Quote :

"Do the Math From: Republicans Table One of the Republicans' main Katrina talking points is that the local N.O. gov't was primarily at fault for unnecessary deaths as they did not evacuate everyone. They often intone this while showing dozens of flooded Orleans Parish school buses that they believe stand as a silent indictment of Mayor Ray Nagin. Sep 09, 2005 -- 03:51:04 AM EST Last night, while flipping channels, I stopped on Fox 'News' and watched as Newt Gingrich was interviewed on Hannity and Colmes. Gingrich did his part and opined that the Mayor Ray Nagin and the city government of N.O. had been negligent in not evacuating everyone since Nagin knew 'days in advance' that the hurricane was coming. 'Days in advance?' You wonder if Newt's ever dealt personally with the reality of preparing for a hurricane. You always know 'days in advance' that a hurricane's coming -- you just don't know where it's going to land. New Orleans was at the center of the projected landfall area early on -- but nearly every Gulf hurricane aims at New Orleans initially -- it was only Saturday that it began to look seriously like landfall at N.O. On Sunday, Katrina was beefed up and it looked even more ominous for N.O. As we all know, the 'mandatory' evacuation was called late Sunday morning. So it's clear that Nagin did not have 'days' to evacuate. In fact, Katrina was not even strong enough to seriously consider evacuation until Saturday. She came ashore some 48 hours later. But why not evacuate everybody anyway? There was never a plan to evacuate the sick and infirm -- 'special needs' people is what they called them in the emergency preparedness meetings I attended -- and there was never, NEVER a plan to evacuate them before a storm. They were to be 'sheltered in place' and then evacuated after the storm passed. (I know this as I was one of the 'lucky' few who would remain behind with them.) For many of these people, the act of evacuation alone can be life threatening and many needed to be evacuated to health care facilities. Most health care facilities simply cannot take a major influx of patients without substantial preparation. But leave the sick aside -- what about all the able-bodied poor? Why not get them out? Well, we're not talking about a handful of people. In N.O., this group numbered at least 100,000 souls. They, too, needed somewhere to go -- just getting out of the city could have been deadly since no hurricane just stops once it comes ashore. Katrina was no different. She plowed inland and remained a Category 2 hurricane all the way to Hattiesburg, MS -- 111 miles from N.O. It was still at or near Cat 1 when it hit Meridian, MS, nearly 200(!) miles from New Orleans. Katrina left devastation in her wake throughout south and central Mississippi and many, even as far north as Jackson, remain, today, without essential services like water and electricity (my sister, who lives in Hattiesburg, only today had power restored.) Evacuating from the city without getting out of the path of the storm would have been as cruel and possibly even more deadly than not evacuating at all. But, hey, let's imagine that there was a safe place to evacuate 100,000 people with little or no means to support themselves. Just what would it take to accomplish that? Well, a few simple calculations show that, even with all those flooded school buses, it might have been an insurmountable task. If you assume 100,000 people with 24 hours to evacuate (which, in the case of Katrina, was actually less than 20) you would have to average nearly 4200 people evacuated per hour. Large school buses hold about 75 passengers. That means you'd need over 2600 buses -- BIG buses. End to end they would comprise a line of buses 20 miles long! And, of course, 2600 bus drivers -- drivers that were simply not available according to reports I've heard (using inexperienced drivers may have been as dangerous as just staying put -- driving a bus is not like tooling around in your Honda -- it is a skill unto itself.) As a practical matter, say it took 30 minutes to load a bus, you would have to load close to 100 buses simultaneously, continuously, hour after hour to even begin to get out of town and beat the storm. What about just making round trips with fewer buses? Not really an option since all the interstates out of the city were operating under 'contra-flow' so all lanes, north- and south-bound, were north-bound only. Returning vehicles would have been like spawning salmon swimming against the tide. The resulting traffic snarl would have been horrendous. The math just doesn't work. There is no practical, real-world way, given the typical time allowed by an approaching storm and the geographic challenges of New Orleans, to evacuate 100,000 people who cannot provide their own means of transportation. The emergency prep guys in the area knew it and it was obvious to anyone familiar with the demographics of Orleans Parish. I sat through many emergency prep meetings in New Orleans and it was the 'elephant in the room' that nobody really talked about. The official response to a Cat 4 or higher storm was to evacuate -- when they'd say that, some of us would just look at each other and shake our heads. We knew -- and they knew -- it just wasn't plausible. Post-storm evacuation would be the the only way to go for many low income, as well as ill, residents and we knew that we would be depending on outside help for that. If I had been in my old job in Metairie last Monday, I would have been on top of my hospital searching the skies for those rescue choppers. What we didn't know was how long the wait, and how inadequate that outside help, would be. Our disaster planning did not take into consideration one major threat -- the nonchalant incompetence of the Bush Administration. "

9/9/2005 11:53:34 PM

Quote :

"Nagin orders mandatory evacuation in face of Katrina 10:11 AM CDT on Sunday, August 28, 2005 WWLTV.com Mayor Ray Nagin ordered a mandatory evacuation of the city of New Orleans in the face of Category-5 Katrina which was expected to make a direct strike on the city early Monday. Nagin said that the predicted tidal surges and heavy rains could mean widespread flooding and power outages that could last for some time. The order extends to everyone in the city of New Orleans with the following exceptions: Essential military and law enforcement personnel from the city and state, regulated utilities employees, essential members of the media, hospital employees and their patients, medical personnel, Criminal Sheriff's personnel and inmates and hotels and their patrons. Nagin said the city could and would commandeer any property or vehicle it deemed necessary to provide safe shelter or transport for those in need. He also opened the Louisiana Superdome as a shelter of last resort that would begin accepting people around Noon. He said the Dome would have few supplies and that people were expected to bring food and other necessary items. RTA buses were going to be sent to pick up those going to shelters at designated pickup points. Nagin discouraged staying in the Superdome, saying that people would not have access to power and possibly plumbing. His pickup spots were: Martin Luther King Elementary. William Franz Elementary. Warren Easton High School. Israel Augustine School. McMain Magnet School. Sylvanie Williams Elementary School. Rabouin School. Arthur Mondy in Algiers. O. Perry Walker High School. Abramson High School. Sara T. Reed School New Orleans Mission "

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWL082705nagin.b7724856.html

Double posting, and I don't care.

9/9/2005 11:55:14 PM

so joy. he ordered an evacuation. whoopty fucking do. If you read the first fucking article, it doesn 't say "there was no evacuation." It says "the evacuation was doomed from the beginning." stop drinkin that kool-aid, dumbass

9/10/2005 1:00:58 AM

Stop blaming Nagin and posting fucking flooded buses, moron.

Blame the ones in charge, Bush and Brownie.

Quote :

"First Responders Urged Not To Respond To Hurricane Impact Areas Unless Dispatched By State, Local Authorities Release Date: August 29, 2005 Release Number: HQ-05-174 WASHINGTON D.C. -- Michael D. Brown, Under Secretary of Homeland Security for Emergency Preparedness and Response and head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), today urged all fire and emergency services departments not to respond to counties and states affected by Hurricane Katrina without being requested and lawfully dispatched by state and local authorities under mutual aid agreements and the Emergency Management Assistance Compact. “The response to Hurricane Katrina must be well coordinated between federal, state and local officials to most effectively protect life and property,” Brown said. “We appreciate the willingness and generosity of our Nation’s first responders to deploy during disasters. But such efforts must be coordinated so that fire-rescue efforts are the most effective possible.” The U.S. Fire Administration, part of FEMA, asks that fire and emergency services organizations remain in contact with their local and state emergency management agency officials for updates on requirements in the affected areas. “It is critical that fire and emergency departments across the country remain in their jurisdictions until such time as the affected states request assistance,” said U.S. Fire Administrator R. David Paulison. “State and local mutual aid agreements are in place as is the Emergency Management Assistance Compact and those mechanisms will be used to request and task resources needed in the affected areas.” Paulison said the National Incident Management System is being used during the response to Hurricane Katrina and that self-dispatching volunteer assistance could significantly complicate the response and recovery effort. FEMA prepares the nation for all hazards and manages federal response and recovery efforts following any national incident. FEMA also initiates mitigation activities, trains first responders, works with state and local emergency managers, and manages the National Flood Insurance Program and the U.S. Fire Administration. FEMA became part of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security on March 1, 2003. "

http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=18470

9/10/2005 1:17:09 AM

remind me again why we shouldn't blame him? I mean, you know, a botched evacuation and botched planning for such an emergency?

Quote :

"First Responders Urged Not To Respond To Hurricane Impact Areas Unless Dispatched By State, Local Authorities"

i know, what a crazy idea to delegate such things to people who know more about the area than dubya...

9/10/2005 1:19:00 AM

Quote :

"http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=18470 [quote]BATON ROUGE—Today Governor Kathleen Babineaux Blanco forwarded a letter to President Bush requesting that he declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina. The full text of the letter follows: August 27, 2005 The President The White House Washington, D. C. Through: Regional Director FEMA Region VI 800 North Loop 288 Denton, Texas 76209 Dear Mr. President: Under the provisions of Section 501 (a) of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, 42 U.S.C. §§ 5121-5206 (Stafford Act), and implemented by 44 CFR § 206.35, I request that you declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina for the time period beginning August 26, 2005, and continuing. The affected areas are all the southeastern parishes including the New Orleans Metropolitan area and the mid state Interstate I-49 corridor and northern parishes along the I-20 corridor that are accepting the thousands of citizens evacuating from the areas expecting to be flooded as a result of Hurricane Katrina. In response to the situation I have taken appropriate action under State law and directed the execution of the State Emergency Plan on August 26, 2005 in accordance with Section 501 (a) of the Stafford Act. A State of Emergency has been issued for the State in order to support the evacuations of the coastal areas in accordance with our State Evacuation Plan and the remainder of the state to support the State Special Needs and Sheltering Plan."

http://www.gov.state.la.us/Press_Release_detail.asp?id=976

Owned, motherfucker! Now you and your other user acct, GGMon stay out of the fucking SB until you can back your shit up!

[Edited on September 10, 2005 at 1:20 AM. Reason : ,]

9/10/2005 1:20:33 AM

Quote :

" United States National Response Plan RESPONSIBILITIES OF STATE AND LOCAL OFFICIALS The "basic premise of the NRP is that incidents are generally handled at the state and local level." (NRP, 15). However, the plan specifically recognizes the possibility that the FEDERAL government bears primary responsibility: When an incident or potential incident is of such severity, magnitude, and/or complexity that it is considered an Incident of National Significance, the Secretary of Homeland Security initiates actions to prepare for, respond to, and recover from the incident." (NHP, 15) Additionally, the NRP explicitly gives the President a fiduciary duty in the handling of a disaster: "The President leads the Nation in responding efficiently and ensuring the necessary resources are applied quickly and effectively to all Incidents of National Significance." (NHP, 15)"

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Democrat_calls_on_Congressional_Research_Service_to_reviewlaw_around_disaster__0907.html

To learn more about who's responsible;

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/interapp/editorial/editorial_0566.xml

9/10/2005 1:23:10 AM

^^

Quote :

"Today Governor Kathleen Babineaux Blanco forwarded a letter to President Bush requesting that he declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina."

so, in other words, on the 27th the governor knew it was going to go to shit and she passed the buck to dubya and made no effort to evacuate NO? and somehow the end result of dead people in NO is DUBYA's fault?

you keep digging that hole deeper, pryderi...

9/10/2005 1:28:14 AM

this thread is already off to a good start now that the intellectual giants have weighed in

9/10/2005 1:32:56 AM

"Instead of trying to evacuate some people with the resources we have available, let's just have everyone die."

Sounds like typical thinking of teh L3ft. So I'll go ahead and approve this thread, and give a gg to pryderi.

[Edited on September 10, 2005 at 2:39 AM. Reason : ---]

9/10/2005 2:39:42 AM

Quote :

""Instead of trying to evacuate some people with the resources we have available, let's just have everyone die." Sounds like typical thinking of teh L3ft."

Wow, another strawman. Have you been taking lessons with Karl Rove?

9/10/2005 2:50:13 AM

Quote :

"pryderi: Dispelling the Katrina-Nagin-Bus Myth"

Quote :

"pryderi: What about just making round trips with fewer buses? Not really an option."

You have buses. You decide not to use buses at all b/c you can't get everybody out, IOW you let everyone die.

(and then, just to be farcical, blame the President for inaction)

Find me the strawman.

[Edited on September 10, 2005 at 3:01 AM. Reason : I ::heart:: teh L3ft...]

9/10/2005 3:00:11 AM

It's not "typical" thinking, and Nagin is hardly a member of the "left", with some close ties to the Republican party.

Not to mention that he DID get people evacuated, it's not like they didn't try at all.

Plus, you seem to be taken aback with people also blaming Bush and FEMA, which is hypocritical. Even if Nagin botched the evacuation (which I think he did), that doesn't excuse FEMA and Bush from botching the recovery (which I also believe they did). Not to mention it was Bush who appointed Brown in the first place. Bush couldn't have known Brown would have dropped the ball in this situation, but he IS at fault for hiring someone clearly less than qualified (he got axed from Katrina duty, if you haven't heard). Incompetence lies all over the place in this situation.

I think though with Nagin being the mayor, people are going easy on him. I live in Clayton, and I really couldn't see the mayor handling anything close to a city-wide flood. The state gov. and the national gov. would have to step in pretty much immediately. NO is quite a bit bigger than Clayton, but I doubt Nagin thought his duties would have entailed handling the destruction of his city. I just feel bad putting that responsibility on a mayor. The state and national gov. though has lots of resources to handle that kind of thing, and both screwed up pretty bad in this case.

9/10/2005 3:17:28 AM

Quote :

"hey, let's imagine that there was a safe place to evacuate 100,000 people with little or no means to support themselves. Just what would it take to accomplish that? Well, a few simple calculations show that, even with all those flooded school buses, it might have been an insurmountable task. If you assume 100,000 people with 24 hours to evacuate (which, in the case of Katrina, was actually less than 20) you would have to average nearly 4200 people evacuated per hour. Large school buses hold about 75 passengers. That means you'd need over 2600 buses -- BIG buses. End to end they would comprise a line of buses 20 miles long! And, of course, 2600 bus drivers -- drivers that were simply not available according to reports I've heard (using inexperienced drivers may have been as dangerous as just staying put -- driving a bus is not like tooling around in your Honda -- it is a skill unto itself.) As a practical matter, say it took 30 minutes to load a bus, you would have to load close to 100 buses simultaneously, continuously, hour after hour to even begin to get out of town and beat the storm."

Nagin made his best effort under the circumstances, unlike FEMA.

9/10/2005 7:58:56 AM

A better question is

who DIDN'T botch proactive and reactive efforts and planning?

....

......

.........

.....

9/10/2005 9:09:37 AM

^^ wait, which is it again? "Nagin's evacuation measures were sufficient, even though they were announced AT LEAST A DAY AFTER the governor wanted to declare a state of emergency" or "I'm just a stupid sheepish Bush hater who is just as dumb as the sheepish Bush lovers"

Quote :

"Even if Nagin botched the evacuation (which I think he did), that doesn't excuse FEMA and Bush from botching the recovery (which I also believe they did)."

terribly valid point.

but, moron, I DON'T agree with your assertion that the mayor should be expected to be clueless. You tried to compare the mayor of Clayton, a podunk little town, with the mayor of the metropolis of New Orleans. The level of competence between those positions is drastically different because the pool of qualified applicants for each job is drastically different. I wouldn't put the mayor of Clayton in charge of New Orleans under ANY circumstances. Furthermore, the actual responsibilities of the two positions are also different because of the difference in size of the two cities.

A mayor of a metropolis simply ought to have more skills and abilities in dealing with disasters, ESPECIALLY from a standpoint of preparedness for such disasters (IE, evacuation efforts, planning, shelter logistics, etc) than would a mayor of a podunk town.

9/10/2005 9:34:51 AM

If they had moved the school buses to the elevated highway right before the storm hit, or after the storm but before the flooding was severe, They could have used them as shelters and escape vehicles.

Would the buses have stayed or been blown off the highway?

9/10/2005 10:20:36 AM

Quote :

"moron: It's not "typical" thinking, and Nagin is hardly a member of the "left", with some close ties to the Republican party."

We're going off the rationale of pryderi's posted polemics here, which can basically be summed up with "Forget the Democrat mayor and Democrat governor, let's get back to blaming Bush!"

So find me the strawman...

9/10/2005 11:38:25 AM

Quote :

"We're going off the rationale of pryderi's posted polemics here, which can basically be summed up with "Forget the Democrat mayor and Democrat governor, let's get back to blaming Bush!""

yup..

i think pryderi's real problem must be that he is lazy and has no responsibility. this translates into his views of government as well. he cant imagine that someone on the local level should take responsibility for something. and he certainly cant imagine that someone at the local level should have actually done something to prevent the NO from happening. If something goes wrong in this country is it immediately someone elses (Bush and the federal government) fault.

9/10/2005 11:43:33 AM

Quote :

"A better question is who DIDN'T botch proactive and reactive efforts and planning?"

[/thread]

9/10/2005 11:45:51 AM

I made this thread in the hopes of preventing stupid posts like this one:

Quote :

" Some buses in New Orleans less than 1 mile from the superdome that could have been used to transport people but weren't. Estimated at 9,000 "seats" that could have been filled for the evacuation that. More buses in New Orleans that would allow for another 16,000 to evacuate. While some might want to think this is an example of local and state authorities fucking things up, I blame Bush. Its a shame Bush didn't get off his ass and drive those buses. [Edited on September 8, 2005 at 5:15 PM. Reason : 2nd pic]"

9/10/2005 7:40:12 PM

Quote :

"pryderi: I made this thread in the hopes of preventing stupid posts like this one:"

What makes the post stupid again? 138 buses in that first pic x 50 people = 6,900 people that wouldn't have had to die (assuming that many have actually died overall)

And that's just one trip, since "OMF the lanes were all one direction!!1"...

9/10/2005 10:39:31 PM

And on a side note, who are you to talk about stupid posts when you write something like:

Quote :

"pryderi: August 28: Mayor Nagin ordered a mandatory evacuation and sent buses to designated pickup points throughout the city. Residents had 24 hours to evacuate. If they didn't show up at the pickup points, why is it Nagin's fault?"

I still don't get how a bunch of those evil evil Jews in the Middle East can dismantle entire blocs of their country in under a week, but Democrats can't empty a few neighborhoods even with a mandatory evacuation order...

9/10/2005 10:45:42 PM

Quote :

"What makes the post stupid again? 138 buses in that first pic x 50 people = 6,900 people that wouldn't have had to die (assuming that many have actually died overall)"

Because they had already evacuated everyone who had shown up at the pickup spots. People didn't go to the Superdome until after the storm hit, by which time it was too late. The buses were under water before people showed up at the Superdome.

9/10/2005 11:07:47 PM

Why? The water rose at a finite pace, they should have notice the water was rising and gotten the buses to safety because they were going to need them later.

9/11/2005 11:13:39 AM

Quote :

"pryderi: Because they had already evacuated everyone who had shown up at the pickup spots."

Quote :

"TGD: I still don't get how a bunch of those evil evil Jews in the Middle East can dismantle entire blocs of their country in under a week, but Democrats can't empty a few neighborhoods even with a mandatory evacuation order..."

9/11/2005 11:29:27 AM

^

Is that really the comparison you want to make? Israel sent in a federal force of troops to remove the settlers. And doesn't Israel forcefully conscript their military?

But I digress. Anyone here who thinks civilians should drive busses full of violent hoodlums out of a razed city, raise your hands. And -- if you'd be willing to do it, please, raise yours.

[Edited on September 11, 2005 at 1:34 PM. Reason : foo]

9/11/2005 1:33:16 PM

I would. The people of NO were only crazed because they couldn't leave the city. What are they going to do? Shoot the driver?

9/11/2005 2:06:11 PM

^

Hijack the bus?

As to the first part of your post--have you ever BEEN to New Orleans?

9/11/2005 2:08:55 PM

Quote :

"Smoker4: Is that really the comparison you want to make? Israel sent in a federal force of troops to remove the settlers. And doesn't Israel forcefully conscript their military?"

The fact it was the federal military is irrelevant when the expulsion didn't require the use of military force; they were in effect merely agents of "teh g0v" removing people. From the standpoint of your average citizen, there is no distinction in "teh g0v" -- and hence it's nothing the Louisiana National Guard (or even New Orleans PD) couldn't have done themselves.

9/11/2005 2:19:57 PM

^

So the fact that the Gaza pullout was organized by a centralized, highly-disciplined, eminently-competent, military hierarchy, had nothing to do with the fact that it was able to execute so well?

In effect you're saying "if one of the most rapacious and effective military powers in the world can execute massive evacuations on short notice, why can't the state of Louisiana?"

Uh ...

9/11/2005 2:31:02 PM

^
exaggerate much?

If the technology exists for the Census Bureau to count everyone in a neighborhood, the National Guard can grab a GIS map and go door-to-door...

9/11/2005 2:34:45 PM

^

I don't think it's an exaggeration at all. Israel's around because they have a fucking badass military, and they don't fuck around.

Quote :

"If the technology exists for the Census Bureau to count everyone in a neighborhood, the National Guard can grab a GIS map and go door-to-door..."

Yes, and Ray Nagin can run around the city with night vision goggles. And let's call in Batman, too ...

9/11/2005 2:37:40 PM

Quote :

"Smoker4: Yes, and Ray Nagin can run around the city with night vision goggles. And let's call in Batman, too ..."

Cute. The difference is municipalities already use GIS maps for just about everything already, and any average guy on the street can pick up a handheld GPS

9/11/2005 2:57:49 PM

^

What is this, Systems Integration for Dummies?

You sound like every technology executive in the world. "Why it ought to be easy to just plug A into B, and presto-chango!" $150 million of cost overruns later ...

::sigh::

9/11/2005 3:23:37 PM

Quote :

"Smoker4: You sound like every technology executive in the world."

No, I sound like someone that has been working with this stuff and the City of Raleigh for almost two years now. A city the size of New Orleans already has a GIS overlay of every single tract of land in every single parish. There was nothing stopping the National Guard from getting a little handheld GPS device (for well under $150 million, natch), loading up the map, and going tract by tract to grab people and check them off the list.

I really don't even get why this is a debate: that's exactly what they're doing now in their house-to-house search getting the minglers to evacuate. What stopped them from doing it before?

9/11/2005 3:29:44 PM

^

There was nothing stopping them except time and coordination, which is ALWAYS the problem with the "lets connect A to B for cheap" mentality. If you didn't catch my drift, "$150 million" and "precious time before a Hurricane hits" are the same thing (time really is money).

They ARE doing the GIS/GPS thing NOW, but that's no indictment of the pre-Hurricane planning, because the logistics and time constraints NOW are very much different.

One technical glitch in the GIS/GPS integration, distribution, etc process would've set them back hours. And having been involved in plenty of such situations, I can tell you that Murphy's Law always strikes.

You can argue that they should've had a plan to do such things prior, but to say they should've done it ad hoc, is crazy.

9/11/2005 4:11:09 PM

It's just a republican game to foist the blame on local authorities.

Face it, except for the PR machine, the Bush administration is incompetent.

9/11/2005 7:46:44 PM

^ Probably, I've seen nothing to say otherwise. But proving the butcher is an idiot doesn't excuse the baker for starting the fire.

9/11/2005 10:25:01 PM

Just to throw some more gas on the fire. The mayor is an idiot and should be put on trial. Having said that, NO evacuated at a higher % than folks during a mandatory evacuation during Hurricane Floyd.

Party on.

9/11/2005 10:38:31 PM

Quote :

"The mayor is an idiot and should be put on trial."

Why? Because he cursed on the air? I guess we should put cheney on trial too.

9/11/2005 11:07:56 PM

Quote :

"there is no distinction in "teh g0v" -- and hence it's nothing the Louisiana National Guard (or even New Orleans PD) couldn't have done themselves."

So the ~7500 guys of an 11,500 total Louisiana National Guard force stationed over in Iraq were supposed to come back at a day's notice to evacuate the 100,000 people left behind in New Orleans. Couple that with the 1600 member New Orelans Police force, and I think you've got a really feasible plan in place for door-to-door manual mandatory evac in place! It's foolproof, especially if you get the NG and PD guys GPS units, because we all know every city in America has just got those lying around in a warehouse somewhere, and we know that the training on them will be minimal, because it's a GPS unit! Everyone knows how to use one of those, especially in the face of a Category 5 Hurricane and a simplistic door-to-door cleanout in a widespread metropolitan area! I'm sure you could have it done in.... 6 hours, tops!

































WHAT FUCKING PLANET DO YOU LIVE ON?

[Edited on September 11, 2005 at 11:20 PM. Reason : IT AINT EARTH]

9/11/2005 11:16:40 PM

^
[cute]

Stick to Chit Chat

---

Quote :

"Smoker4: One technical glitch in the GIS/GPS integration, distribution, etc process would've set them back hours. And having been involved in plenty of such situations, I can tell you that Murphy's Law always strikes."

Like what? Hell if you want take the GPS unit out of the equation, since there was no flood water prior to the hurricane and they wouldn't need it to find out where they're going. If you want, take the municipal GIS maps out of the equation too. You've still got Census tracts, or tax rolls, or DMV records, or voter registration. Load into an Excel spreadsheet on some laptops, or print out a bunch of paper copies, and get walking.

I mean jesus titty-fucking christ, this isn't rocket science. Every single half-assed politician in every single half-assed political campaign knows how to do door-to-door campaigning -- you're telling me a city's *entire municipal government* can't figure out how to do door-to-door evacuations for a couple wards?

To borrow kiljadn's pryderi-esque nonsense, what fucking planet do you live on?

---

Quote :

"pryderi: It's just a republican game to foist the blame on local authorities."

This coming from the kid that thinks the local authorities should have just let everyone die instead of saving whoever they could, as long as it helps him sleep better at night blaming everything on the fucking President of the entire country...


[Edited on September 12, 2005 at 12:08 AM. Reason : ---]

9/11/2005 11:55:58 PM

I pretty well obliterated the stupid flooded bus myth.

/thread.

9/12/2005 12:21:19 AM

^ Wait, so those pictures of flooded buses are faked?

Or is everyone right when they say that after the first round of evacuations, the city parked the buses where they would flood, assuming they'd never need them again.

9/12/2005 1:32:51 AM

Quote :

"I mean jesus titty-fucking christ, this isn't rocket science. Every single half-assed politician in every single half-assed political campaign knows how to do door-to-door campaigning -- you're telling me a city's *entire municipal government* can't figure out how to do door-to-door evacuations for a couple wards?"

Of course. Evacuating a major city is just like running a leisurely door-to-door political campaign. And the only problem one can foresee in executing such an event on short notice is ... knowing where to go. Who'd have thought it?

The campaign comparison is particularly silly, I mean--what is the timeframe for a political campaign versus an incoming hurricane? Again, I'll refer you back to my original protest: you're just making assumptions without taking into account any of the actual factors involved in the decision-making (or what Nagin knew at the time).

As far as I can tell, Nagin was basically faced with two choices:

1) try to evacuate everyone, somehow (which, for whatever reason, he didn't share your rosy view of how easy that would be)
2) direct as many people as possible to a strong shelter, with the then-reasonable expectation that the federal government would come within a timely manner and get everyone out

I personally don't think the latter was a particularly bad choice, assuming the federal government lived up to its end of the bargain. The people who died for a lack of forced evacuation were mostly the very infirm and the very stubborn. I don't have much sympathy for the stubborn, and I strongly suspect the authorities were going to have a Hell of a time rolling people out in wheelchairs with their bedpans (although, again, I assume in your view that's just like running a simple political campaign).

(plus in a lot of cases, the failure there was the nursing homes', who had a legal responsibility to evacuate, and scandalously decided to "wait it out")

In general, with low-time, high-risk situations like this, I tend to think the simpler route is usually the more effective, because small errors usually cost a lot of time.

9/12/2005 1:43:35 AM

Quote :

"We're going off the rationale of pryderi's posted polemics here, which can basically be summed up with "Forget the Democrat mayor and Democrat governor, let's get back to blaming Bush!" So find me the strawman..."

I disagree with Pryderi's belief that Bush holds most of the blame, but considering he's the president, he is responsible for more than a meager share.

In any case, pryderi is often dis-owned by democrats here, and it's stupid to use him as the stereotype in your blanket statements of "teh left" or democrats.

9/12/2005 1:45:11 AM

Quote :

"I still don't get how a bunch of those evil evil Jews in the Middle East can dismantle entire blocs of their country in under a week, but Democrats can't empty a few neighborhoods even with a mandatory evacuation order... "

This can't be a serious question...

9/12/2005 1:46:45 AM

Quote :

" Like what? Hell if you want take the GPS unit out of the equation, since there was no flood water prior to the hurricane and they wouldn't need it to find out where they're going. If you want, take the municipal GIS maps out of the equation too. You've still got Census tracts, or tax rolls, or DMV records, or voter registration. Load into an Excel spreadsheet on some laptops, or print out a bunch of paper copies, and get walking. "

This was never really an option. Local authorities simply followed the emergency plans they already had on file. By the time they realized their plans had failed, it would have been too late to do any of this. It is more useful to consider how the existing plans were inadequate and why parts of it failed, and articles to this effect are now popping up.

Besides, we have this excellent point:

Quote :

"In general, with low-time, high-risk situations like this, I tend to think the simpler route is usually the more effective, because small errors usually cost a lot of time."

bingo

[Edited on September 12, 2005 at 2:38 AM. Reason : dsaf]

9/12/2005 2:30:56 AM

i was born in this city. camille didnt get me out. betsy didnt get me out and im sure as hell not gonna let some new storm that will probobly go east anyway get me out. i will die in this city.

9/12/2005 4:07:32 AM