So now that the war in Iraq is underway, there are reports of war games between Russia and China. Although these games are more than 3 years old, this year round they are being played with increased propensity towards signalling a threat to the US forces in Asia.

Someone on TV was scaring the public by asking, "What is a bigger threat to America - Fundamentalist Islamists or China or both?". What do you think is the bigger threat?

China is the fastest growing economy right now...it pwns American storeshelves. They have bought IBM's PC business, and want to buy oil refineries. Slowly, they'd want to establish a hegemony in Asia...although I am sure it is going to be hard.

Is this a real threat? What can be done?

8/22/2005 12:53:19 AM

In western china there is an extremely large number of devote muslims communities. They see america as killers of their kindred in afghanistan. I have seen a report on tv of a guy interviewing one of these men in the mountainous region of western china. They are indeed enraged over what we are doing. China is a sleeping giant, so before we get too far into this lets take a long look at what we are accomplishing in the middle east and then ask ourselves wheather we should push further.

[Edited on August 22, 2005 at 12:59 AM. Reason : .]

[Edited on August 22, 2005 at 12:59 AM. Reason : .]

8/22/2005 12:59:09 AM

I saw a guy on tv that said that china is the debbil!!!

8/22/2005 1:01:46 AM

The purpose of my post was to promote peace not war. I like countless other americans believe america was wrong to pursue this to begin with.

8/22/2005 1:04:48 AM

Quote :

"China is a sleeping giant, so before we get too far into this lets take a long look at what we are accomplishing in the middle east and then ask ourselves wheather we should push further."

No one is arguing that we should attack China.

Damn son.

8/22/2005 1:06:33 AM

There is no way America can pull out of Iraq now...not atleast for another 2 years.

8/22/2005 1:06:44 AM

China is communist. Russia, despite all the hoopla about the USSR crumbling, is still very much communist in its policy and ideology. So it is not surprising that China and Russia should be open allies.

Communism/Marxism/Bolshevism was the creation of the Rothschild-Zionist-Illuminati-Banker cabal that is controlling world events. Communism was created to be a destabilzing force in the world and to advance the political aims of the cabal (ie, Marx's goals in The Communist Manifesto--->elimination of private property, destruction of existing religions, etc.) Communism destroyed the then-existing governments in currently communist countries, and is the visible "enemy" of the western "capitalist" nations. This conflict between the West and communism is, of course, staged by the Zionist-Illuminati cabal. If desired, this cabal will stage a war between the West and communism for the purpose of weakening/destroying those nations and advancing their goal of world domination. Ultimately, the idea is that the world's nations will be so weakened and worn out by war that they will consent to world government under something akin to the United Nations.


[Edited on August 22, 2005 at 1:16 AM. Reason : 1]

8/22/2005 1:08:49 AM

^jesus h christ, you sound like this wacko i know that used to be a carney and now works with a friend of mine. hes convinced everything is an illuminati cospiracy.

8/22/2005 1:11:13 AM

what's a carney?

8/22/2005 1:12:56 AM

I was reading along up untill I hit "Rothschild-Zionist-Illuminati-Banker cabal" and I was like "this must be a ... yup, salisburyboy post".

8/22/2005 1:13:50 AM

^^^^ Please prove any of that.

^^ Someone who works at a carnival.

[Edited on August 22, 2005 at 1:14 AM. Reason : ^]

8/22/2005 1:14:24 AM

Seriously salisburyboy, you have got to drop your conspiracy theories. If you ever walked into a communist's house you would see they live no different than you.

8/22/2005 1:16:07 AM

I didn't realize bankers were such a threat.

8/22/2005 1:16:20 AM

I'm not interested in mere theories. I'm interested in FACTS. That is what I have discussed above.

Oh, and conspiracies DO exist. They are a reality of life. The real "conspiracy theory" is the idea that conspiracies don't exist.

8/22/2005 1:18:28 AM

China is slowly moving away from communism.

As the middle class grows, and the affluent class gets richer, the power of the Party weakens.

I expect either a gradual change of China's political structure, or several quiet purges.

China and the USSR having wargames is nothing to be scared about. Such things occur with regular frequency.

What everyone should care to worry about, however, is a slight shift in global allegiences.

Noticebly, the US is starting to be come isolated.

8/22/2005 1:27:53 AM

Never fear, Poland is with us.

8/22/2005 1:37:10 AM

china

is kind of funny

ahahahahhahahahahahaha

but seriously, the real question is

what's the US going to do when china invades taiwan

cause it's going to happpen

every second after the 2008 games, taiwan is living on borrowed time

8/22/2005 2:27:08 AM

I heard that they were going to contaminate some supplies of Coca Cola. They seem to think of it as a "joke".

8/22/2005 2:37:15 AM

ahahahahahhahahahahahahhahaha

nice

8/22/2005 2:38:10 AM

salisburyboy:

Quote :

"I'm not interested in mere theories. I'm interested in FACTS."

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah.......

let me catch my breath...

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahaha.

wow.

8/22/2005 8:00:04 AM

Hey, if China ever attacks us, we'll march on down to a Chinese courthouse and file a law-suit. The Chinese legal system has come a long way, Chinese citizens are actually suing their government and winning!

I'm sure any invasion of Taiwan would go all the way to the Chinese Supreme People's Court! A Law & Order episode to be reckoned with.

8/22/2005 8:04:55 AM

we had war games where we simulated a war with isreal
not because we looked at them as a thread but because we felt they had the technology to challange our new type of technological warfare

also in the simulation we got our ass kicked

8/22/2005 8:27:44 AM

uh oh, you're asking for another salisburyboy post dealing with us and israel

8/22/2005 8:41:08 AM

i was kinda hoping for it

also i think its funny we got spanked until we restarted the games and had a script

8/22/2005 8:44:52 AM

unfortunately, US foreign policy enjoys the long hard rod jammed in its pooper

and even more unfortunately, the US citizens pay the price for it


the world's largest democracy is situated right smack in between these islamo-facists and the last of the big commies

the world's largest democracy has the potential to be a key ally in the new geopolitical climate

sure they were pacifists once, but the tough neighborhood has hardened them a bit

the US needs to reach out to this potential ally, and at the least, stop selling arms to a country that is harboring Bin Laden

8/22/2005 9:52:18 AM

nastoute posed the right question here


We have interests in Taiwan, and so does China. If they decide to take back democratic Taiwan and convert it to communism, what would we do?

If we pull out and let them have it, A) We would look like pussies, and B) Europe gave Hitler Poland when he invaded, hoping that it would possibly stop there. It did not.

I think China is going to be a very big threat in many ways in the years to come. The world only really affords one superpower at a time, and China will be the next one.

8/22/2005 9:55:02 AM

if they go after taiwan

and we support taiwan

we better have the support of every single other soverign nation

because if we dont we are fucked and it will be nuke time

8/22/2005 10:06:40 AM

the Taiwan question is part of the larger, "What do we do about china" question. while they are commies, they're a Chinese brand, and the traditional western Marxist label may not apply to them appropriately. it might even be possible to call the Chinese brand of communism a, "neo-Confucian meritocracy". With everything china is doing, especially with regards to its participation in world trade and its dabbling in the free markets, it seems that China is doing whats best for China. the way i see it, the same wasn't true for the USSR. the commuies of the USSR brand did what was best for the Marxist ideology, and not for the well being of the nation.

i don't think the chinese want to take Taiwan and dismantle everything that is good about it. the Chinese are more likely to integrate it, and use it to its benefit. Taiwan can be the next Hong Kong. there are enough cultural similairities between the populations, and enough will by the Chinese to modernize, for this to happen. furthermore, this would stimulate more trade between China and the US. there doesn't need to be an invasion. i know we're accustomed to violent overthrows, and our pride-masturbatory complex can't envision much else, but there exists a strong possibility for a non-hostile acquisition to take place. most corporate takeovers are nonhostile. this is a new world, new paradigms can be etched.

[Edited on August 22, 2005 at 10:18 AM. Reason : sdffsdgdfg]

8/22/2005 10:17:53 AM

that is true

there is a middle class emerging in China that would have never happened in communist USSR.

My dad attributes that to the high gas prices. I find this middle class at odds with communist ideology, so who knows, maybe they'll make the move toward democracy down the road, but yea, they are doing whats best for China.

I just hope that does not include taking us out of the picture.

8/22/2005 10:21:05 AM

Quote :

"Oh, and conspiracies DO exist. They are a reality of life. The real "conspiracy theory" is the idea that conspiracies don't exist"

Conspiracies do exist. However, you're arguing for some sort of monological conspiracy theory that encapsulates every single world event and includes all world leaders. This has never ever happened in the history of mankind. You're living in a fantasy world if you think that it is at all feasible.

8/22/2005 11:06:48 AM

Quote :

"However, you're arguing for some sort of monological conspiracy theory that encapsulates every single world event and includes all world leaders. This has never ever happened in the history of mankind. You're living in a fantasy world if you think that it is at all feasible."

A COMPLETE MISREPRESENTATION OF MY POSITION. You're shooting down a straw-man. I never claimed that the conspiracy invovled EVERY SINGLE world event and world leader. What I have said is that the conspirators have had their hand in nearly every major world event of the past few centuries.


It should also be noted that in addition to Russia and China being allied, Russia has stated that it may defend Iran if Iran is attacked by the United States. So, the US could be facing war with both Russia and China if it were to attack Iran. This sounds like a recipe for WWIII.

8/22/2005 11:17:36 AM

However, you're arguing for some sort of monological conspiracy theory that encapsulates nearly every single world event and includes nearly all world leaders. This has never ever happened in the history of mankind. You're living in a fantasy world if you think that it is at all feasible.

Is that a better representation of your position?

8/22/2005 11:25:01 AM

If the conspiracy is oh-so encompassing and oh-so secret, why the hell does anybody know about it at all? You'd think the neo-nazi zionese whatevers would want to keep it all under wraps so as to avoid people resisting them or something. Plz to answer that, sallisburyboy.

8/22/2005 12:01:03 PM

one of these days
sailsburyboy is going to stop posting
not because he realized we dont care
but because the government fuckin took him out

8/22/2005 12:05:16 PM

salisburyboy 'suicided'?

8/22/2005 12:08:01 PM

I dont agree with salisburyboy, but there is no way you can prove his conspiracy theories wrong.

8/22/2005 12:18:52 PM

^^exactly

someone needs to quote me on that
maybe i could just make a thread and bttt every few weeks with more about my theory



[Edited on August 22, 2005 at 12:20 PM. Reason : ^depends which theory, some are easy]

8/22/2005 12:19:32 PM

^^ Just like theres no way that he could prove them right. They're unfalsifiable, which allows him to keep this up despite its complete absurdity.

8/22/2005 12:21:18 PM

You people are fucking up the thread.

But I'll say this

Conspiracy theories are just that...theories.

Does anyone know the truth about Area51?

Does anyone know about Alien Technology?

8/22/2005 12:25:21 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminati

Quote :

"History A short-lived movement of republican freethinkers, the most radical offshoot of The Enlightenment -to whose adherents the name Illuminati was given (but who called themselves "Perfectibilists")- was founded on May 1, 1776 by the ex-Jesuit Adam Weishaupt (d. 1830), professor of canon law, and Baron Adolph von Knigge, in Ingolstadt, Bavaria (now Germany). The group has also been called the Illuminati Order, the Order of the Illuminati, and the Bavarian Illuminati. In the conservative state of Bavaria, where the progressive and enlightened elector Maximilian III Joseph von Wittelsbach was succeeded (1777) by his conservative heir Karl Theodor, and which was dominated by the Roman Catholic Church and the aristocracy, such an organization did not last long before it was suppressed by the powers that be. In 1784, the Bavarian government banned all secret societies including the Illuminati and the Freemasons. The structure of the Illuminati soon collapsed, but while it was in existence many influential intellectuals and progressive politicians counted themselves as members. Its members, drawn primarily from Masons and former Masons, pledged obedience to their superiors, and were divided into three main classes: ... ...Scottish Mason and professor of natural history named John Robison started to publish Proofs of a Conspiracy Against all the Religions and Governments of Europe in 1798. When he saw the similar work done by Barruél, he included large quotes from the latter's work. Robison claimed to present evidence of an Illuminati conspiracy striving to replace all religions and nations with humanism and a single world government, respectively."

The REASON the Illuminati, Freemasons, and other secret societies were banned in Germany was because it was discovered that the Illuminati plotted to destroy all existing governments and religions and replace them with a "humanist" world government. The article says that the Illuminati "collapsed." It may have been true that the group ceased to exist by that name for a period of time, but it would be foolish to believe that the members totally abandoned their goals. The truth is that these same members just went underground and began to call themselves by other names. Their agenda lives on. The article admits the connection between the Illuminati and Freemasonry. The one-world-occult-new world order agenda of the Illuminati lives on today in Freemasonry and many other secret organizations.

Adam Weishaupt, the founder of the Bavarian Illuminati, was Jewish. He was a Jesuit Priest at one time. The Jesuit Order, by the way, was founded by Ignatius Loyola, another Jew. The Jewish Rothschild Family provided the funding for the founding of the Bavarian Illuminati. The Rothschild Family is an immensely powerful banking family. Though the richest family in the world, they hardly recieve any attention in the media.

[Edited on August 22, 2005 at 12:51 PM. Reason : 3]

8/22/2005 12:38:24 PM

ok back to the topic.

China is an anarchy of sorts

no human rights

a little worse than Saudi Arabia

Yet we have economic boom

it has a very strong military

and is trying to edge out the US in the region

What's happening?

Can someone analyze the situation?

8/22/2005 12:48:57 PM

hey lets quote a user created encyclopedia

8/22/2005 12:49:01 PM

STOP POSTING YOU GOOK

8/22/2005 12:50:01 PM

Quote :

"It may have been true that the government ceased to exist by that name, but it would be foolish to believe that the members abandoned their goals."

They're all dead, so its a moot point.

Quote :

"The truth is that these same members just went underground and began to call themselves by other names."

proof?

Quote :

"Their agenda lives on."

proof?

Quote :

"The article admits the connection between the Illuminati and Freemasonry."

It says that they were both banned. That is not a strong connection.

Quote :

"The one-world-occult-new world order agenda of the Illuminati lives on today in Freemasonry and many other secret organizations."

proof?

8/22/2005 12:51:04 PM

with the advent of their middle class, and everyone over there owning cars, the gas shortage and high prices is just going to continue.

I say the US needs to start looking seriously at some major alternative fuel sources and say the hell with oil.

8/22/2005 12:52:21 PM

Quote :

"China is an anarchy of sorts no human rights a little worse than Saudi Arabia"

without sources, you risk sounding like Trapezius

8/22/2005 1:04:08 PM

Global oil supply has met demand now.

High prices per barrel is due to other reasons.

8/22/2005 1:07:17 PM

Quote :

"Global oil supply has met demand now. "

plz cite

8/22/2005 1:14:07 PM

Quote :

"without sources, you risk sounding like Trapezius"

"The People's Republic of China (PRC) is an authoritarian state in which, as specified in its Constitution, the Chinese Communist Party (CCP or Party) is the paramount source of power. Party members hold almost all top government, police, and military positions. Ultimate authority rests with the 24-member political bureau (Politburo) of the CCP and its 9-member standing committee. Leaders made a top priority of maintaining stability and social order and were committed to perpetuating the rule of the CCP. Citizens lacked the freedom to express opposition to the Party-led political system and the right to change their national leaders or form of government."

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41640.htm

8/22/2005 1:15:47 PM

Quote :

"Abuses included instances of extrajudicial killings; torture and mistreatment of prisoners, leading to numerous deaths in custody; coerced confessions; arbitrary arrest and detention; and incommunicado detention. The judiciary was not independent, and the lack of due process remained a serious problem. The lack of due process was particularly egregious in death penalty cases, and the accused was often denied a meaningful appeal. Executions often took place on the day of conviction or on the denial of an appeal. In Xinjiang, trials and executions of Uighurs charged with separatism continued. Government pressure continued to make it difficult for lawyers to represent criminal defendants. The authorities routinely violated legal protections in the cases of political dissidents and religious figures. They generally attached higher priority to suppressing political opposition and maintaining public order than to enforcing legal norms or protecting individual rights. According to 2003 government statistics, more than 250,000 persons were serving sentences in "reeducation-through-labor" camps and other forms of administrative detention not subject to judicial review. Other experts reported that more than 310,000 persons were serving sentences in these camps in 2003. Throughout the year, the Government prosecuted individuals for subversion and leaking state secrets as a means to harass and intimidate, while others were detained for relaying facts about Chinese human rights issues to those outside the country. Among those detained or convicted on such charges were Christian activists Zhang Rongliang, Liu Fenggang, Xu Yonghai and Zhang Shengqi, and journalists Zhao Yan, Shi Tao, Li Guozhu and members of the independent PEN Center's China branch. The Government detained individuals administratively to suppress dissent and intimidate others. In April and June, authorities detained many who planned 15th anniversary commemorations of the 1989 Tiananmen massacre, including activist Hu Jia and "Tiananmen Mothers" organization founders. Similarly, military officials detained Dr. Jiang Yanyong because he wrote to government leaders requesting an official reassessment of the 1989 Tiananmen massacre. The number of individuals serving sentences for the now-repealed crime of counterrevolution was estimated at 500 to 600; many of these persons were imprisoned for the nonviolent expression of their political views. Nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) estimated that as many as 250 persons remained in prison for political activities connected to the 1989 Tiananmen demonstrations. "

Quote :

"The Government used the international war on terror as a pretext for cracking down harshly on suspected Uighur separatists expressing peaceful political dissent and on independent Muslim religious leaders. The human rights situation in the Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR) and in some Tibetan regions outside the TAR also remained poor (see Tibet Addendum)."

[Edited on August 22, 2005 at 1:18 PM. Reason : .]

8/22/2005 1:16:48 PM