http://www.motor-lot.com

Tell me what you think about this, and also, there is a font problem when i view this with netscape or older mozilla versions... I still havent learned how to fix that problem unless i was to make images that would load when non-complying browsers are being used. The font name is forte, but .... who knows...

Anyhow ... tell me what you think overall -- meaning suggestions if applicable

8/23/2005 10:36:35 AM

I do not like how I have to click on register today, I do not know that it is a link until I hover over it...

is there no buyers checklist?

I would like it if the three main headings buy, advertize, and research were links to something...that is the first thing that I wanted to click on...

I did not go anywhere other than the main page though

8/23/2005 10:52:26 AM

cool...

Yeah i havent completed most of the linked pages yet, so they are still on my dev. server.

Thanks for taking a look and for your comments.

8/23/2005 10:56:36 AM

I'd recommend using a sans serif font, using a smaller size for the subheadings, as well as a smaller size for the text.

8/23/2005 11:13:49 AM

sans-seif for which font? also, i guess the size changes according to how your comp. is setup... on one it may be too ig, on another maybe just right. which browser and res. settings are you using?

8/23/2005 11:21:15 AM

I think he means sans-serif for everything. You wouldn't want to mix serif with sans-serif, just pick one or the other. You have chosen serif, TWW for instance, is all sans-serif.

And yes, the text and font size varies from comptuer to computer, browser to browser, but I'm viewing this on a 19" screen at 1600x1200 (i.e. tiny), and those fonts are still huge.
hmmm, yeah - after looking at your source - "font-size: 36px;" ? no way - way too big.

also, what's the purpose of using Frames? Do you have a particular reason, or just because they're easy to set up? Are you trying to hide the URL? In general, frames are considered bad practice now-a-days, especially when there's so many ways using programs like Dreamweaver templates or PHP or whatever to give common headers and footers to each page.

8/23/2005 11:56:55 AM

no ... I am using almost 100% css on this site. The framing you are talking about is probably as a result of the domain being redirected.

I guess my widescreen laptop is skrinking everything, because nothing looks "huge" although i understand that 36 is pretty big. Also, each of the column headers should match the font of the Logo on the left, but that probably isnt the case on some browsers. IE and Mozilla, which i use to as the testing browsers, show the fonts correctly.

8/23/2005 12:05:31 PM

either use standard fonts or convert to images.
you have to consider that you are designing a website for the people you want to look at it, not for your computer.

you may have font XYZ installed, but you can only count on other people having the main default fonts. if you must have text in a certain font, make it an image or your viewers won't be seeing the same thing you do.

if you're going to do hover links, then you have to make the linked areas obvious. i wanted to click on "new users". i would suggest making "new users" the link, if not that entire block of text.

your wheel links in the upper right are bad size for that font. hard to read, especially for half blind users (IE: older people). you either need to make the text bigger so the font can be seen, or change the font. i would suggest change the font.

i and others could go on and on. the biggest piece of advice is keep it simple and also realize that just cause it looks right on your screen doesn't mean it will look right on every screen. you have to design and code for the masses, not just yourself.

8/23/2005 12:08:28 PM

right... thanks for the advice.... Im trying to see how the masses are seeing it, but it looks good on my computer, and on the one at work too, so its hard for me to see it in its ugliest form.

IMO, the browsers should update themselves with a bigger list of fonts...

8/23/2005 12:12:54 PM

You need some investors. 404.

8/23/2005 12:22:16 PM

Looks pretty good overall from a non-techie standpoint.

But you're selling an Acura CL for $87k that looks like an NSX?

8/23/2005 12:35:14 PM

^ that was just a test car that i threw in there... your right... it is a pic of an nsx.

You see, this site integrates the inventory from other small dealers websites... right now there are two, and one of them hasnt taken any pictures yet, and the other hasnt started using it yet because we are still working on finishing some other requests he had for the site, so for his site I just created a test case(2 cars) to show him what it would look like.

BTW, I will create a new thread when its open to individual users to post their cars.... will stay local to the area for now...


^^404??

[Edited on August 23, 2005 at 12:41 PM. Reason : .]

8/23/2005 12:40:23 PM

Since the site is fixed width, at least center it in the browser window. It should really be variable width though.

The titles on the main page are fucking huge, and I'm on a 1280x1024 monitor. Everything is spread out. Shrink that shit down some. If things get cluttered use lines to seperate the choices.

Maybe setup the 1st and 4th columns with a light grey background. Anything to keep your mainpage from just looking like a bunch of randomly placed text.

In your inventory, the column titles should be centered or left. Lose the light yellow rows and replace them with light green or something in your color scheme. The table cells need borders.

Why would someone want to "Make a Donation" to a used car lot?



[Edited on August 23, 2005 at 1:55 PM. Reason : .]

8/23/2005 1:46:34 PM

At work and using 800x600 and you have to scroll horizontal. Try testing some different resolutions. And that font is pretty bad.

8/23/2005 1:49:07 PM

Works for me on mozilla. And, the page looks about average. The edges of that big green bar could be rounded.

8/23/2005 2:47:15 PM

In Safari the pictures of cars don't load.

8/23/2005 2:51:15 PM

i'm also on safari and the pictures load fine

8/23/2005 3:05:01 PM

^looks fine to me too


Warning: mysql_pconnect(): Too many connections in /home/virtual/site103/fst/var/www/html/Connections/connCars.php on line 9

Fatal error: Too many connections in /home/virtual/site103/fst/var/www/html/Connections/connCars.php on line 9

[Edited on August 23, 2005 at 3:27 PM. Reason : .]

8/23/2005 3:26:18 PM

The size of the fonts are fine to perhaps a little too large. Use a more legible font, sans-serif, fixed or non-fixded width font. The serif is more suited for a book or an insurance website.

The color palatte is more suitable for a bank, insurance company, capital investment or accounting firm. Forest green doesnt go. If the colors are unchangable, oh well. If you can change them, dont use an IBM blue font. Forest green and IBM blue are too old.

The rows have no continuity. They seem to stagger upwards. The cars in the "Buy" column are really far down, then the text in the Advertise column moves up, then the cars in the Research column move up even higher. Even when I change the size of the text, it pushes the content down yet the spaces above stay the same. In addition there is barely enough visually there to separate the columns.

The bar at the top helps frame the page somewhat but its too large and it almost runs the risk of chopping the page in half. The "Search:Buy:Advertise:Research" titles are too large compared to the rest of the page. You can make them stand out more in the hierarchy using other devices rather than changing the size. If you wanted to include them in the bar above, you could solve 2 problems at once.

The page itself falls too wide, you could squeeze it thinner and make it run longer. It is generally less cumbersome to scroll down rather than scroll horizontally.

Good luck.

8/23/2005 3:30:35 PM

Best display of a warning message ever

Warning: mysql_pconnect(): Too many connections in /home/virtual/site103/fst/var/www/html/Connections/connCars.php on line 9

Fatal error: Too many connections in /home/virtual/site103/fst/var/www/html/Connections/connCars.php on line 9

8/23/2005 3:31:12 PM

yeah my res. is 1680 x 1050 (widescreen) ...

thanks for all the suggestions guys and keep them coming..

Pyro -- when you say table borders, do you mean on the inventory pages or on the main page?


Hmmm.. cant say Ive ever had too many connections before ... is that my hosting solutions problem or is it directly resulting from my implementation??

[Edited on August 23, 2005 at 3:41 PM. Reason : ^]

8/23/2005 3:38:46 PM

Develop for 800x600 or 1024x768 or make it so that screen dimensions don't matter at all.

Do not develop for widescreen monitors over the normal 4:3 resolutions. Instead, work on making sure your page is centered (or stretches properly) in browser windows bigger than the one initially developed for.

Oh yeah, don't use pconnect either. I highly doubt you'll see any benefit from using it over using just connect.

[Edited on August 23, 2005 at 3:44 PM. Reason : .]

8/23/2005 3:43:53 PM

so did one of you codemonkeys bring down progress by accessing my site too many times??

At least I know its not just my site now ...

8/23/2005 3:49:18 PM

erm..... are you on Progress Systems.....? All my DBs are gettin ghte connections error now too. Hopefully it's not being caused by your site. You don't have an excessive amount of queries, do you, or are not closing the connections properly, or some shit like that?

8/23/2005 3:50:03 PM

im pretty sure they are being closed properly ... but its definately down all around

8/23/2005 4:27:03 PM

Warning: mysql_pconnect(): Too many connections in /home/virtual/site103/fst/var/www/html/Connections/connCars.php on line 9

Fatal error: Too many connections in /home/virtual/site103/fst/var/www/html/Connections/connCars.php on line 9

8/23/2005 4:30:04 PM

servers back up now

8/23/2005 7:37:55 PM

I meant you need table cell borders in the inventory. The main page also needs to be seperated/organized somehow, borders would be an option there as well.

8/23/2005 7:49:37 PM

general poor taste and design sense. Get some art fag to fix this shit up for you.

8/23/2005 8:44:13 PM

Some ideas...

Definitely go with a sans-serif font. Serif fonts works best on blogs; the expectation elsewhere is for sans-serif. Even some of the major news sites, e.g. CNN, BBC, go with Verdana and/or Arial. As far as font size goes, the headers would probably look better looking discernably smaller than your header logo.

And "ditto" on the avoiding pconnect. Unless the config is precisely optimized you'll be better off with non-persistent connections.

HTH...

8/23/2005 10:41:57 PM

I think you need to actually finish your other sites first.

8/24/2005 9:26:08 PM

which sites?

8/25/2005 9:23:31 AM

http://www.taylnet.com/

and

http://www.rduconsulting.com/

both of which look horrible and are completely unfinished. The motor-lot site looks pretty abysmal too, but it's mainly because it's using a cookie cutter, aged, and uninspired design.

8/25/2005 12:50:38 PM

OH yeah...

rdu consulting hasnt been touched in ages... nor did i ever consider it finished. It was my practice peice when I was taking some quicktime tutorials a year or so ago. Taylnet is definately a work in progress... slow progress.

I know that I am still learning, hence asking for advice on here, so i wont take offense to your tactless comments ... But at least I can say that I didnt copy anyones shit or use a template off the web somewhere. I learned alot about css and dreamweavers many caveats while putting together those sites, and I do think that I have made tons of progress.

The motor site was my introduction to php and mySQL, so, once again, not really intended to be final product, but a means to learn more. It has just blossomed into an opportunity though for me to make a little extra cash on the side, so I am taking advantage of getting paid to learn, thats all.

Thanks for your input though, and everyone else here who has show me some things that stick out to them. I really do appreciate it.

8/25/2005 3:38:49 PM

well here we go.

- make a new logo, that one is bad
- i can't tell if anything on the page is clickable
- too much space between the logo and top nav (you don't notice it over there)
- if you're going to have the black bar there, include the "raleigh, nc info there along with contact information and do away with the contact us thing at the bottom as it's just "happy talk"
- take the text size down on the headings and make them readable (already mentioned)
- The 3X4 layout leaves you with a lot of uncomfortable white space AND the "category" headings (search, buy, advertise, research) are too detatched from any content - basically you have a big blob of stuff (it's not overall bad, it's just that the fonts and lack of physical distinction are so bad it seems that way)
- I admire you having a good explanation on the search. However, you should change it to "inventory search" as the heading, take out the rest of the text, and make the default entry in the pull down "select a model"
- this also calls into question the top nav - how many people will want to see the entire inventory vs search and will this confuse them with the search box below
- "New Users Register Today to list your car on Motor-Lot.com for FREE" really should be given a high priority and not down at the bottom of the page since all of the users are new - you also need to spell out for them the benefits of registering
- ditch the "Get the New or Used Car you need, from the comfort of your own home." - more "happy talk," but keep "No more driving to every small dealer in town just to find the right car for you." it's the vlaue proposition for the site and it's about the right length to tell people what you do
- in conjunction with the above note, do away with the "buy" heading altogether - i think the search, if given a more prominent look suffices - the only thing people can do on the site at present is buy - if you make them choose between searching and buying, you're only going to confuse (although, since nothing is clickable, they will eventually bounce to the search function)
- you could also move the search under "buy" and then set up a "sell" link since that's what you're asking new users to do - you should probably change that part to "sell" instead of "new users" never mind that part from before about moving it - you still need to move it, but change it to "sell" and then give it equal billing with the "buy" part with the search under it

that's a start anyway - but the first areas to concentrate on are designating the different areas of the page, getting everything lined up, and changing that god-awful font

gl&hf

p.s. - PLEASE go look at CarMax - it's an excellent website for getting users to inventory - they have awesome conversion once people walk onto the lot if they have been on the site previously


[Edited on August 25, 2005 at 5:05 PM. Reason : i should be charging for this]

8/25/2005 4:56:37 PM

I honest to god didn't intend my comments to be taken mean spiritedly.

Your design for that site is extremely cookie-cutter, it's the same as nearly every listing agent package default I can think of. Whether you coded it yourself or not, isn't the point.

My #1 piece of advice is to hire a designer to do the frontend design work, and keep up the learning for all the backend coding. There are just honestly too many fundamental things wrong with all three sites to bother trying to point them out to be "fixed".

8/25/2005 6:14:25 PM

^^, ^ Cool.. especially Drtaylor... that was way out of your way to give all that advice. I do appreciate it. .. You too NOEN... the comments before just didnt seem very constructive, but instead came off as plain old critical.

I have shown the site to non techies, and most have liked it and said it looked proffessional, but of course that was when they were viewing it from my computer. Im not sure that I am looking to put money up to get custom designs for a logo ( I actually thought the logo was pretty good ) but I would consider some help for the other parts since I am anything BUT creative, and I know that.

The other sites are out of the question.... Im not looking to mess with those right now. The motor site is the only one that I really have an immediate opportunity to make a little extra on, so I want to focus what little time I have on making it better.

Are the images ok? I thought they looked good enough.

Remember, Im looking for good enough, not really looking for out of this world and original for the most part. I dont think i have the creative juices to get into that area of development, so i just want to make it non offensive to the regular user.

Thanks again everyone for your help, and ill get started on putting some of those great suggestions to work.

8/26/2005 8:56:45 AM

as far as the logo goes, just ditch the .com, that will go a long way to improving it - the horizontal/vertical contrast with non-coordinating colors is kind of jarring

it doesn't have to be fancy, what you have is probably fine, but if you leave it like that then use a normal font for the rest of the page to designate the logo as special (and so that people can read it)

8/26/2005 9:03:28 AM

it says motor lot.com raleigh nc

but you are located in garner

8/26/2005 9:08:42 AM

actually i live in raleigh -- welcome to my thread

8/26/2005 9:17:55 AM

If you want to go it alone, here are some resources to get you started with design fundamentals, mostly geared toward the web. But seriously, this is what people go to school for years to learn. Design isn't something you can buy a program to do, or follow some instruction book.

http://www.pantos.org/atw/basics.html
http://internetbrothers.com/layout.htm
http://www.digital-web.com/articles/elements_of_design/ (This is an EXCELLENT beginning)
http://char.txa.cornell.edu/ (Also VERY good)
http://www.digital-web.com/articles/color_theory_for_the_colorblind/
'
And i'd recommend this book http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0764588338/digitalwebmagazi/104-3868466-3013516

Just spend a weekend crash course style and then revisit the site, you should begin to see what needs to be changed, but more importantly Why.

Hope that helps some, and once again I apologize if I'm coming off as being a peckerhead in this, but it was my profession and I take a lot of pride in it.

8/26/2005 5:34:42 PM

I'm with Noen on this. It's my profession as well.

-ZiP!-

8/26/2005 5:58:26 PM

you also need to check out http://www.useit.com

there may even be a report or two that you should pay for

it's all fantastic information on web design done RIGHT

it's not my profession, but i find myself doing this professionally at the moment - and it's pretty much what i do - design sites and then tell code monkeys to go make them for me

8/26/2005 8:16:22 PM

you can combine fireworks with dreamweaver to get out of the "cookie cutter" sites by having a header and footer in dreamweaver and then tweaking the css around it...

http://www.potentialis.org
http://www.chris-moody.com
http://www.poetree.chris-moody.com
http://www.ncsu.edu/csleps
http://www.cvgirlscouts.org

those are some that i've worked on with that same method...

8/29/2005 12:47:01 AM

thank you God that there are some other people other than me that feel the same way

8/29/2005 1:12:10 AM

^^ Those arent very good examples. The header and footers are horrendously large and overbearing on pretty much every site you listed.

8/29/2005 3:12:03 AM

well all of the clients have been happy with them

for most company sites you need a larger header to keep the company name prominently displayed (or at least i have found that to be true)

8/29/2005 9:36:58 AM

yea, not at all. And the constant splash page is another complete waste. Your clients might like it, but if they just wanted something they "like" they could have made it themselves.

8/29/2005 2:41:35 PM

personally, i don't like a splash page even though i have one, but many of my clients insisted on having an intro page with flash (my main use of it was another link for some google search money ).

if you are talking about design, i could go on for pages about improvements you could make to your lackluster, visually unappealing site http://www.snotmonkey.com/

some clients just don't desire the stripped look of a lot of the sites that you prefer...different strokes for different folks. but for the companies that i have worked for the image presentation of their webpage is every bit as important as their logo, company colors, marketing campaign, etc.

and obviously by being on tww for a while, i know that you will defend your views til death (Noen), so we'll just agree to disagree...but my banking account shows that the companies i have done webpages, logos, corporate identity and marketing campaigns for are extremely satisfied...

although i am a fan of one of the sites you posted http://www.digital-web.com/articles/elements_of_design/

[Edited on August 29, 2005 at 3:55 PM. Reason : /]

8/29/2005 3:45:07 PM

Quote :

"personally, i don't like a splash page even though i have one, but many of my clients insisted on having an intro page with flash"

Again which is why they hire YOU, as a designer, to tell them NOT to do it. Caving into monetary reward isn't exactly a trait I would emphasize as you are doing. What the fuck good is getting paid to create something that doesn't represent what you stand for?

Quote :

"if you are talking about design, i could go on for pages about improvements you could make to your lackluster, visually unappealing site http://www.snotmonkey.com/ "

I'd honest to god love to hear them. I'm not at all happy with the site other than the base frontpage design. Everthing else on it is visually shit, from navigation to organization. I know this and completely acknowledge it. It's on my list of things to do, but unfortunately I have way too many things of higher importance. Right now it serves its purpose, a small journal, a collection of articles and a photo gallery for my friends and family.

Quote :

"some clients just don't desire the stripped look of a lot of the sites that you prefer...different strokes for different folks. but for the companies that i have worked for the image presentation of their webpage is every bit as important as their logo, company colors, marketing campaign, etc. "

I don't prefer "stripped" sites. I like sites that meet the needs of the audience. It just happens that most of my clients have been large entities with very very broad audiences. I have absolutely no problem with sites that go for visual flair and a more art over useable appeal if that is what the client's needs dictate It's part of being a DESIGNER and not a damn business stooge. If someone hires you to design something for them, they are hiring your expertise, knowledge and skills. Not a fucking yes man who will do what they want just because they want it. If they want to get what they want, they can do the shit themselves.

Quote :

"and obviously by being on tww for a while, i know that you will defend your views til death (Noen), so we'll just agree to disagree...but my banking account shows that the companies i have done webpages, logos, corporate identity and marketing campaigns for are extremely satisfied..."

Once again, I think it's pretty fucking lame to proclaim that you are making money basically being a design whore to every client. Rather, how about telling us how successful those sites have been for your clients?

Because, while we may not agree on each other's design philosophies, or even aesthetic appeal, I can show you how the work I have done for EVERY client has made a significant financial impact on their business. And I can point out hundreds of times when I had to fight against crap that they wanted in favor of what I and my employees knew was the right design and business decision. COMMERCIAL web design is about making your client's website as profitable as possible, NOT making them happy with it. And those two things do not always necessarily coincide initially (although after seeing the bottom line down the road, you'd be amazed how quickly people come around)

I don't have any personal issue with your sites, but don't even fucking try to call me out on the design, business or marketing of the web. And don't try to present work as some example of great design, when you have even SAID it was at your client's behest and not your own.

8/29/2005 8:22:55 PM