Quote :

"and i'm not discounting those games vick has that don't look great on paper. if he single-handedly wins his team a super bowl or two with a couple 10 yard scrambles, then great, he can be the awesome quarterback you say he is. i just don't see that happening anytime soon. "

So what makes Manning so much better in your eyes? That he only has better stats?

8/25/2005 8:53:42 PM

Quote :

"HE got stifled by the Eagles defense and the Buccaneers defense in the playoffs twice. That's because each team said hey lets focus every bit of defensive attention on MIchael Vick and make someone else beat us. And the Falcons didnt have enough weapons to counter that strategy with. "

"make someone else beat us" = make Michael Vick pass the ball

Quote :

"You guys are fucking idiots honestly. Quick someone show me the Falcons record with Vick starting the last 3 years. Then show me the Falcons record without Vick starting the last 3 years. Off the top of my head I'm gonna guess they win about 75% of their games with him starting and about 18% without him starting. "

Well gee, when you build an offense around a running quarterback, I wonder why they win more games with Vick than Matt Schaub. Vick requires an offense to be built around him, an offense that "works" enough to win games when he is playing. Vick is a unique athlete, there is no doubt about it. But the fact that the offense is created that only works for him, coupled with his tendency to get injured makes him a liability for his team.

Being a costly injury for your team does not make someone the best at their position.

Quote :

"But there isnt a GM that wouldn't kill to have him on their team. Like it has been said before. Vick wins games. He puts fear into the opposing teams defense, and his athletic ability alone wins the games."

The fact that he relies so much on his athleticism actually speak to his limitations to a quarterback. Mike Vick reaks havoc on undisciplined defenses. There is no question he wins games for his team. However, the limitations of this style are the reason he will NEVER win the big one. See: Nebraska football with Eric Crouch.

Quote :

"Does Vick win games? Yes. Who gives a fuck what his overall stats are. "

Vick does and will win games...but never a championship.



I also love how many of you are belittling the talent around Vick while mentioning that Peyton Manning has Harrison, etc. I guess when a quarterback doesn't make his teammates look good, it is easy to say he is operating singlehandedly. Quarterbacks should be team leaders, that make the guys around them look good and get the most out of them.

Which is more likely: that Harrison, Wayne, and Stokely would be just as productive with Vick and the Falcons, or that Price, White, and Jenkins would be much more productive with Peyton Manning?



Top 5 quarterback? Not a chance.

8/25/2005 8:54:21 PM

Quote :

"i'm conceding that vick is better than what those stats show, but you're trying to propel him past 10-15 quarterbacks that did more for their teams with baseless opinions. "

Name me 10 QBs you think a non insane GM in the NFL would rather have on their team than Vick.

8/25/2005 8:54:55 PM

Quote :

"Vick does and will win games...but never a championship. "

Wow, then someone better call Marino and tell him that his whole career was a sham because he never won a championship

8/25/2005 8:56:48 PM

Quote :

"You just lost any cred you might have had. God damn, if you dont think QBing 4 teams to super bowl wins doesnt make you a QB god, you are a complete fucking idiot."

have you ever heard of the Steel Curtain?

i'm not saying Bradshaw sucks, I'm saying he was not productive or efficient enough to be considered a quarterback god, he was great, but hardly godly. Plus the guy is a fucking moron, so that probably added some bias into my feelings toward him.

8/25/2005 8:58:46 PM

you can't say vick's 17 TD's are comparable to manning's 49 just because he scrambles for a few first downs. manning throws for a ton. manning averaged 9.2 yards per ATTEMPT last year. that's almost a first down every time the ball leaves his hand.

GM's would want vick because of the publicity and the fans he brings. make it coaches and yeah i could name 10 they'd rather have.

[Edited on August 25, 2005 at 9:01 PM. Reason : ]

8/25/2005 8:59:38 PM

good post, markgoal

8/25/2005 9:01:15 PM

Ok, if we are looking at stats, then lets bring up a few years ago when I was saying that BJ Simmons of TT was better than Rivers becuase BJ had better stats. But everyone on here argued that Rivers was the better QB even though his stats werent as good. Interesting......

8/25/2005 9:01:17 PM

vick doesnt get in there and run the offense the way rivers did, and his defense isn't godawful, either

and looking at stats, rivers is the 2nd all-time leading passer in ncaa history

[Edited on August 25, 2005 at 9:03 PM. Reason : ]

8/25/2005 9:02:40 PM

i dont follow college football enough to respond to that argument

but i'll go ahead and assume it is as flawed as your others

8/25/2005 9:03:05 PM

Im not knocking Manning, he is prolly the only one I would even consider, and prolly consider to be better than Vick. I am by no means saying that Vick is even better than Manning, but Vick is for sure top 5.

8/25/2005 9:04:56 PM

Quote :

"and looking at stats, rivers is the 2nd all-time leading passer in ncaa history"

Actually he isnt. So...why dont you go recheck your facts before you try to pull some BS like that.

8/25/2005 9:06:13 PM

ok forget about manning.

how about culpepper? mcnabb? favre? brady? green? brees (last year)? delhomme? bulger? collins?

ok he was when he finished here, which was when you compared him to simons. maybe he's 3rd now, big difference, ass

[Edited on August 25, 2005 at 9:08 PM. Reason : ]

8/25/2005 9:07:08 PM

^ heres da link
http://gopack.collegesports.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/rivers_philip01.html

in the 1st 3 lines

[Edited on August 25, 2005 at 9:11 PM. Reason : fixeroo]

8/25/2005 9:10:36 PM

Wins > Stats

If Vick wins games, that's all that matters. That's all Jim Mora Jr. could ask for. That's all Falcon's fans can ask for.

He's not the typical prototype quarterback, but then again, that's why he's revolutionized the position.

8/25/2005 9:11:50 PM

yeah i mean i wasnt doubting my statement, i think that quarterback in hawaii might have passed him the next year though, which is probably what he's referring to.

it really makes no difference though, 2nd or 3rd most prolific passer in NCAA are both better than Simons

^again, you're completely negating the roles the surrounding offense and his defense played in the wins. vick isn't doing it all by himself like you people say he does. their defense is solid, their running backs are solid.

[Edited on August 25, 2005 at 9:15 PM. Reason : ]

8/25/2005 9:13:11 PM

^^ ok prove that he wins the games, himself, not with his defense, nor with the productivity of his running backs

^ i just like to provide links to facts and stuff, so i don't look like i'm making stuff up, and i liked your point, so i wanted to make sure it was properly documented

[Edited on August 25, 2005 at 9:15 PM. Reason : add]

8/25/2005 9:13:18 PM

Thats the dumbest statement ever. Prove that Manning doesnt win games because of those factors. You can't. Its a fucking team sport. So is baseball, but ERA only deals with the pitcher, so you can judge some on that, in football there is no ERA. So we are led to speculate on the evidence. And dont sit here and tell me that other than manning, 3 other QBs do more for their team and win more games single handed than Vick. And if you would, at this point in his career choose Favre over Vick, you should be sent away for a long time because you are obviously mentally ill.

8/25/2005 9:17:23 PM

Quote :

"yeah i mean i wasnt doubting my statement, i think that quarterback in hawaii might have passed him the next year though, which is probably what he's referring to. it really makes no difference though, 2nd or 3rd most prolific passer in NCAA are both better than Simons"

So, the guy from Hawaii must be better than Rivers no?? He has better stats. So he must be.

8/25/2005 9:18:42 PM

As the star player, he make's players better simply by being out on the field.

I figure that's why the W/L totals are so dramatic when he's playing and when he's not.

It's that special intangible...that the team feels that they can win if he's simply in the game...that they know he's going to pull something out of his butt and save the team.

Obviously football is a team game, but players like Vick bring a winning mentality to the team. What would Green Bay be w/o Favre? (We'll see in a couple years). How would the Titans feel w/o Mcnair? Vikings w/o Culpepper?

[Edited on August 25, 2005 at 9:20 PM. Reason : Hawaii QB is Timmy Chang. TIMMAY!]

8/25/2005 9:20:04 PM

^^^ yeah so you look at their productivity (conveniently found in....statistics!) to see how they factor into their teams success

and guess what, vick isn't that productive, so i doubt that his average productivity is as grand a factor in atlanta finishing as an above-average team as you would like to think

^ scroll up a bit and read markgoal's post, it makes a good point about how centering the offense around vick inflates the difference between wins when vick is well vs. injurred
but your point could still be valid, i'm not that familiar of vick's status on the team as an emotional leader


[Edited on August 25, 2005 at 9:23 PM. Reason : shplah]

8/25/2005 9:20:34 PM

you can't base productivity simply on a QB's stats.

If Vick is in the game, that could allow TJ Duckett and Warrick Dunn to go for 150 yds. Now if you want to look up defensive and offensive statistics for me when Vick plays and when he doesn't, by all means.

8/25/2005 9:22:27 PM

Quote :

"^ yeah so you look at their productivity (conveniently found in....statistics!) to see how they factor into their teams success and guess what, vick isn't that productive, so i doubt that his average productivity is as grand a factor in atlanta finishing as an above-average team as you would like to think "

Ive already posted about how stats can be misleading. Once you realize that total stats dont make a player all he is, you will learn something.

8/25/2005 9:22:44 PM

SuperDude, are you pro or anti Vick? I cant tell? lol

8/25/2005 9:23:29 PM

Vick makes my pen15 smile

8/25/2005 9:26:04 PM

Thatta boy

8/25/2005 9:27:32 PM

i think another thing to factor in is that in 2001 they had a 7-9 season, giving next season a softer schedule (allowing vick to do better in 2002)

so 2002 success makes 2003 schedule harder so atlanta sucked to 5-11

so 2003's suckage made 2004 schedule easier, and vick comes in and is able to do well (their schedule last year was very soft)

Conclusion: the partnering of vick's play time with an easier schedule somewhat inflates his importance to the team.

gotta run, time for some HW and TV

last thing, this is how soft atlanta's schedule was last year
played 3 teams with > .5000 winning percentage
total opponent win-loss: 111-145
source: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/atl2004.htm and its links

[Edited on August 25, 2005 at 9:38 PM. Reason : 2004 win/loss]

8/25/2005 9:30:01 PM

Quote :

"so 2002 success makes 2003 schedule harder so atlanta sucked to 5-11 "

No Atlanta sucked in 2003 because VICK MISSED OVER HALF THE SEASON. And when he came back, I do recall him pretty much single handedly beating the Panthers in the final minutes. But hey, thats just what a top 15 QB in the league does....time...and time.....again

8/25/2005 9:36:40 PM

Quit trying to talk shit like that. Vick and the Falcons marched into Lambo in 2002 and beat the Packers on their home field and pretty much bitch slapped the all mighty Favre.

[Edited on August 25, 2005 at 9:39 PM. Reason : .]

8/25/2005 9:38:31 PM

2002, bitch slapped the Packers????

may want to check that: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/atl2002.htm

8/25/2005 9:41:21 PM

Im still waiting on someone to reply to this..

Quote :

"Quote : "i'm conceding that vick is better than what those stats show, but you're trying to propel him past 10-15 quarterbacks that did more for their teams with baseless opinions. " Name me 10 QBs you think a non insane GM in the NFL would rather have on their team than Vick. "

So please, tell me 10 other QBs, you think any GM in the NFL would choose over Vick. I'll throw you Manning and McNabb. So name me 8 more

8/25/2005 9:41:55 PM

Quote :

"2002, bitch slapped the Packers???? "

Umm yeah, 27-7 vs the Packers at Lambo, which I think was like there first home loss in the playoffs in a long time, and it was in the snow and we all know the Falcons suck in the snow because they play indoors. So yeah, I'd say thats pretty much a bitch slapping. If not, please oh please do explain to me how it isnt.

[Edited on August 25, 2005 at 9:44 PM. Reason : .]

8/25/2005 9:43:40 PM

^ appoligies, i saw the first game of the season @ Packers, forgot the playoffs
so packers vs. falcons, 1-1 that season, big deal

oh and hear are my rankings up to vick, you can hate all you want
1. Manning
2. Culpepper
3. McNabb
4. Brady
5. Green
6. Favre
7. Brees
8. Bulger
9. Delhomme
10. Hasselbeck
11. Pennington
12. Vick

8/25/2005 9:54:00 PM

while I hate the Falcons, I think Vick is good at what he does. He is not the same kind of QB as Peyton Manning but both are leaders and make things happen on the field, if the falcolns got a good possession receiver they would be unstoppable. I still think Vick takes too many risks and is one blown knee from being a shitty QB. Your right though most GM's would love to have a playmaker like Vick.

8/25/2005 9:55:35 PM

Ok, lets break this down.

Quote :

"^ appoligies, i saw the first game of the season @ Packers, forgot the playoffs so packers vs. falcons, 1-1 that season, big deal oh and hear are my rankings up to vick, you can hate all you want 1. Manning 2. Culpepper 3. McNabb 4. Brady 5. Green 6. Favre 7. Brees 8. Bulger 9. Delhomme 10. Hasselbeck 11. Pennington 12. Vick"

First, the Packers beat the Falcons in the regular season,yes, but the Falcons only lost by 3, then won the big game...in the playoffs, the only one of those 2 games that really matters. And your list of QBs above Vick is a joke. Based on who any GM would want on their team, stats, and ability, you ranking Vick 12th is a fucking joke. Do you honestly believe that any GM in the leauge is gonna take Vick #12 out of that list?? HAHA, if you do, wow you are a complete moron. I will go this far. I will say Manning is #1. The guy is about as good of a passer that there is, his college and pro career support that. So I will put him at #1 overall. Not stats, not wins, just overall. After that, Culpepper, Mcnabb, Brady, and Vick are pretty much in a tie. There is really no REAL way to judge who is better between those 4. Id prolly put Brady at #2 only because he has two championships. After that, its a tie for 3rd. Mcnabb maybe with the edge, only because of his post season success. So 4-5 comes down to Culpepper and Vick, who you cant distinguish between.

Trent Green - I hope thats a joke.
Favre - Yes, a badass player with top notch career stats. But at this point in his career, he isnt close to Vick.
Brees - My god, you knock the guy on here constantly because he starts over Rivers, and Brees has only one great year after a good college career, now all of a sudden he is better than Vick? RIIIIIIIGHT
Bulger - Again, he has some stats, but please, again...he is no Vick
Delhomme - Nice way to thow in your home state boy.
Hasselbeck - So coach, who do you want on your team for the next 6 years? Vick or Hasselbeck?
Pennington - You get hurt alot like Vick does, but Vick is the better player. So, who do you want?

8/25/2005 10:16:30 PM

10 minutes.....looks like Ive stumped ya. If only Trent Green were around he could make the play here to win the game.

8/25/2005 10:27:51 PM

Quote :

"while I hate the Falcons, I think Vick is good at what he does. He is not the same kind of QB as Peyton Manning but both are leaders and make things happen on the field, if the falcolns got a good possession receiver they would be unstoppable. I still think Vick takes too many risks and is one blown knee from being a shitty QB. Your right though most GM's would love to have a playmaker like Vick."

This pretty much sums up the entire thread. Vick and Manning are both great at what they do. One is a passing QB, one is an unconventional QB running the ball alot. Both get the job done in the the end.

8/25/2005 10:29:21 PM

Vick just quoted his game the best


"How do you reply to how people think you should play, and how you play."

He responded

"Coach just tells me to go out and play...be me...Go out and play the game like Superman, you have the tattoo, so do it. Nobody can change you. I wont try to change you. And I cant change, I will always run till I am so old I can't"

So fuck it, the nigger likes to run, maybe you haters will realize thats his strength and how he wins games. Jesus, he still dominates defenses and they have seen him now for almost 3 years. You'd think they could shut him down by now if he was just a top 15 QB

8/25/2005 10:37:01 PM

Quote :

"10 minutes.....looks like Ive stumped ya. If only Trent Green were around he could make the play here to win the game."

right, its been 40 minutes, i already said i had some HW i wanted to get out of the way, so don't pretend like you've stumped me, whatever the fuck that is supposed to mean.

if you look at the productivity out of all those qb's i listed, you will see for the past 2-3 years they have all been more productive than vick (who only has 2 full seasons to compare to). Pennington is the only one that is of equal productivity to Vick, and I would chose to have an accurate QB with a head on his shoulders.

There is another thing I considered when I chose these rankings, value.
Sure, vick could possibly be #5, if he could be consistently great. but he's not that consistent or productive and he is frequently injured. So, instead of shoveling out a bunch money for a not so sure thing, I would rather pay the same for the top 4, who have proven themselves time and time again, or pay less for a QB that is more productive (but doesn't have the athletic ability) so I could strengthen other positions on my team.

Just because you would pick michael vick #1 in your madden fantasy draft, doesn't make it the same in real life.

8/25/2005 10:48:29 PM

10 minutes.....looks like Ive stumped ya.

PS, I'm out

[Edited on August 25, 2005 at 10:59 PM. Reason : PS]

8/25/2005 10:58:59 PM

hahahaha. thats pretty funny. he says "name ten quarterbacks you think are better than vick" and then when he does, the rebuttal is "oh, right, like that guy is really better than vick"

good job proving vick is better dude

8/25/2005 11:12:49 PM

Until you concede that Vick is a top 5 QB in the NFL you are not even worth arguing with


Seriously you need to understand some things.

A) Rushing yards are worth MORE than passing yards. Anyone with half a brain knows this. You can't just add passing+rushing to get total yards.

B) Vick had almost 2.5x more rushing yards than ANY other QB in the league.

C) Have you everconsidered the fact that Vick only played 14 games???? So just maybe its not fair to compare stats with someone who played all 16???

D) Before you start screaming INJURY INJURY!!! like I know you were about to do. Vick didnt play those last two games because his team had already clinched their position in the playoffs. So while Culpepper was out there losing every week down the stretch, Vick had his feet propped up drinking gatorade.

E) Who the fuck put Chad Pennington ahead of Michael Vick. Is that some sort of sick joke? Jake Delhomme? How can anyone take you seriously when you spout off total crap like that... I mean shit why don't you throw Kyle Boller, Andre Ware, Chad Hutchinson, and Ryan Leaf's names out there too while you're at it.

F) Quit debating this already. He's a top 5 QB and thats certified. No individual player is more important to his team. When Aikman went down the Cowboys went 4-0. When Culpepper went down Frerotte didn't miss a beat. When McNabb went down they even had fucking AJ Feeley winning games left & right. When Mike Vick goes down the Falcons cant beat ANYBODY.

[Edited on August 25, 2005 at 11:23 PM. Reason : a]

8/25/2005 11:23:21 PM

yeah and markgoal pointed out exactly why. vick has to have the offense custom-taylored around him. obviously chris chandler and matt schaub will not be able to run an offense built for a scrambling qb.

so rushing yards are worth more than passing yards then? so what, if he runs 5 yards, the ref spots the ball an extra 5 yards? the endzone is the same distance away whether you run or pass.

the argument against the stats is that he led his team to score. he got them down there and then handed it off to his teammates and let them score. ok, well indy had the highest scoring offense last year with 32.6 ppg. atlanta? yeah they were 16th with 21.3 ppg

Offensive Leaders
RNK	NAME	         YDS	YPG	RUSH RUSH YPG	PASS	PASS YPG  PTS	PTS/G
1	Indianapolis	6475	404.7	1852	115.8	4623	288.9	522	32.6
2	Kansas City	6695	418.4	2289	143.1	4406	275.4	483	30.2
3	San Diego	5542	346.4	2185	136.6	3357	209.8	446	27.9
4	New England	5722	357.6	2134	133.4	3588	224.3	437	27.3
5	Green Bay	6357	397.3	1908	119.3	4449	278.1	424	26.5
6	Minnesota	6339	396.2	1823	113.9	4516	282.3	405	25.3
7	Buffalo	        4691	293.2	1874	117.1	2817	176.1	395	24.7
8	Philadelphia	5618	351.1	1639	102.4	3979	248.7	386	24.1
9	Denver	        6332	395.8	2333	145.8	3999	249.9	381	23.8
10	Cincinnati	5140	321.3	1839	114.9	3301	206.3	374	23.4
11	Pittsburgh	5184	324.0	2464	154.0	2720	170.0	372	23.3
12	Seattle	        5634	352.1	2095	130.9	3539	221.2	371	23.2
13	Carolina	5225	326.6	1582	98.9	3643	227.7	355	22.2
14	New Orleans	5193	324.6	1606	100.4	3587	224.2	348	21.8
15	Tennessee	5487	342.9	1871	116.9	3616	226.0	344	21.5
16	Atlanta	        5084	317.8	2672	167.0	2412	150.8	340	21.3

8/25/2005 11:38:02 PM

What I am going to tell you is that the offense is not taylor made for Vick.

It's a West Coast offense. That is a BAD offense for Vick. It should be a GOOD offense for a QB like Schaub actually.

Here is another thing to consider.

Teams in the top 10 in passing are USUALLY losing teams.

Teams in the top 10 in rushing are USUALLY winning teams.


In the 4th quarter when the Falcons are running the ball to protect their lead, teams like Kansas City are racking up passing yards to try to forge comebacks.


There are two types of teams in the NFL. Teams that can run the ball and teams that can't run the ball. Passing is for teams that can't run the ball and often they aren't winning teams.


If you think VIck is not a top 5 QB you are quite simply nuts.

8/25/2005 11:56:33 PM

ok you can't just tell me the stats are bullshit and proclaim vick to be top 5 with nothing to substantiate it. give me something solid. what am i missing? i don't care if vick runs for 10 yards to convert a 3rd down. manning gets a first practically every time the ball leaves his hand. and you come in saying rushing counts more, lol.

if you counted all of his rushing stats double he'd be 6th in total yards and 14th in total TD's. again, where do you get off calling him top 5?

i can look at any quarterback in the NFL and proclaim him to be top 5 without backing it up. if stats don't matter, what does matter? you say wins, but can you honestly tell me you think the NFC and AFC are equal in strength? and i know you were one of the ones bashing roethlisberger last year. his team went 15-1 IN THE AFC and he ranks right there with vick on those stats. however you think he sucks and vick is top 5 NFL. explain that please, if you can.

8/26/2005 12:03:38 AM

How many times have you actually seen Vick play?

You sound like somone who has seen him 4-5 times....


If you'd seen him play 20 times like I have maybe you'd understand.


The NFL is about gamebreakers. You aren't going to sustain 80 yard drives all that often in the NFL.

Scenario 1: Trent Green drives his team 40 yards on 3 staight drives and accounts for 100 yards but his team scores only 3 points.

Scenario 2: Mike Vick goes 3 and out on possesion 1+2 and only accounts for 6 yards. On possession three he gets 2 first downs then scrambles for a 42 yd TD. That's 7 points.

He makes plays that win ball games. Trent Green racks up stats when his team is down 28-10.



Roethlisberger IS better than his statistics show because he is a good game manager. I'm just saying he was totally overrated b/c he was a rookie going 15-1 and the media made him out to be a superstar. They were winning tight grind it out games by running the football and converting a few key 3rd downs. THeir defense was also fantastic. I dont think he sucks, but at this point he's not as good as DelHomme, Hasslebeck, or even Trent Green.

[Edited on August 26, 2005 at 12:20 AM. Reason : a]

8/26/2005 12:16:31 AM

This thread got way too long and uninteresting while I was at work for me to read, even though the title has my name in it. Vick is somewhere between a mediocre QB and a good QB, depends on the day, but he is a bad passer. To think that the biggest change last season was a healthy Vick is a laugher. That is all.

8/26/2005 12:18:04 AM

^^ good example since KC smashed ATL 56-10 last season

and KC isn't hurting too much in the scoring department

holy fuck "Teams in the top 10 in passing are USUALLY losing teams."
=> lol, give me at least 2 seasons with team passing rankings and team winning percentage rankings to prove that!!

[Edited on August 26, 2005 at 12:27 AM. Reason : ha]

8/26/2005 12:23:37 AM

well i gotta do some hw guys, but i'll be in here to provide more evidence against unsubstantiated bullshit tomorrow

peace

8/26/2005 12:33:35 AM

^^^ this thread is basically people who understand statistics vs people who don't

All that bullshit ncWOLFsu is trotting out wholly ignores what it actually means to be a good qb. It proves that X had more passing yards than Y, but that is a completely different thing than proving X is a better qb than Y.

The bottom line is that great quarterbacks are determined by the consensus of fans, media, and players, not some faggy, haphazard collection of stats. These people (rightfully) trust their own observation of a QB's performance and base their opinions on actual, logical reasons (i.e. This QB is clutch when it matters the most).

Stats, especially the moronic model that ncWOLFsu seems to be employing, are an *abstraction* of a QB's performance. Hence, they can (and clearly do in this thread) abstract what it means to be a good QB. If you even want to start using stats to prove who is the better QB, you have to start coming up with metrics for "clutchness," "playmaker," "matchup nightmare," etc before you can get a reliable model.

Picking and choosing 2 or 3 categories such as passing yards is idiotic.


[Edited on August 26, 2005 at 12:38 AM. Reason : I'd also note that fags do this same shit to prove that J Davis didnt suck balls last year.]

8/26/2005 12:37:38 AM