2/13/2009 10:25:35 PM

Quote :

"^^^ in his dickheaded xenophone way, he's saying that it's kinda like being on the Olympic basketball team for Poland or Nepal or something. In the grand scheme of the things, you're an extremely good basketball player. Up against our Dream Team, you're going to look like a scrub."

Of course all the foreign kids are smarter than the average US student. No one is going to make the investment or take the risk to send a dumb, or even average, student overseas for education.

As a white bread American, I resent comments like:

Quote :

"These kids do nothing, while living on their gov't subsidy, except sit in the library to study engineering 24/7."

Those kids are doing something. In fact, they're doing exactly what they're here to do. They do it because that's what it takes for them to be successful.

If you don't want to put in the same effort, that's fine. Different people have different priorities and go to school for different reasons. Just don't complain when your grades are lower than someone who puts in the extra academic effort.

Quote :

"If i was a professor i'd surely be assisting and showing leniency towards the American students versus the study robots that come over from Obligdush India and sit in the computer lab til 3 am every saturday."

Leniency towards American students. Yeah, that will make things better.

[Edited on February 13, 2009 at 10:42 PM. Reason : ]

2/13/2009 10:41:37 PM

Isn't leniency basically what we're discussing (and complaining about) here anyway?

2/14/2009 2:09:47 AM

Quote :

"Those kids are doing something. In fact, they're doing exactly what they're here to do. They do it because that's what it takes for them to be successful. If you don't want to put in the same effort, that's fine. Different people have different priorities and go to school for different reasons. Just don't complain when your grades are lower than someone who puts in the extra academic effort."

Well, there is a point he is trying to make, that you seem to ignore. NCSU, is a state school, that is supported by state taxes and federal taxes. A lot of American students have to work when they go to school, thus can't spend all there time in the library, some also like to have one or two friends. It's a problem when Universities take in all these foreign students who are being subsidized by their home countries, over American students. Why? Because we fund the Universities. Now if a private school wants to do that fine, but a school like NCSU should prioritize in-state students, then US students, then lastly foreign students. Also, a ton of these foreign students don't truly meet english language requirements but somehow get in, don't know how. So you get a TA that can't teach because they can't communicate with the students, thus the students suffer and don't get the education they should.

There is nothing wrong with foreign students, but right now it's starting to get absurd with the amount of Chinese that are in our science/engineering grad programs. There are a lot of graduate programs that over half there students are Chinese. That is really messed up, considering that most Universities are state/federally funded. At a state school, there should be limits on the number of foreign grad students, period.

2/14/2009 6:17:29 AM

^NC State does prioritize in-state students over other students.

That's why there are bright and talented kids from Charlotte and Raleigh (and Boston and China) that don't get accepted. They have to make room for kids from all over the state, even if they aren't well-prepared or smart. And it's hilarious because it's often these idiots who complain about how the admissions process needs to be more merit-based. They don't like diversity initiatives, but the big reason they got in is to fulfill the "small town, shitty school" diversity requirement, which isn't even interesting, but whatever...so, yes, we prioritize in-state students.

Those super smart, hard-working kids from other countries are a blessing, and they do a lot for State's reputation. Graduate schools have always had a more global bent. It's a whole nother academic level that you can't "reserve" for some kids just because they paid state taxes--plus a lot of the money at the graduate level doesn't come from state taxes. If the people who fund research have a problem with international students, they can stop shelling out the dough. But your individual concerns about whether or not American students can keep up with their social lives...kinda meaningless.

I've had a few friends who have gotten into grad school for science and math and nerd shit, and they all have social lives and jobs with the university and they're all doing just fine. They're very smart though...so maybe the people complaining here just aren't very smart?

[Edited on February 14, 2009 at 9:52 AM. Reason : ?]

2/14/2009 9:43:05 AM

It really not a question of being smart here, is about what are you contributing/undermining as a foreign student... Just go back a read real carefully.

2/14/2009 9:47:02 AM

The only point I see as valid is that it would be really fucking annoying to have TAs that couldn't speak English.

However, there are English-speaking TAs that are total shit. Bad TAs are part of what it means to be a university.

And I'm suspicious about just how many don't actually speak English and how many are unpopular just because they're foreign.

2/14/2009 9:51:58 AM

Quote :

"Well, there is a point he is trying to make, that you seem to ignore."

You pulled more out of his post than I did, then. It just sounded like random complaints because dem foreigners tuk our edumucations.

Quote :

"It's a problem when Universities take in all these foreign students who are being subsidized by their home countries, over American students."

Foreign students aren't being selected over American students. Foreign students are being selected because there aren't enough North Carolina/American students to fill the available spots.

Quote :

"It really not a question of being smart here, is about what are you contributing/undermining as a foreign student"

If you're referring to foreign students coming to school and going home when they're done, I would agree with you to a certain extent. The answer isn't educational isolationism, though. We need to:

(1) Raise our own academic standards so that American students are competitive with foreign students.

(2) Modify immigration laws to make it easy for highly educated foreigners to come, work, and stay in the US.

Under no circumstances should academic leniency for American students be an answer.

[Edited on February 14, 2009 at 9:56 AM. Reason : ]

2/14/2009 9:55:44 AM

Yeah, feeling sorry of American/NC student shouldn't be the answer. In fact there really is no real solution to what seems problematic with foreign students. It more of the fact that our society is different from where the abroad student come from, thus we feel the need for balance generally, whereas maybe they don't. And if you think about it, most abroad student probably had nothing else to do at home (in their country) but learn, because they seem to usually come from very poor families. Learning is 'free' while hanging out drinking, shopping, going on trips all cost money that is far-fetched for the typical abroad student. Also another analogy, not many abroad students look physically strong, so if they had to move something heavy they would have to think about it, whereas in America the average guy is stronger or has a friend with a machine (which cost money) that can move it. Basically, differences in our societies I think is what reflects in their work at school. I don't think they are 'smarter' per se, just have more incentive/motivation to excel. A minimum wage job in America, which could provide basic needs for you, is like a good job in those abroad countries in question. So a slacker in American could skate by, but there is no room for slacking in those countries without starving or something of the like. Relatively speaking, if you had the promise of making 150k right out of school if your GPA was a 3.7 or better I would think you bust your ass getting that.

[Edited on February 14, 2009 at 10:20 AM. Reason : /]

2/14/2009 10:08:40 AM

we outsource manufacturing to them and they outsource education to us

what is the problem?

2/14/2009 10:13:27 AM

They don't really contribute anything to American society, in my view, whereas outsourcing jobs to them helps gravely. I don't think your analogy quite works, but I kinda see what you are saying.

2/14/2009 10:16:41 AM

Quote :

"They don't really contribute anything to American society, in my view"

I don't really agree with that. They're doing a lot of research on our campus that benefits the US.

2/14/2009 10:18:10 AM

Technically the PIs are doing the research... They assist and get training which gets them a degree.

2/14/2009 10:19:11 AM

^I call BS.

2/14/2009 11:07:37 AM

Have you ever read a research grant, or collaborated/worked in academics regarding research? I am not trying to be funny or anything by asking that. Sure, student does the work for the most part, buts technically the PI's research, and the data belongs to the PI/grantor. Sometimes a grad student does work that is a continuance of a 10 year grant the the PI most likely got before the grad student came aboard.

[Edited on February 14, 2009 at 11:19 AM. Reason : /]

2/14/2009 11:11:31 AM

You're playing semantics.

2/14/2009 11:25:43 AM

^^No, of course, I haven't. I'm not very smart.

But I understand enough about the way things work to confidently call BS on your post. Twice you've had to use the word "technically," which I think is pretty revealing.

You're devaluing the work of foreign grad students so you can claim they "don't really contribute anything to American society"...but, in doing so, you're actually devaluing the work of all grad students.

[Edited on February 14, 2009 at 11:27 AM. Reason : ?]

2/14/2009 11:25:57 AM

Well I work DIRECTLY with PIs and grad students, so I know EXACTLY what it involves. Call it what you want. I am not devaluing anybody's work, I am saying if an abroad students trains here and then goes home, he/she doesn't really contribute anything in my view.

[Edited on February 14, 2009 at 11:32 AM. Reason : /]

2/14/2009 11:30:06 AM

^You're totally devaluing it.

We say it's a contribution. You say, "No, it's not. It's the PI's work technically."

You've totally devalued their work just so you can keep claiming they don't contribute anything.

2/14/2009 11:34:06 AM

OK fine have it your way. Look at it like this, the PI is using another set of hands to do the work, so a brain has to move these hands, so that brain is being trained, and training is what gets the student the degree. Sure the student's research the matter, because they have to explain their work 'contributed' to PI's ideas for the research THAT THE PI REQUIRES THEM TO DO in almost all cases, but that's training for them to be potential faculty, because they too may have to write grants one day or train students. ITS ALL TRAINING WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT. Its the PIs research. Some MS and Ph.D degree holder go on to do nothing but bench work (just saying they never really research again), but get paid LOTS of money. The fact of the matter is that the PI could do the research themselves, as many do. I know some who don't have students, but then will never be anything above an associate -prof. Just go to grad school and you will find out.

2/14/2009 11:56:51 AM

PIs and research receive no benefit from graduate students/PHD candidates.

Got it.

2/14/2009 12:02:33 PM

Haha you guys are just too funny. How about I just go write a grant proposal today, because I'm the PI and can offer accredited education, and award myself a Ph.D? Might as well. If I can research I can surely obtain a grant, and award myself a degree.

2/14/2009 12:05:35 PM

I thought you were smarter than this.

2/14/2009 12:07:27 PM

http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/genetics/Training.html

Quote :

"These rotations facilitate choosing a major professor and research program for the remainder of their graduate training."

How open-ended would you consider this sentence?

2/14/2009 12:23:48 PM

Quote :

"NCSU, is a state school, that is supported by state taxes and federal taxes. A lot of American students have to work when they go to school, thus can't spend all there time in the library, some also like to have one or two friends. It's a problem when Universities take in all these foreign students who are being subsidized by their home countries, over American students."

what that guy said

Quote :

"t just sounded like random complaints because dem foreigners tuk our edumucations."

lol

Quote :

"not many abroad students look physically strong, so if they had to move something heavy they would have to think about it"

This is just b.c they are the nerdy of the nerds from China. The big strong chinese are in the military or some other

career path where they could use their size and strength for pay. These are also probably the same kids who got picked on in school

and sat in the library during lunch instead of socializing with the other chinese youth.

2/14/2009 1:08:30 PM

Yeah thats probably true, but it would be interesting to read some research regarding physical strength from said countries versus America. That was more of an analogy than an actual assumption.

[Edited on February 14, 2009 at 1:14 PM. Reason : /]

2/14/2009 1:12:53 PM

complaining that the university favors students who do work 24/7 to students who would rather "have a life" is one of the most ridiculous things i have ever read.

this isn't fucking grade school.

2/14/2009 1:15:50 PM

The only solution to the problematic nature is for our society to change... that is to say the situation is not going to change as long as America hands out free candy to everybody. In fact, I am not suggesting we try to change, I enjoy my life and not being exposed to an extremely lop-sided economical system and separated society. Thats not to say Americans should not strive for excellence in education, we just have incentives NOT to excel in education. Offering of decent wages for little or no education beyond HS, flowing job market, friends with money, free will, clean hospitals, clean drinking water - we can live good without making a 4.0, in fact if you live in America you can live a decent life without being educated at all, and thats obviously not true for said countries. Our society has trained us to think, for example, 20k a year is a poor salary, but in fact you can live off of it. 20k in said countries in upscale living.

2/14/2009 1:30:35 PM

.

[Edited on February 14, 2009 at 1:45 PM. Reason : .]

2/14/2009 1:41:25 PM

Quote :

"And I'm suspicious about just how many don't actually speak English and how many are unpopular just because they're foreign. "

I don't really agree with much of HUR's post, but there is a legitimate language barrier with a lot of professors in engineering. I was never really one to complain about it--my experience was that you largely ended up teaching yourself the material along with other students(occasionally with the aid of office hours) whether the professor spoke impeccable English or broken, barely intelligible English...but it is a factor.

Actually, you don't really see professors who don't have a workable command of the language...it's more that there is often such a heavy accent that it can be tough to follow their lectures, because you're diverting brain cells away from understanding the concept in order to figure out what it was that he just said.

I'm pretty confident that almost nobody cares that they're foreign.

2/14/2009 1:45:22 PM

^Well, we were talking about students (TAs), and according to this thread, a lot of people do care that they're foreign.

In terms of professors and accents, that's a "problem" everywhere and has been since like forever. Experts don't always come with a perfect accent. And I trust your judgment. I will say that I've been in classes where some of my peers have complained about the professor's accent, and I've had no problems understanding the professor. I don't have supernatural listening skills. So...what's going on there? Maybe a little prejudice?

2/14/2009 2:03:40 PM

No, it's not prejudice. I personally enjoy talking to people from other countries. However, when you're trying to wrap your mind around a difficult concept, or follow along through difficult mathematic calculations, the distraction of having to stop and think (or ask) "What did he just say?" can be a real detractor.

Again, I was never really one to complain about it--I'd take a very heavy accent any day if the professor was fair, reasonable, and helpful outside of class (in office hours). Saying that it isn't an issue is ridiculous, though.

2/14/2009 2:24:28 PM

Bridget is one confrontational bitch haha. Its OK though It makes you hot.

2/14/2009 3:07:17 PM

^

^^It's an issue. Just no sure how they're going to change it since they haven't managed to so far.

And I'm not saying that you're prejudiced against professors with accents. I believe you when you say you have difficulty understanding sometimes.

However, I've been in classes where I haven't had trouble understanding, and I'm always a little miffed by the invariably vocal group of kids who complain about an accent that is negligible to me. In those situations where the accent really isn't that bad but people be bitching anyway, I would not be surprised if prejudice was a factor.

2/14/2009 3:38:18 PM

Why you ain't sent me a VDay PM yet?

Anyway, let me stop salting up this thread. Back to topic.

TAs with bad English is obviously not a priority for the University to 'fix' but it doesn't make learning unmanageable but I can see the issue with it though.

2/14/2009 3:41:38 PM

Quote :

"Also, a ton of these foreign students don't truly meet english language requirements but somehow get in, don't know how. So you get a TA that can't teach because they can't communicate with the students, thus the students suffer and don't get the education they should."

The TOEFL is too easy.

You can pass it without *really* knowing English, like my TA for an advanced chem lab, who could understand me, but could only respond with yes or no questions. He would just give me this look if I did not ask a yes or no question. It was very frustrating.

2/14/2009 3:45:13 PM

Quote :

"In those situations where the accent really isn't that bad but people be bitching anyway, I would not be surprised if prejudice was a factor. "

Well, it's not inconceivable, but have you considered this:

Students are apt to view a professor (or even a TA) with at least a little bit of disdain, simply because he's the one who makes them do homework, study for tests, point out their errors, etc. As long as there have been bosses and workers, there's been friction between them. If the professor didn't have an accent, they'd find something else they didn't like. The accent is just low-hanging fruit.

2/14/2009 4:13:24 PM

^That's a really good point.

2/14/2009 8:06:11 PM

^^ A lot of my professors are low hanging fruits.

I chortle at yepitswood.jpg, too, especially since it is a textbook I own. WPS 202! With a professor, who, by the way, has an extremely thick Hungarian accent. Without which, with her extremely memorable pronunciations of parenchyma, tracheids, and torus/margo structure, I probably would not have done nearly so well in the class. So for some an accent is helpful.

2/15/2009 2:11:09 AM

Quote :

"(2) Modify immigration laws to make it easy for highly educated foreigners to come, work, and stay in the US. Under no circumstances should academic leniency for American students be an answer. "

Also, don't all these foreign students pay out of state tuition, and isn't the out of state tuition set at a level that makes up for not paying state taxes (and if not, whose fucking fault is that)?

Nowadays, 1 year of out of state tuition is more than I paid for all 4 years.

[Edited on February 15, 2009 at 1:46 PM. Reason : .]

2/15/2009 1:46:31 PM

dem foreigners tukker edumucations

2/15/2009 4:22:04 PM

^^ I believe state law says out-of-state tuition needs to be greater than in-state and that it should be inline with out-of-state tuition in other states. I don't think there are any requirements that out-of-state tuition must offset unpaid taxes or cover the actual cost of education.

I don't know how out-of-state grad students receiving stipends are affected.

2/16/2009 6:07:18 PM