Granted, philosophy isn't the field with the most prospects... but I thought I was the kind of person who makes the cut. But today I was just rejected from my last real hope of grad school.

With an undergraduate research grant in philosophy, excellent letters of recommendation (from ppl with degrees from Moscow - the person I worked on my grant with, Princeton - my advisor, and duke - who I’ve had class with, and she has some special position in our foreign language department), and extracurriculars like some involvement with scholars forum, philosophy club, and VP of my fraternity... I thought I'd atleast get in, even if I didn't get money.

So now I have student loans which wont be deferred, a philosophy degree which wont help me much in getting a job, and I don't know what to do. I'm kind of in shock, I thought the real world was a little further away... that I had several more years of school ahead of me which would have made be competitive for a job that I'd be interested in.

I can't be one of those students who goes home for a few years after college b/c while in college my 'rents got divorced, and my mother is currently in the process of moving. And I'm not "out" to my father, but I don't think that would go over well... so going home isn't an option. (but I'm more worried about finances than having a place to stay)

My dog just died, my last remain grandparent is dying, I've got all these loans built up with no reasonable job prospects, and I'm freaking out a little.

[Edited on March 8, 2006 at 3:34 PM. Reason : .]

3/8/2006 3:27:13 PM

it could be a good time for a change in career plans: if you're at all interested in science you could take a year off and get an intro job in a lab in RTP.

with good grades and GRE scores from undergrad combined with some some work experience, you would be pretty much guaranteed to get into some science grad school, fully paid. my tox professor was a history undergrad, so it's definitely possible.

3/8/2006 3:33:55 PM

I'm just here to emphathize. I've still got 2 schools to hear from, but my best prospects are shot, and even if I do get into those schools I'm not sure I'll be able to get a job as a professor afterwards since the market is flooded with english phds.

My plan is get a real estate license as quickly as possible. If I can't read books for the rest of my life I might as well try to make some damn money. I'm hoping my spanish degree will help me find a job, since the english degree probably won't.

3/8/2006 3:37:19 PM

how many grad schools did you apply to? did you not have a pretty close to 100% getting in fall back?

3/8/2006 3:44:00 PM

I know some programs reccomend doing post bach work to enchance your application. But a year of post bach and then applying again would have me at 24... then getting a Phd would have me spending alot of years on education. And I'm not sure how serious I can consider post bach work, if undergrad didn't aptly qualify me for grad school. I'd be in an even worse position if I went into post bach and then didn't get into grad school again.

Philosophy, ancient history, english, mythology, and things like that are what I'm interested in. I had some ancient greek language, but 4 years wasnt enough to also get into latin too. But more language stuff might enchance me in applying to grad school again. I've also had 4 high school spanish classes and 3 in college, but I'm not fluent.

But if I failed to get into grad school once, I'm not sure its worth a shot... ^^and if I can't get into grad school in the field I was interested in, I don't think I'm really interested in trying unrelated fields.

I fully expected that I'd get into grad school, now I feel like I failed at life. I feel like my under grad degree will be rather meaningless if its not enough to get me into grad school, or to get me a job in the field. Probably not going to the graduation ceremonies now.

3/8/2006 3:53:59 PM

I did apply to a back up school, but since every other school has flat out rejected me when I expected to atleast get in without alot of financial aid, I don't think my chances are good. Especially since they haven't got back to me yet (with late responses being consistently bad signs), and its such a bad school, I wouldn’t be that interested in going there even if I do get in. But at this point, I don’t think getting in is a real hope.

3/8/2006 3:57:54 PM

what was your GPA

3/8/2006 4:26:47 PM

I thought also having taking relevant classes at UNC interinstitutionally would make me look better on my application (atleast for my unc application anyways)

3/8/2006 4:39:08 PM

overall: 3.142
major: 3.444

But they may have been a little higher before the fall grades were included in.... which is what the grad schools saw since I finished my applications early in Nov.

3/8/2006 4:41:47 PM

well i dont know it sounds like you had a pretty good application..now im scared

3/8/2006 4:50:48 PM

I wouldn't give up. Maybe you just need to take a couple of years to rough it and then give it another try

3/8/2006 5:11:26 PM

Kind of regretting spend a couple hundred on applications and having transcripts sent, now that I'm going to have lots of loans bearing down on me.

3/8/2006 5:11:51 PM

I've also developed a nervous twitchy jolting thing when ever any new stress is introduced, since the rejections have started pouring in. I've never had anything like this before. A phone ringing, bright lights, lots of things are setting it off... I really hope this new beauty of a habit doesn't last past spring break (which I didn't do anything for b/c I saved it open for touring grad schools)

[Edited on March 8, 2006 at 5:22 PM. Reason : .]

3/8/2006 5:21:40 PM

Quote :

" a philosophy degree which wont help me much in getting a job"

not true- have a friend that has one and makes 75k a year as an IT professional- you aren't bound to philosophy for life

3/8/2006 5:30:33 PM

^But I also didn't train in a sci/tech field, and am not equipped to do a job like that. And I certainly can't afford to start over on school and try again in a better field. And making 75 k a year with a philosophy degree seems like the exception not the rule.

I've heard some about a career center at ncsu? Where is that, are they actually helpful? I can't believe I'm thinking about career option rather than just another job while doing school.

[Edited on March 8, 2006 at 5:44 PM. Reason : .]

3/8/2006 5:43:18 PM

take a year off, work a local job, and re-apply to different grad schools next year.

3/8/2006 6:38:47 PM

My application wouldn't be any stronger with a year of unrelated work, it might actually be weaker because I would no longer be involved at all in extracurriculars like scholars forum, philosophy club, or being VP of my fraternity.

And applying to grad schools costs hundreds. Theres the money to have gre test scores sent, money to send transcripts from every school you've attended (which can be alot if you've taken advantage of ncsu's interinstitution stuff), and the application fees themself can be up to about $70 each. And each school requires you to send copies to their grad school admissions ppl, and to specific department. Thats 16 transcripts to apply to 4 colleges.

I think If I couldn't make it into all the ones I applied to this time, that its a pretty good bet that I'm not cut out for grad school (although with my qualifications, I don't know else would be for philosophy).

I feel kind of cheated spending hundreds on this, only to get no where and now having loans bearing down on me... I don't think I can handle that process again.

3/8/2006 6:48:44 PM

I thought that 3.5 was standard GPA for any grad school applicant.


And I'm pretty much in the exact opposite situation as you

[Edited on March 8, 2006 at 7:13 PM. Reason : kl;k]

3/8/2006 7:11:28 PM

One way to buy some time on the loans would be to enroll in some vocational 2-year program. I think if you were still a full-time student then you wouldn't have to start paying the loans back for another 2 years. This summer it would be wise to consolidate the loans and lock them into some rate now (they're likely to go up more from where they are now ).

Community colleges are cheap, and it'd buy you some time.

Maybe, this advice is completely irrelevant to you, just thinking...

3/8/2006 7:18:46 PM

AmeriCorps
Peace Corps
Teach for America

You get loan deferment for some AmeriCorps positions, for all Peace Corps postings, and I don't know about TFA. Also, you do get some loans forgiven. AmeriCorps - some positions will let you have an outside job, and some won't. The ones that don't almost always offer a living stipend, and even some of the ones that let you work do the same. Peace Corps will pay for the cost of living commensurate with where you're serving. You're not going to be getting 40K in allowances if you're serving in, say, Sudan, but if you're serving in Eastern Europe, you'd get more than somewhere like Sudan

3/8/2006 7:21:18 PM

I only took out subsidized loans (but alot of them)^^

[Edited on March 8, 2006 at 7:30 PM. Reason : .]

3/8/2006 7:26:34 PM

sucks for you

i got in with a 3.2 gpa overall 3.4 major, few extracurriculars, really good letters of rec., and a high GRE

got a full assistantship with tuition waver for ag economics. i suppose the interview went really well?

i got into mississippi state, nc state, tennessee - no programs rejected me. maybe you just have bad luck?

3/8/2006 7:42:52 PM

^...DICK!

3/8/2006 7:50:25 PM

^^ the two fields (Philosophy and Ag Econ) might be looking for different things. Also, the schools for which you applied versus the ones he applied to might be a) looking for different things and b) might have different capacities. Phd programs are VERY tricky and picky when it comes to picking the class.

At American, we picked 10 out of about 120 applications each year. We picked 10, held 5 in reserve on the wait list.

3/8/2006 8:27:27 PM

Well, there's always gay porn.

Maybe you're on a reserve list somewhere. I hear they always need teachers.

3/8/2006 9:04:58 PM

Does anyone know of any on campus jobs at UNC? It seems like NCSU has a website somewhere of jobs… I was wondering if NCSU has anything comparable. I know a friend who works at Ticket Central for NCSU can take classes on the cheap there. Maybe if I could get some low level staff position at UNC I could work for a while, and take a class every so often, and if I still want to, try again at grad school in a few years with a beefed up resume. Anyone know anything about UNC on campus jobs?

3/8/2006 9:36:11 PM

I wouldn't give up all hope...I know it's comparing apples to oranges but a lot of the people at my grad school interviews in the biomedical sciences have taken time off after school. A lot have done field applicable things (like lab techs), but my roommate last weekend had just done customer support (no tech experience/training required) for Google for two years, and it definately didn't hurt in terms of what schools she got in to.

Hang in there. Perhaps a couple years off will give you some perspective, some time to polish the 'is this really what I want to do" angle, and so forth. I do feel for you - you're living the nightmare that kept me sleepless and near tears over Christmas break.

3/9/2006 12:21:37 AM

I work in the Career Center, and we would be happy to help. We have counselors specifically for CHASS students that can direct you to resources for job listings and leads in the areas you find interesting.

Also, they can help talk you through what you want to do with your life... which is probably where they would start, then get into specific resources. I'm pasting a link to our staff directory, where you can email the appropriate counselor to set up an appointment or call our office to set something up.

http://www.ncsu.edu/career/aboutUs/directory.htm

3/9/2006 9:44:20 AM

I believe your earlier post regarding languages is an alternative worth considering. Perhaps one option would be to spend a year working on one or two languages (perhaps Arabic or Chinese and/or developing Latin and/or refining your Greek).

This might:

1. Open up an alternate career path in translation in which a liberal arts background might be useful from the perspective of analysis.

2. If you have an interest in non-Western philosophy, those language skills might well help aid any subsequent application to graduate programmes (er, programs) that might specialize in such. And the stronger your Latin/Greek, the better your research skills in Western phliosophy and Law.

So if you have an interest and talent in languages, this approach might be a way both to keep your options open in philosophy but also develop a pragmatic skill set as part of your resume.

[Edited on March 9, 2006 at 9:48 AM. Reason : ..]

3/9/2006 9:46:11 AM

^ and ^^ great advice.

I would think there is much you could do with your degree in working for a year - three years and then reapply to grad school.

3/9/2006 12:35:24 PM

^^^ I wonder why the career center does not have a counselor life science degree holders... could it be because there are 10s of 1000s of life science jobs for the taking?

3/9/2006 1:55:39 PM

^? I don't understand what you are asking for. Do you mean a career counselor for the life sciences?

3/9/2006 3:34:26 PM

I forgot to put the world 'for' in between the words 'counselor' and 'life'.

3/9/2006 3:56:10 PM

I was in a similar situation back in '97. Applied to 4 schools, got interviews at WashU and Duke, then fucked them both up. I worked at a lab at UNC for a couple years, realized that the life sciences is a pyramid and very few make it to the top. I switched gears and studied computer science, eventually I got a MCS from State. Now I work as a bioinformatics programmer. Even though I could probably get into a decent program, I know I will never get a PhD. As you get older, the "opportunity costs" become too high. I don't want to make $30k when I'm 38. That's life.

I'm sure Philosophy is an even steeper pyramid. Only you know what you are capable of but let's face it - you went to NCSU and got a 3.1. You were up against kids from better schools with higher GPAs. After grad school it would only get harder. Take it as a blessing.

The important thing for you now is not to fall into a clinical depression. If you feel yourself slipping you should see a doctor and get some meds to carry you through this dark period. I wish I had done that at the time.

Start temping and see what you enjoy doing. Opportunities for success in industry are always much higher than in academia. Good luck and never look back.

3/9/2006 3:56:24 PM

Quote :

".I ... realized that the life sciences is a pyramid and very few make it to the top"

I agree with that, but you have to put a lot of effort in making it to the top of anything. I am satisfied with being in the life sciences, and I am sure that I will make near the top, because I am going to put forth the effort, and I have the attitude that "I am going to make it there".

3/9/2006 4:01:14 PM

I'm going to wait for the one back up school to get back to me, but since all my other schools fell through, I don’t have any misconceptions about getting in with enough money to go there. And I'm not sure I'd want to go if I did get in.

What I'm thinking at this point is get speak to a career counselor and then see about getting a job in Chapel Hill. Maybe work for a year or two and take an occasional class so that I’ll have the option of applying again stronger to grad schools if that’s still something I want to do at that point.

It still sucks hard that I put all this money, effort, and hope into going to grad school and it didn’t work out… but I guess I have to move on.

If anyone has advice on where or how to find jobs in Chapel Hill let me know. Especially on campus jobs, but any info on jobs would be fine. (it'd be really hot if i could get a intro lvl staff position at unc that would allow me to also take courses on the cheap) I preferably don’t want to flip burgers with a college degree, especially with the loans I need to pay off… but I also don’t have really high expectations.

I’ve only really had 2 jobs before… working in a vet clinic during high school (which I don’t really want to do any more), and working an on campus receptionist type job during college which wasn’t so bad. Only this, my senior year, did money ever get really tight, but I made ends meet with the philosophy research grant. That’s still not a lot of work experience, so I don’t really know what I’m in for.

General job application advice, or specific chapel hill advice is appreciated

3/9/2006 4:06:02 PM

also theres this thread
http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=392935
if you have any reccomendations on chapel hill apartments

3/9/2006 4:07:50 PM

There are career counselors for the life sciences.
http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/career/site/public/index.cfm?pageID=148. The College of Ag and Life Sciences was the first college at NC State and as such it has always had things before the rest of the entire university had them.

Students in CALS have an entire career center just for students in their majors. There are many good things that come from both the university career center and the office devoted to life sciences careers. Use them both. You will be glad you did.

Here is the main CALS Career webpage and they are located in 111 Patterson Hall
http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/career/site/public/index.cfm?pageID=147

3/9/2006 4:16:08 PM

Honestly, it seems to me your gpa is a bit on the low side for admission into a humanities grad program. I'm in a science grad program so maybe I'm wrong about this.

In anycase, you could try and get into a philosophy MA program (like Tufts) and then reapply to a Phd program afterwords. My senior roommate was in your position but applied and entered a U Chicago classics MA program. After completion of this he got into one of the top Phd departments in the country. The downside is that he took a large amount of debt on to pay for the Chicago MA program. I generally believe one should not pay for a graduate education.

3/9/2006 4:16:11 PM

check your pm

3/9/2006 4:28:26 PM

^^ That is Jennie Lamonte's philosophy as well- get the grad school paid for. She is in charge of Fellowship Advising. fellowships@ncsu.edu. Ricks 204

3/9/2006 4:37:26 PM

^^^ Maybe it was too low. After my freshman fall semester I had a gpa of around 2 and some serious health issues going on. I never fully recovered from that gpa wise, but I figured if I worked hard enough for 4 years, and gave up summer vacations to take courses to bring my gpa up (and deal with catching up after a major switch) that I would be able to make it to grad school. And when I applied I think I had around a 3.5 major gpa and a over all gpa that was above a 3. I thought with all the other stuff that would be enough.

Maybe I'm just not good enough to make the cut. Either way I hope my final school letter comes in soon so I can start moving on.

^^Ty for the info

[Edited on March 9, 2006 at 5:06 PM. Reason : .]

3/9/2006 5:05:56 PM

True, there might be some very high GPAs out there, but at a 3.1 you might still be in contention if the overall trend improved, you finished strong. I don't think you will know what it was until you talk to them. Don't guess at the reason you didn't get accepted and don't give up for the future.

3/9/2006 5:08:21 PM

Unless you don’t mind teaching at a community college, this was a blessing in disguise. (Actually, most community college lecturers hold several jobs because the pay is so bad.) Face it, wherever you get a humanities graduate degree from, you’ll end up teaching at a school that is one or two tiers below it.

PhD from UNC --> Teaching at App. State
PhD from NCSU --> Teaching at Wake Tech (& second job)
PhD from App. State --> Unemployable in that field

It sucks, but it’s true.

If you really love this stuff, then why not make a hobby about it?

Actually, your philosophy degree is a decent degree in that it gets you think. You can use those thinking skills in just about any field: law, computer science, business, whatever. You could easily take some courses and go into computer science or another technical field. You don’t need a formal degree in computer science or whatever to get a job in that field.

You’re freaking out because you can’t fathom a career beyond school. Trust me, you’re fine. You could have made some better choices, but you got a degree and that’s the important thing. Your degree may limit what industries what you will work in, but what you achieve is up to you.

3/9/2006 5:51:19 PM

^I've thought about teaching for a long time. My mother is a special education teacher, and I've fancied the idea of being a 2nd generation teacher (as a professor) for a good while now. But philosophy doesn't really seem like the sort of thing you can do as a hobby, the same way you can say with astronomy and a telescope.

I've always heard that about different tier schools. You need to step up from undergrad to grad, and then when it comes time to teach, you will probably end up teaching at the same tier as your undergrad. That’s part of the reason while investing time and effort into my back up school even if I get in doesn't seem all that appealing.

Law seems to require advance training, as does computer science (I can handle the internet and tdub, but I know nothing about programming, and I don't really have time for more classes/learning new skill sets before the loans start bearing down), and business also seems to require more academic training/work experience than I've got to get into it.


[Edited on March 9, 2006 at 6:04 PM. Reason : .]

3/9/2006 6:03:50 PM

Quote :

"AmeriCorps Peace Corps Teach for America"

Would really be a great way to put your life and loans on hold, and learn more about yourself and what you want to do with your future. A guy at work's daughter did AmeriCorps, and he had nothing but great things to say about it. And it would look way better on any potential new application than flipping burgers or waiting tables to make ends meet while choosing a path.

3/9/2006 6:11:53 PM

It would make an application look better.... but I feel like I'm past the finding myself/learning who I am stage. And if grad school isn't something thats going to ultimately pan out, then I don't want to put my debt on hold, I want to start dealing with it.

I believe teach for america for NC places people in Charlotte & somewhere in east NC like goldsboro... I will probably be living in chapel hill (or maybe still in raleigh). I've looked at options like this before, and done as much exploring as the internet allows. I hope the career center has some fresh ideas for me.

3/9/2006 6:18:46 PM

I had a 4.0 in both my majors with a 3.95 overall and got rejected from 5/6 grad schools so far... every single one I've heard from. I'm applying to phd english programs and I got 96th percentile on the verbal of the GRE. I have no idea what the fuck happened.

But then again, a 4.0 at state in english isn't exactly difficult.

3/9/2006 7:04:12 PM

I know quite a few people that had GPAs less the 3.0, and got into grad school, and most of them got into good schools. All of them were science degree holders, and I do not know if that has anything to do with them getting in or what. Also, most of them had a LOT of real world, industry experience, i.e. they worked 3-5 years after undergrad, then went to grad school.

3/9/2006 7:24:28 PM

Keynes, I love youi but you need to come off your high horse sometimes- and I can say that because I ride horses. We have plenty of PhDs from Carolina teaching here and we have plenty of our own PhD students working and teaching at quality institutions.

3/9/2006 7:56:04 PM