Whenever I start feeling apprehensive about the future of the GOP, the Governor can always brighten my day...

Quote :

"George Stephanopoulos: Everyone agrees Patrick Fitzgerald is an apolitical prosecutor. If this case ends without indictments, will you accept that as the end of it? Howard -I Have a Scream- Dean: [no] Stephanopoulos: Why not? Dean: Because I fundamentally believe these are not honest people running this government."

[Edited on October 23, 2005 at 10:52 AM. Reason : ]

10/23/2005 10:51:27 AM

omf witch hunt

[YARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGL]

10/23/2005 10:57:37 AM

is there a "black list" for republican actors and directors in hollywood?

10/23/2005 11:50:53 AM

republican actors? yeah, i think leprichauns, the tooth fairy, and the easter bunny are all on that list too

10/23/2005 11:55:51 AM

i don't understand. what's wrong with saying the people running the government aren't honest?

10/23/2005 12:15:05 PM

DISHONEST PEOPLE IN THE GOVERNMENT?

WHAT A SHOCKING REVELATION!

10/23/2005 4:22:52 PM

^

10/23/2005 5:05:25 PM

Quote :

"is there a "black list" for republican actors and directors in hollywood?"

of course there is.

but they'd have you believe it's just that "conservatives simply can't be creative"

the worst thing your career can suffer in hollywood is to be outed as a republican.



and george, its not bad until you end the phrase "fundamentally believe these are not honest people running this government" with "which is why my party should be winning the elections"

it's not about the "government" as an institution, but conservative versus liberal bullshit.

[Edited on October 23, 2005 at 5:55 PM. Reason : :]

10/23/2005 5:49:07 PM

Quote :

" "I'm tired of the ayatollahs of the right wing," Dean said. "We're fighting for freedom in Iraq. We're going to fight for freedom in America.""

You can't make this up.

10/23/2005 7:04:26 PM

Quote :

"DirtyGreek: i don't understand. what's wrong with saying the people running the government aren't honest?"

Nothing at all. In fact, I hope they make phrases like that the centerpiece of every Democrat campaign in 2006.

The more time devoted to "OMF Karl Rove / Scooter Libby / Tom DeLay / Bill Frist / etc are corrupt!!1", the less time gets spent making the GOP look bad on issues people actually care about

10/23/2005 9:15:15 PM

Cause people don't care about corruption...

10/23/2005 9:34:29 PM

^cause people dont know who the hell any of those people are or what any of it is all about,

I mean, most voters dont know the names of their fucking congressman do you really expect them to understand this fairly complex scandal?



[Edited on October 23, 2005 at 9:42 PM. Reason : ]

10/23/2005 9:41:10 PM

Who said they have to understand the details?

10/23/2005 9:42:32 PM

except when it is priests corrupting young boiz

10/23/2005 9:43:13 PM

^^they dont, but the basics are a little too complex so most people will just ignore it, especially since it has occured mostly during hurricane season in an off year.

10/23/2005 9:45:15 PM

The basics aren't that complex. People understand retribution.

And no thanks to the Congress of '98, I think people understand pretty damned well what perjury and obstruction of justice mean.

But you're totally naive if you think that by election '06 that 80% of the country will still be unaware who Scooter and Turd Blossom are.

[Edited on October 23, 2005 at 10:00 PM. Reason : reasonless]

10/23/2005 9:48:40 PM

TURD BLOSSOM'S GARAGE!

10/23/2005 9:55:28 PM

Gamecat: you're a college-educated card-carrying member of teh L3ft, of course you'd think it will be relevant. You and about another 4% of the country.

But Clear5 has facts and history backing him up on this. Even the "Gingrich Revolution" was less a product of the GOP bashing Democrat corruption than it was Democrats letting their GOTV machine completely fall apart. Teh R1ght took over in 1994 b/c teh L3ft stayed home; that could likely happen in 2006 for Republicans, unless Democrats keep focusing on Bush's personality traits.

And the country's had 5 years to learn about Turd Blossom, even with W's references to "The Architect" and all the MSM hit pieces on "Bush's Brain"...what makes you think they'll learn in 12 months what they haven't learned in 60?

[Edited on October 23, 2005 at 10:00 PM. Reason : ---]

10/23/2005 9:59:22 PM

Quote :

"TGD: you're a college-educated card-carrying member of teh L3ft, of course you'd think it will be relevant. You and about another 4% of the country."

Are you kidding me?

As I understand it, Nixon's poll numbers weren't too great when he resigned. Corruption--and I mean well-publicized corruption--seems to be something that the American people do not tolerate.

Quote :

"TGD: And the country's had 5 years to learn about Turd Blossom, even with W's references to "The Architect" and all the MSM hit pieces on "Bush's Brain"...what makes you think they'll learn in 12 months what they haven't learned in 60?"

Only political hacks had any reason to know who Karl Rove was prior to this investigation. What makes you think that the country's spent the last 60 months being political hacks?

10/23/2005 10:06:10 PM

Quote :

"Gamecat: As I understand it, Nixon's poll numbers weren't too great when he resigned. Corruption--and I mean well-publicized corruption--seems to be something that the American people do not tolerate."

OK are you seriously trying to use Nixon as your example?

I mean 1) it was the President, 2) who already had a record as being shady (remember he almost got tossed from Eisenhower's ticket when Eisenhower ran for re-election, got defeated by JFK in 1960, and barely squeaked by Humphrey in 1968), 3) and was caught red-handed authorizing a crime 4) that was used exclusively for one-time electoral gain, 5) with Congress firmly in the control of the opposition party.

Not a single one of those apply here, and that's only the first 5 off the top of my head...

---

Quote :

"Gamecat: Only political hacks had any reason to know who Karl Rove was prior to this investigation. What makes you think that the country's spent the last 60 months being political hacks?"

So you think an unelected consultant supposedly running the government ("Bush's Brain" remember) is no "reason to know who Karl Rove was", but the heavily disputed not-quite-sure-if-it-is-or-isn't-a-"leak" of an allegedly still covert CIA analyst, the results of which seem to be nothing but $texas for the agent and her political hack husband who himself is a proven liar, apparently involving a quite a few more people than just Karl Rove is a reason for the country to know who he is?

Spoken like a political hack

10/23/2005 10:35:18 PM

I'm not worried about it, and I'll tell you why.

I try to keep up with things. I check on the news pretty much daily. And I have virtually no idea what any of these Republicans are supposed to be in trouble for. If a reasonably intelligent or at least literate person with even a passing acquaintance with news doesn't know the ins-and-outs of this, then almost nobody in America does.

With Nixon, it was pretty easy: he sent boys to break into some shit, and that's not cool. Nobody in America wanted Nixon to break into their shit, either.

With these guys...OK, so DeLay allegedly violated campaign-finance regulations, right? Wow, that's always been a real hot-button issue. I'm sure that accepting and spending too much money on a campaign get the voters shitting their pants like a secret, James Bond-esque surveillance plot in Watergate would.

First sold some stocks at a suspicious time. Scary. You can't even point to a little old lady and say that Frist's actions took her pension away like you could do with Enron. The people aren't going to see a victim, and until they care what he's in trouble for, they won't care that he's in trouble.

About the only one that's really bad is Rove. You all should focus on him.

10/23/2005 10:35:38 PM

^ That was an entirely different time. They cared, but I don't think they cared for the reason you think they did.

People will start caring when they hear from Leno or Letterman that the President's chief advisor, the VP, his chief advisor, the leader of the Senate, and the leader of the HoR are all being indicted for shady dealings.

You can't tell me that people won't care about that.



[Edited on October 24, 2005 at 12:01 AM. Reason : .]

10/23/2005 11:53:29 PM

Quote :

"the worst thing your career can suffer in hollywood is to be outed as a republican."

AND JUST FOR THE HELL OF IT

and i could keep going....

10/24/2005 12:07:51 AM

Quote :

"That was an entirely different time. They cared, but I don't think they cared for the reason you think they did."

Oh, was it that all the people in the country gave a hoot in hell back then? It's so sweet that you think that.

Quote :

"You can't tell me that people won't care about that. "

Watch me.

10/24/2005 12:30:00 AM

^^^^ That is, by far, the best spin i've seen anyone put on the whole DeLay thing. I'm truly impressed.

10/24/2005 12:32:06 AM

It's truly a valid point that these are trumped-up corruption charges. They simply do not undermine the basic credibility of the administration.

A corruption scandal that would, and should, matter, should show some kind of systemic problem that fundamentally makes the people involved seem untrustworthy as a whole.

Look at Clinton: the man was involved in an extra-marital affair. Regardless of the magnitude of the individual incident, he cheated on his wife. At the office, even.

Nixon was basically running a mafia, and he was using his charges like hitmen.

But dropping the name of a not-so-covert CIA agent in a conversation with a reporter?

Well, regardless of the ethical problems with that one-time charge, it hardly indicates some kind of systematic corruption. It's even been identified as a basically political move, where Ms. Plame was herself involved in direct political one-up-manship.

Nobody is going to say "boy, I really don't trust the President because Karl Rove played dirty." Everybody who knows who Karl Rove is, knows he plays dirty. And everyone who doesn't know who he is, at least knows he isn't George W. Bush. And it's still, even then, obviously a singular incident.

If Karl Rove were so damned special in the eyes of the "common man," he'd be President.

[Edited on October 24, 2005 at 12:41 AM. Reason : foo]

10/24/2005 12:41:38 AM

^true...but also the people will be disappointed becuase the president knew and trusted a criminal. there will be less trust. but bush approval rating probably wont drop below 30.

[Edited on October 24, 2005 at 12:46 AM. Reason : ]

10/24/2005 12:45:23 AM

I don't understand what's the problem with what Dean said. So a particular outcome of one case will not change his conviction that the administration is corrupt. Unless you wanna say that very suggestion is widely acepted as prepostrous (which it isn't), I don't see what's the deal.

I mean, if he said he'd try the case himself, that'd be a stupidity.

10/24/2005 12:49:55 AM

Quote :

"That is, by far, the best spin i've seen anyone put on the whole DeLay thing."

Spin, nothing. It pisses me off, though not because I think he did anything wrong, just because he did something stupid. I don't know enough about it to say one way or the other if I think he's a bad or corrupt person, and I might not say that he is even if I did know that he violated some part of current campaign finance law.

Of course, I should have access to more information about it, but the Democrats are so clusterfucked, the story so boring, that they can't manage to make it readily available to me when I actively research it, let alone without my having to do so.

10/24/2005 1:25:28 AM

Quote :

"I try to keep up with things. I check on the news pretty much daily. And I have virtually no idea what any of these Republicans are supposed to be in trouble for."

-GrumpyGOP

[/thread]

10/24/2005 7:10:57 AM

Quote :

"MathFreak: I don't understand what's the problem with what Dean said. So a particular outcome of one case will not change his conviction that the administration is corrupt. Unless you wanna say that very suggestion is widely acepted as prepostrous (which it isn't), I don't see what's the deal."

plz to read:

http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=359696#7714235

kkthxu

10/24/2005 7:26:50 AM

I can't tell if that's a, "GrumpyGOP is an idiot" [/thread], or a "GrumpyGOP hit the nail on the head" [/thread]

plz to elaborate

10/24/2005 5:22:49 PM

Quote :

"Dean: Because I fundamentally believe these are not honest people running this government."

You know, that sounds strangely familiar. Kinda like what Republicans were saying back in the 90s about Bill Clinton. I don't feel anything about the comment because this is the typical type of remark that's used to attack your political enemies. Especially when you're the opposition party.

Probably the only President I can imagine in recent history that didn't have these sorts of allegations leveled against him was Jimmy Carter. In that case, we just had a naive and incompetent president.

10/24/2005 5:45:14 PM

^^^ I read it, and it doesn't make much sense. [OMF, new!!1] Dean was responding to a specific question, he was not outlining the 2008 campaign strategy.

10/24/2005 8:46:53 PM

http://www.democrats.org/a/national/honest_government/abuse_of_power/

10/24/2005 9:53:10 PM

Quote :

"[user]MathFreak[/usedr]: I read it, and it doesn't make much sense."

How's that?

You asked what was wrong with the statement. I'm telling you there's nothing wrong with it at all, b/c it reflects the mindset of the Democratic Party leadership.

10/24/2005 10:22:17 PM

With our political system, that mindset is necessitated.

If the situation was flipped, the Republicans would say the same thing. Just looking back at the Clinton admin will show this.

But, you knew that of course...

10/25/2005 1:28:54 AM