January 27, 2007 at 6:19 PM. Reason : ]

1/27/2007 6:17:32 PM

Usually, I let silly comments go by, but I can't resist...

Quote :

"the signwavers and constant protesters media did their part to help coalesce undermine the war effort in order to unite the various dissatisfied parties by harping on the negatives. for almost the first four years, BushCo practically dominated the media, and had media blindly reporting white house "press releases" as news has been hounded by the media, and as the old saying goes, if you say something long enough people will start to believe it. "

[Edited on January 27, 2007 at 6:36 PM. Reason : ]

1/27/2007 6:35:54 PM

^ LOL, that's just classic.

you are such a caricature. what makes it priceless is that you believe every bit of it.

Megadittos, dude. Megadittos.






[Edited on January 27, 2007 at 7:06 PM. Reason : cant spell. ]

1/27/2007 6:54:58 PM

Say a little prayer for bush tonight. After all, he's had to sacrifice so much

1/27/2007 7:35:31 PM

^^ I could easily say the same thing about you. Anybody who thinks that CNN, ABC, CBS, et. al. carried water for the Bush Administration should be laughed at and poked repeatedly with a stick.

1/27/2007 8:37:37 PM

Are there any pictures around of the march on the chancellor's house protest?

1/27/2007 8:44:32 PM

Quote :

"^^ I could easily say the same thing about you. Anybody who thinks that CNN, ABC, CBS, et. al. carried water for the Bush Administration should be laughed at and poked repeatedly with a stick."

that's not the job of the media.

1/27/2007 9:00:02 PM

From what I just heard on NPR on my way to pick up dinner from pizza hut, was that the protests got up to tens of thousands and that nearly a dozen congressmen were involved. So I think the law makers, people who choose to fund or not fund war, were listening.

1/27/2007 9:07:19 PM

I think it can appeal to people in a bystander-effect kind of way, and also helps build awareness, so they are not completely pointless, just mostly pointless. Appealing to the media (op-eds) and letter writing are more efficient, I would guess.

1/27/2007 10:18:17 PM

I attended the DC Rally today and had the time of my life. Met some amazing people, had deep, genuine conversations, fought for a noble cause and enjoyed a gorgeous day in the nation's capital. The reports of a few thousand people are bullshit. There were at least 10K, EASILY.

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4620200 - Absolutely beautiful day.

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4620192

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4620194 - Gathering of people closest to the stage. People were crowded to the left as far as the eye could see on the lawn. Then there were people standing along side of the march route that didn't assemble at the rally point.

Yes, protests are effective. By witnessing thousands and thousands of people gathering for a common purpose, bystanders realize that it is okay, even encouragable, to stand up for what they believe. Public protests get the message out to the general public in the best way. Someone sitting behind a computer sending letters to their congressman is going to get nowhere if he can't persuade others to join the fight with him. Not to mention, even though unlikely, changing the minds of one or two congressman will do nothing to shift the vote in your favor across the entire country.

There's another march on the Pentagon on March 17th. I encourage anybody who wants to stand up and let their voice be heard to attend.

1/28/2007 1:34:59 AM

All the protests that worked in the 60s and 70s depended on whom was protesting -- mainly, average, middle class families looking for a better life. For Vietnam, the issue had wide appeal because of the draft. For black voting rights, the issue affected an entire race.

People aren't that sympathetic to the perception of Iraq war protesters. Coverage of these protesters hardly focuses on the iraq war vets and the families of killed soldiers among them -- those who would draw the most sympathy. Frankly, most of us are not affected by it and don't know people who have been killed or wounded in the war.

Families of volunteer military folks tend to be well "indoctrinated," so they aren't going to protest in the same way as families of draftees did.

[Edited on January 28, 2007 at 1:48 AM. Reason : 45]

1/28/2007 1:47:22 AM

^^Cool pics/way to spend a day. I, other than talking about protests online, only got some much needed cleaning, chores, and shopping done, and drove out of my way to the honk if you're against the war people area in chapel hill.

"There's another march on the Pentagon on March 17th"

^^Are you going back for to protest on that Sat too?


http://www.campusblender.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=252750
Here's the other online place I've discussed it. I tend to run parallel threads on tww & cb (since it includes schools from all over, with a sizable numbers of chapel hillians) whenever I make a thread.



[Edited on January 28, 2007 at 2:20 AM. Reason : ]

1/28/2007 2:12:47 AM

Quote :

"There's another march on the Pentagon on March 17th"

Fuck with the niggas with the guns and you might get shot

1/28/2007 2:39:43 AM

This guy has a gun, and he doesn't seem to mind too much


What do people think of the notion of supporting our troops by pushing to bring them home?
(see the sign at the bottom right)

1/28/2007 10:58:21 AM

Quote :

"What do people think of the notion of supporting our troops by pushing to bring them home?"

Awhile ago the republicans started this idea that wanting to bring troops home was not supporting them. I think that this is completely off base, and would eve make the argument that families and supporters of our troops have an obligation to demand justification for the use of our troops. Being in the military is a incredibly noble thing to do, by joining you agree to serve wherever you are told to go. Your set aside your voice to serve the greater good of the country, so it falls on the voices of family members and supporters to demand a just cause for the use of our troops. You can support our troops and want them to come home, and in the event of an unjustifiable war this is what every supporter should be demanding.

1/28/2007 11:39:09 AM

"the republicans started this idea"

Some republicans anyways, there are definitely plenty of them who are ready to get out of this war now too.

Quote :

"You set aside your voice to serve the greater good of the country, so it falls on the voices of family members and supporters to demand a just cause for the use of our troops."

I like the way that was worded, and I agree with that sentiment.

1/28/2007 11:52:34 AM

Quote :

"What do people think of the notion of supporting our troops by pushing to bring them home?"

In my experience people who actually have loved ones in Iraq understand this. >1/3 of the kids I teach have relatives in the Army, and I'd be extremely hard-pressed to find someone who supported the continuation/escalation of the conflict.

My only real-life experiences with people who didn't understand the concept were ditto-heads with nothing at stake in the war.

1/28/2007 12:48:46 PM

Protests in and of themselves don't "work"

They should be part of a larger grassroots campaign and often coupled with a broadcast message as well. Even Civil Rights protests and Women's Suffrage demonstrations in and of themselves did not "work"...it was that they were a component of larger campaigns and used as tools. In their use as tools, they work, as long as people notice them. They're often not designed to change the average individual's opinion as they are to attempt to cement beliefs of people who are in the middle

1/28/2007 2:43:10 PM

Protests are simply a tool, not an end all be all. As joe_schmoe mentioned, a successful protest or march is useful as a way to rally and encourage the faithful, shift the public attention toward a particular issue, and to a smaller extent, make people reconsider and rethink their positions. However, if the organizers fail to follow up the protest with other political tools such as lobbying, letter writing, or something else, then the momentum built is wasted.

The protest needs to be on scale with the cause that its fighting. As someone mentioned, you'd only need a few hundred students to sway the Chancellor about library hours, but if you wanted to sway national policy, you'd need hundreds of thousands, if not millions, gathered in one or two areas to create the sort of shock value needed to draw the public's attention. Also, any follow up protests for the same cause would probably need a greater shock value: larger numbers, more extreme stunts (think Sheehan in Venezuela), to again pique the public's interest. So in summary, yes protests can work, but they must be a part of a greater strategy and must have enough shock value to gather public support.

1/28/2007 3:08:37 PM

A protest is only effective when the message is contained. The problem with most modern protests is they are nothing more than a flea market for the various causes around the world. When you have a protest against escalating the war, you don't need (nor want) people protesting our lack of action in Dafur, or protesting our general support of Israel or handing out copies of the anarchist cook book or doing songs and dances about global warming. Not because these are not relevant or important issues to people, but because they weaken the overall message of the protest and fragment it. When the people protesting aren't all protesting for the same things, it doesn't matter if thousands show. Take the library for example, if the crowd that gathered was composed mostly of druken frat boys looking for an excuse to make noise, people protesting parking issues on campus and others protesting tuition hikes, do you think it would have had nearly the same effect?

Protest organizers need to seriously do some quality control if protests are to be effective at all.

1/28/2007 3:17:17 PM

^^ sheehan in venezuela was shocking but didn't help her cause at all

1/28/2007 3:25:26 PM

Atleast the recent protests in washington and around the US, in addition to sizable numbers, have the "follow up" protest planned for march the 17th and had a few big names and some of congress participating.

For something small scale, like hillsborough street revitalization, what would the protest look like/need to be? Its been and issue in the back and sometimes front of peoples minds for some time now, its made it into the technician, and it was an issue that all the people running for SG pres last time around addressed to some degree. I think it has the longevity needed, so whats next?

Could a rally on hillsborough street do any good? How would it get attention? I know some people oppose round abouts and parking lanes because they want to use hillsborough as a highway to downtown and basically bypass & ignore the campus. Would a well timed rally, with people crossing the street slowly at several crosswalks and slowing down traffic get attention? Would anyone come out for something like that? Or write alot of viewpoint articles for the tech in favor of revitalization?
---

Anyone who thinks a small scale protest/rally can work. Use the revitalization of hillsborough street as an example. What elements would need to be there to make it work?

1/28/2007 4:58:50 PM