^^ i don't recall the Black Panthers having ever lynched white men in the dead of the night and burned down their house in front of the wife and children.... or having executed 6 million jews in gas chambers and ovens.

sorry, try again.

you people might want to explore your white guilt that forces you to react so fearfully at any suggestion of minorities standing up for their rights.



[Edited on June 24, 2008 at 12:03 PM. Reason : ]

6/24/2008 12:02:19 PM

^ So, black militants have never killed, injured, or threatened anyone? You try again.



[Edited on June 24, 2008 at 12:09 PM. Reason : Hint: And you and your pals are missing the goddamned point--again. ]

6/24/2008 12:08:24 PM

No hooksaw, actually you're missing the point.

A pin from a group is completely different from a noose or a burning cross in someones yard. None of them are good, but there is a different (yet possibly similar) message.

My point is - make hate crimes felonies, not some stupid tangible objects which are results of hate crimes.

6/24/2008 12:12:41 PM

^^ are you THAT STUPID?

are you really completely unable to grasp the concept of scale, of systemic oppression, versus isolated events?

are you that completely INCAPABLE OF LOGICAL THOUGHT?

how the fuck did you get into grad school?





[Edited on June 24, 2008 at 12:19 PM. Reason : ]

6/24/2008 12:19:09 PM

^ First, STFU about that. Don't start with your stupidity.

Second, it's not about the goddamned pin, you dumbasses. Let me break it down for you: What if, say, the widow of this slain cop saw the black power symbol painted outside her home? Don't you think she'd feel terrorized?

7 Veteran Black Panther Party Members Indicted in 35-Year-Old Death of San Francisco Cop

Quote :

"SAN FRANCISCO, Jan. 23 — Eight men, including seven described as members of the radical Black Liberation Army, were arrested on Tuesday on charges of murdering a police officer here in 1971 and waging a violent five-year battle against the police and federal authorities. The arrests, in morning raids in California, Florida and New York capped an investigation by San Francisco police into the murder of Sgt. John V. Young, who was killed by a shotgun at a desk in the Ingleside stationhouse on Aug. 29, 1971. A civilian clerk was wounded."

http://panafricannews.blogspot.com/2007/01/7-veteran-black-panther-party-members.html

Where does the criminilization of symbols end?

6/24/2008 12:36:29 PM

A pin is a symbol, a noose and a burning cross are not symbols, they are actual things.

6/24/2008 12:37:42 PM

^ IT'S NOT ABOUT THE FUCKING PIN, YOU DUMB MOTHERFUCKER--IT JUST HAPPENS TO BE THE IMAGE I CHOSE. IT'S ABOUT THE GODDAMNED SYMBOL ON THE PIN, YOU FUCKING STUPID IDIOT!!!1

JESUS H. CHRIST!!!1

6/24/2008 12:39:43 PM

So you're saying black men making fists is the same as burning a cross or putting a noose in someones yard?

6/24/2008 12:44:28 PM

Quote :

"if it can be shown they picked her because she was white or educated then yes. And also doubly for the injun guy they supposedly killed too. "

Kind of like how they should have to prove the otherwise innocent piece of rope with a knot on it; in my yard is an outwardly directed threat toward people of certain races.

Quote :

"don't recall the Black Panthers having ever lynched white men in the dead of the night and burned down their house in front of the wife and children"

Didn't 6 thugs in Louisiana beat the shit out this white dude nearly killing him. Then when the 6 guys went to court the black community went up screaming outrage demanding the release of the 6 thugs who committed their crime only b.c of ongoing racial tensions . What was that shit called ...... the Jena 6. Something tells me that a white guy out with his girlfriend would not have been stupid enough to start screaming the N-word or other racial slurs when he's outnumbered 6:1. I see this as a hate crime.

People like schmoe who make excuses and cry about past injustices is what gives certain people within certain minority groups the power to continue their anti-social attitudes/behaviors in which they blame others for their problems. Feeling that the gov't owes them and they have no reason to work hard to achieve like every other american.

6/24/2008 12:48:13 PM

^^ Context! A cross in Sunday church service, not a problem. A cross burning on a lawn? Yeah, it probably is a problem.

The closed fist of "black power" could be interpreted in the same way. Can some of you really not see this and how far the criminilization and banning of symbols could go? If you can't, that may be one reason I got into grad school and you didn't.

6/24/2008 12:55:33 PM

You totally missed my ENTIRE argument. I said the symbols of hate are bad, but they shouldn't be crimes in and of themselves - the actual crime should be what the person is charged with.

It's in the same line as sodomy laws the way I see it - we don't need to pile charges on people because the crime we charge them isn't adequate, change the penalty for the actual charge.

6/24/2008 12:59:53 PM

Snankin,

wow. you really missed hookshaw's point by a country mile.

You've added context to your examples and taken it away from his. You contrasted an abstract image of image of a black man raising a fist outside of time and space with a specific example of someone hanging a noose (possibly burning a cross) in someone elses's yard. In this framing it is easy for one to see a burning cross or noose hanging from a tree in their lawn as a threat, and to feel nothing at all for some floating, abstract image of a fist.

Talk about a poor use of rhetorical misdirection.

If you really wanted to have an honest conversation, you would have considered hookshaw's example in a specific physical setting as he layed out. Clearly, painting that symbol outside the home of someone who's family was assaulted by black panthers would mean something totally different than if you simply post in a TWW thread. Just in the same way that hanging a noose or burning cross outside a blackman's home would mean something totally different than if you hung it outside a white man's home.

Of course, that's only if you wanted to have an honest conversation.

[Edited on June 24, 2008 at 1:03 PM. Reason : typos]

6/24/2008 1:01:23 PM

Quote :

"Clearly, painting that symbol outside the home of someone who's family was assaulted by black panthers would mean something totally different than if you simply post in a TWW thread."

He never laid that example out. He presented a pin with the symbol of the black panthers and said it was the same as a noose or burning cross.

In the example YOU lay out then I concede the point that it is equally as bad, however I do not believe that symbols of an organization represent hate crimes in themselves (though they may be extremely tasteless in the case of Black Panthers, KKK, Nazi, or any other slew of racial groups emblems).


And if you read my posts again, which you may need to do - I say none of these, symbols or direct representations, are crimes in themselves, it is the actual crime (racial intimidation through burning a cross in someones yard, etc) that should be punished.

6/24/2008 1:08:37 PM

Quote :

"You totally missed my ENTIRE argument. I said the symbols of hate are bad, but they shouldn't be crimes in and of themselves - the actual crime should be what the person is charged with. It's in the same line as sodomy laws the way I see it - we don't need to pile charges on people because the crime we charge them isn't adequate, change the penalty for the actual charge."

The symbols are not crimes in and of themselves. Using these symbols to intimidate someone else is what the law is supposed to address.

PS* That example comes straight from Hookshaw's post. Scroll up

[Edited on June 24, 2008 at 1:11 PM. Reason : ``]

6/24/2008 1:08:38 PM

^^ You're a fucking liar. Read my posts again.

Quote :

"What if, say, the widow of this slain cop saw the black power symbol painted outside her home? Don't you think she'd feel terrorized?"

hooksaw

http://thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=531060&page=2

^^^ Yes. And I would simply ask where does it end? I mean, the color pink has even been banned in some schools.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1568/is_3_36/ai_n6172306

Where does it end?

[Edited on June 24, 2008 at 1:14 PM. Reason : .]

6/24/2008 1:10:52 PM

Quote :

"Didn't 6 thugs in Louisiana beat the shit out this white dude nearly killing him."

oh please... are you really this stupid too?

one white guy gets beat up, and that equals centuries of systemic, organized lynchings and terror.

okay.

you and Hooksaw and Socks go on. keep dancing around like retards at a retard party.

6/24/2008 2:25:34 PM

stupid law

nothing but pandering for votes


Joe, what year is it? I dont remember growing up with any lynching parties.. you?

6/24/2008 3:27:59 PM

being that my family is from Johnston County, NC, i remember good and well the huge sign on Highway 70 crossing the Wake/Johnston line:

Quote :

"Welcome to Johnston County, headquarters of the North Carolina Ku Klux Klan"

that sign stood for decades, until it was torn down in the late 80's.

I also lived in Southhaven Mississippi for a time in the early 90's and there was a KKK rally that marched right down the main street. not a real pleasant time considering folks there directly remember a man being lynched by the KKK less than 10 years prior.

this is real. people really died. men were hung from trees, women and babies were burned alive in their houses, and for decades white folks in the south turned a blind eye, covered it up, lied for people at all levels of the court system to protect their good white neighbors and community leaders.



[Edited on June 24, 2008 at 4:47 PM. Reason : ]

6/24/2008 4:45:31 PM

Quote :

"this is real. people really died. men were hung from trees, women and babies were burned alive in their houses, and for decades white folks in the south turned a blind eye, covered it up, lied for people at all levels of the court system to protect their good white neighbors and community leaders."

Just like you are turning a blind eye to the crimes black people committed against whites back then too.

6/24/2008 4:56:50 PM

if it doesnt effect me why cant it not affect everyone...thats what i dont get about politics(abortion, etc)

6/24/2008 4:58:01 PM

^^

shut the fuck up, you stupid cunt.








[Edited on June 24, 2008 at 5:24 PM. Reason : unsubscribed.]

6/24/2008 5:13:15 PM

rainman,

joe_schmoe is a sexist too.

[Edited on June 24, 2008 at 5:45 PM. Reason : ``]

6/24/2008 5:43:47 PM

"women and babies were burned alive in their houses"...?

C'mon, Joe, really? What the fuck is that bullshit?

6/24/2008 5:59:00 PM

Quote :

" one white guy gets beat up, and that equals centuries of systemic, organized lynchings and terror."

two wrongs don't justify a right

6/24/2008 6:04:12 PM

Quote :

"a similar argument could be made for giving longer sentences to cop killers (it's not just an assault against a person, it's an assault on the rule of law and our society as a whole)."

Cops aren't "our society" they don't uphold "the law", they are a menace to our safety and a cancer on an otherwise peaceful, productive society. The problems they claim to exist in order to address are, in most cases, problems of their own creation. Cops are disease agents masquerading as their own cure.

Yes, I'm allowed to make outrageous assertions without providing the slightest bit of support because I've been over this all before.

http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=528022
http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=526608
http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=469081

6/25/2008 4:04:34 PM

Get that trash out of my thread.

6/25/2008 4:38:50 PM

Quote :

"Because painting a pot leaf in the middle of the road in front of your friend's house is a less serious crime than painting a swastika in the middle of the road in front of your black/jewish/homosexual neighbors' house. "

How do you figure? Both are vandalism, are they not?

Quote :

"oh please... are you really this stupid too? one white guy gets beat up, and that equals centuries of systemic, organized lynchings and terror. okay. "

Oh, so only after centuries of white guys getting beaten up simply for being white will you accept that as a hate crime? Is that what you are saying?

6/25/2008 8:03:11 PM

Quote :

"one white guy gets beat up, and that equals centuries of systemic, organized lynchings and terror."

for one, i still can't believe people act like blacks were the only people ever hung from a noose. aside from the ridiculous media sensation created by recent events like the toilet paper noose... any time i hear the word or read it my first thought a majority of the time consists of hangings in the old west for murderers and horse thieves. and the quote i just took is completely off-base. one white guy, or any color person getting beaten up is wrong regardless of history. and a black guy getting beaten up doesn't make him any more special than a white guy getting beaten up, i'm sorry it just doesn't. there are a million kinds of hate. racial hate doesn't make any crime worse or less at the end of the day. the crime still happened and it's still punishable by law. FWIW, racism is a terrible thing... no person should be hated because of what color they are. sadly though, people have the right to hate someone else if they want to. someone can hate me because i'm white, and that'd be too bad, but it'd be their personal problem. an assault against me would be just that, be it committed by that racist that hates me, or someone else.

[Edited on June 26, 2008 at 2:45 AM. Reason : ]

6/26/2008 2:41:16 AM

Whoo-boy, this issue is a toughie for me.

Let me be perfectly honest: If you told me that tomorrow I could round up and execute every fucking backwoods proto-fascist that ever used these symbols to intimidate another human being, I'd do it. I'd pull the switch/trigger/plunger on as many of them as I was physically able. I'd throw a fucking party on the anniversary of the occasion every year. Open bar, if anyone's interested.

Sadly, of course, I can't do this, mainly because neither I nor anyone else has perfect knowledge of who has done such a thing, and there are bound to be those very few who used similar symbols in some other capacity. And in spite of frequent inclinations to the contrary, I'd rather not execute them with the bathwater.

Er, uh...you know what I meant.

While I may occasionally take issue with the specifics with which "hate crime" laws are implemented, I don't deny their validity. Most murders fall into one category, having been committed in accordance with the sorts of motives that haven't routinely destroyed societies: psychosis, desperation, and passion, among others. But occasionally you run into this type of murder (or other crime) that stems purely from one groups hate for another. And that has destroyed societies, governments, and, if you want to be dramatic, civilizations. Not to invoke Godwin's law, but the Holocaust didn't jump straight to genocide. There were several steps of "ethnic intimidation" in there that led up to it, crimes that would otherwise have been mere "vandalism." The same sort of thinking led to the federal government turning a fairly blind eye to Jim Crow.

Point being, of course, that failure to recognize certain crimes as motivated by hate has led to much worse things down the road (and, of course, I'm referring to a specific kind of hate here, so don't start with the "all crimes are hate crimes" bullshit that some of you love to trot out). Of course, it's very easy to say that such things couldn't happen here. I beg to differ. As it happens, plenty of history is on my side, so fuck you.

As for the OP, I don't think that nooses and burning crosses should, in themselves, be crimes. Their use as means of intimidation certainly should be. There's some room for discretion there, that generally I trust to be up to a jury and the courts. We don't need another law here, really -- we need far harsher punishments for certain individuals who violate the current laws.



[Edited on June 26, 2008 at 6:36 AM. Reason : may be some typos in here]

6/26/2008 6:35:44 AM

Another stuffy, mostly redundant, feel-good law that will do absolutely no good. Just like most other laws aimed at creating affirmitive action and protected classes.

Laws shouldn't be used as a form of expression, folks.

6/26/2008 9:47:27 AM

Quote :

"Laws shouldn't be used as a form of expression, folks."

What?

Laws by their design are a form of expression.

6/26/2008 11:24:39 AM

lol, here I was looking forward to reading a thread that SkankinMonky started. Then I saw that hooksaw posted and ruined everything by turning it into yet another "YOUR ARGUMENT TACTICS ARE DUMB" "NO, YOURS ARE" "NO, YOU'RE STUPID" thread.

This is why I lurk on TSB.

6/27/2008 10:01:56 PM

Quote :

"I don't think that nooses and burning crosses should, in themselves, be crimes. Their use as means of intimidation certainly should be."

Where is the line drawn?

I mean, do you permit a cross-burning at a Klan rally on private property? If it occurs as a means of intimidation on someone else's property, there are other laws to take care of that. What about two adjacent pieces of property, one owned by a Klansman the other owned by a black man. Does a cross burning on the Klansman's property fall under hate crime, or is it protected by the 1st Ammendment?

I'm asking this as a pragmatic question.

6/28/2008 12:21:31 AM

h thought a slip knot with 13 turns was already illegal

6/28/2008 10:54:21 AM

^depends on the HOA

But seriously, and out of curiosity, what do you get if you intimidate someone with a gun? I mean like point it at them and act like you are going to shoot them.

6/28/2008 11:27:45 AM

Assault with a deadly weapon at minimum. In texas, you also get shot.

6/28/2008 12:25:54 PM

Quote :

"Where is the line drawn?"

I'm generally a fan of stipulations in laws along the lines of "what a reasonable person would think," because I don't like to hamstring juries or give them free reign.

Beyond that, we could use other laws regarding restrictions on free speech as a model. Public decency laws, for example, are pretty ubiquitous in the western world and have thus far been supported in this country by the people and the courts. They've managed to define a line between places you can be naked and places you can't be naked, and in a lot of cases the very same line works for cross burnings.

In the case of your example regarding a klansman's property being adjacent to a black man's. The klansman can be naked as a jaybird wherever people outside of his property can't see him. Make it the same way with cross burnings. If his property is situated in such a way that he can have one without his neighbor seeing it from his or public property, let him and his buddies have at it. They can even burn it naked if they really want.

Nooses and, to a lesser extent, burning crosses also carry an inherent message of violence regardless of their part in the history of race relations. I suppose nooses could have a purpose other than hanging, but it's not widely known.* And burning crosses are in themselves safety hazards which could as easily damage people or property as trash fires are, these themselves already being illegal many places. This puts them in contrast to, say, klan robes, which may also be intimidating and even serve to conceal the identity of people involved in the commission of a crime, but which themselves are nonlethal and pose no direct threat of violence.

* - I'm aware that nooses represent a category of knots including many that have practical, nonviolent applications. However, the term is used interchangeably with the hangman's noose, which does not. So please don't start claiming that I want to ban running bowlines.


[Edited on June 29, 2008 at 4:14 AM. Reason : trying to pre-empt some semantics]

6/29/2008 4:12:03 AM

Quote :

"lol, here I was looking forward to reading a thread that SkankinMonky started. Then I saw that hooksaw posted and ruined everything by turning it into yet another 'YOUR ARGUMENT TACTICS ARE DUMB' 'NO, YOURS ARE' 'NO, YOU'RE STUPID' thread. This is why I lurk on TSB."

ScottyP

Actually, I made a perfectly legitimate point, which some here got right away--I guess you weren't one of them. Then, I was promptly attacked by rabid barking moonbats and their allies--you know, the usual.

If you're going to lurk and only make the occasional post, try not to pile on. I get more than my share of negative attention here, thanks.

6/29/2008 6:32:28 AM

Quote :

"I get more than my share of negative attention here, thanks."

You love every minute of it.

6/29/2008 9:06:43 AM

^ That's absolutely false. I'd much rather have just a discussion, with no barbs being thrown--try me and you'll see.

6/29/2008 11:40:59 PM

okay, hooksaw, lets have an honest discussion.

i'll start: why are you such a gay moonbat?

6/30/2008 1:07:28 AM

I'm rather fond of my points and look forward to a response.

6/30/2008 4:06:14 AM