This is something I've been wondering a lot recently. Are sports car enthusiasts better off now or say, 10 years ago? Sure horsepower levels are way up, but so is vehicle weight. Not to mention a lot of the cars you see these days have questionable styling. Plus modern cars are such a bitch to work on with their fancy electronics and whatnot that you have to wonder if things are better.

Thoughts, opinions?

10/12/2007 1:49:44 PM

hmmm. im 24, 10 years ago i just started working at my cousins body shop.

i was into cars (going to drag races and stuff)... but didnt have my own car.

so i cant really comment. neither can most people in here.

all i remember was 10 years ago i like the cars much better. raw horsepower. not forced induction.

a test of true skill and mechaniks.

10/12/2007 1:59:09 PM

a lot of sports car enthusiasts that buy these 'nice' cars don't care too much about working on them. They don't really care how hard or complex it is to work on. They care more about having the fancy electronics and all the comforts then having to work on a simplified machine.

As for the cars we normal folk can afford...they really haven't changed all that much.

[Edited on October 12, 2007 at 2:00 PM. Reason : fda]

10/12/2007 2:00:06 PM

i was going to edit and say that.

niggers are lazy. like ^ said

Quote :

"Plus modern cars are such a bitch to work on with their fancy electronics and whatnot that you have to wonder if things are better"

a lot more dealers are supplying their own aftermarket parts because of the way they make their cars look impossible to work on. back in the day i remember honda would install superchargers from the factory for like $1000 more than you could do it yourself, or somewhere else, but i think it was still under warranty with them. also nowadays its all cosmetic (mainly because of what the engine bay looks like).

[Edited on October 12, 2007 at 2:06 PM. Reason : ]

10/12/2007 2:00:50 PM

I'm going to go ahead and say that working on cars sucks. If I were Richie Rich I'd probably never pick up a wrench again.


This is by no means comprehensive, but here are a few thoughts...
10 years ago...1997.
Roadsters were pretty much limited to low power Miatas and the new Z3 which finally got a I-6 in 97. Now we have the Z4, M Roadster, S2000, Elise, Boxster, etc.

The e36 M3 was probably the hottest luxury sports car on the market. The M3 sedan was the fastest sedan made. The e46 version has almost 100 more HP and it gets strong competition from Audi, Mercedes, and others.

AWD sports cars were the stuff of legend (and DSM :sick. Now we've got Evos, STis, S4s, etc.

Corvettes were finally seeing some real changes since 1984 with the advent of the C5, but they still were nothing like the C6 car that is available today.

I think we're better off today. It's nice to be able to walk into a dealership and finance 300 horsepower with a 50k warranty. And we've got a whole slew of E30s, e36 M3s, F-Bodies, etc. available dirt cheap for those who want to do some real tuning.

[Edited on October 12, 2007 at 2:26 PM. Reason : s]

10/12/2007 2:22:49 PM

Quote :

"AWD was the stuff of legend. Now we've got Evos, STis, S4s, etc. "

we've had Evo's and such for a long time. The US just started importing them back in 03.

10/12/2007 2:25:48 PM

We don't all live in Mesopotamia Golovko.

10/12/2007 2:27:15 PM

Quote :

"i remember honda would install superchargers from the factory"

You remember wrong. This never happened.

Toyota still installs TRD superchargers for certain cars.

10/12/2007 2:32:27 PM

lol.. my newest car is almost 10 years old ('98), has forced induction and "fancy electronics"..

my project is almost 25 years old

[Edited on October 12, 2007 at 3:04 PM. Reason : one of the biggest issues facing "tuners", imho, is obd2 emissions controls]

10/12/2007 3:03:51 PM

^^naw nigga i swear i remember.... like 6-7 years ago, honda would install a jackson racing supercharger on the civic SI's.

if i remember correctly, it wasnt something that was "optioned" but they could install it for you. or something like that.



[Edited on October 12, 2007 at 4:50 PM. Reason : ]

10/12/2007 4:42:31 PM

the transfer of car info these days is like a billion times more than ten years ago. therefore we know a lot more about whats out there and how to work on them. today wins imo.

10/12/2007 6:16:40 PM

Quote :

"We don't all live in Mesopotamia Golovko. "

could have fooled me.

10/12/2007 6:27:06 PM

us with handicapped engines need that forced induction

some engines just aren't meant to run 10:1 and 8000rpm making all-motor POWR

10/12/2007 6:43:05 PM

safety aside, cars now are almost the same as they were 10 years ago.

discrepancy between '07 and '97 is far less distinguishable than difference between '97 and '87

better question is are we better off than we were 20 years ago?

10/12/2007 7:26:52 PM

I enjoy the 80-90's Jap GT's.

I had an N/A Mark 3 Supra that I restored and sold and currently have a first-generation 3000GT VR4 that I'm trying to build for the track (working on getting TD-04 housings to mate with my new 15G's). At times this car is a complete pain to work on, with all the extra features mitsu threw in it makes diagnosing problems more difficult than it should.

For the newer cars, all of these electronic "assists" and "controls" ... me no like dealing with.

10/12/2007 7:29:20 PM

Quote :

"The M3 sedan was the fastest sedan made"

GTFO of here. Without even thinking hard (I'm drunk) i can think of the Porsche buillt E500 (circa 1992) that was faster than the E36 M3. And I have no doubt there were others that I haven't thought of that were faster.

10/13/2007 12:38:50 AM

I find owning classic land rovers to be much easier and rewarding to work on than the newer stuff. No OBDII or electronics to go bad. No plastic bumpers either.

10/13/2007 12:52:01 AM

Quote :

" The e36 M3 was probably the hottest luxury sports car on the market. The M3 sedan was the fastest sedan made. The e46 version has almost 100 more HP and it gets strong competition from Audi, Mercedes, and others."

Yeah, I love bmw and the e36m3, but you're gonna lose that argument.

10/13/2007 5:55:27 AM

Quote :

"GTFO of here. Without even thinking hard (I'm drunk) i can think of the Porsche buillt E500 (circa 1992) that was faster than the E36 M3. And I have no doubt there were others that I haven't thought of that were faster."

Quote :

"Yeah, I love bmw and the e36m3, but you're gonna lose that argument."

I didn't say fastest sedan ever. An issue of Road & Track circa 1997 or 1998 hailed it as the fastest production sedan built that year.

10/13/2007 7:47:22 AM

my cars a 1998. almost 10 years old.
ive gotta say it does hold its own. even 10 years down the line.

honda

10/13/2007 9:10:31 AM

my 99 civic idles so low that sometimes I have to second guess if the engine is even running, and it was designed over 10 years ago

Honestly I would not buy a NEW compact car, I mean why? My next car will likely be a Miata from the mid 90s just for a track/ autoX car- or some other little $5k or less car.

10/13/2007 10:01:41 AM

older cars are much easier to work on.

like everyone has been saying.. obd2 has messed quite a few things up for tuners

10/13/2007 11:47:22 AM

I think we have it much better these days. Sure, modern cars are heavier in general and harder to work on - but you can always buy a 10 year old car! Plus there are a lot more companies turning out parts nowadays (although some of the companies arn't quality). Plus there is more knowledge out there especially about imported cars since they have grown so much in popularity since the mid-90s.

Basically, get a 10 year old car and its easy to work on and make it perform okay. Get a new car and a lot of money and it can perform just as good if not better.

10/13/2007 2:02:10 PM

Can someone please tell me why gas mileage hasn't improved at all in the last 15-20 years. CRXs and Civics back then could approach 50mpg, and nowadays we need fancy hybrids to get to that point. Whats the deal?

I think for enthusiasts its gone downhill since the late 90s. Subaru is trying to make the WRX more "mainstream". The new WRX STi looks like a hopped up Focus. The new Evo is a fat pig. The SRT4 is now no longer a light Neon sedan, its a 400lb heavier quasi-SUV that is significantly slower than before, despite having a lot more power.

There are exceptions like the 350Z and Corvette, but they're in the minority.

10/13/2007 3:29:17 PM

did you just get verizon or something, cause you got too much time on your hands.

10/13/2007 3:41:20 PM

^^ gas mileage isn't better because cars are heavier and have more power.


and the 350Z is lame.

10/13/2007 4:16:38 PM

today's Corvette is light years ahead of the C4 of yesterday. the Evo VIII/IX and STi (and WRX, for that matter) are great additions that weren't available in the U.S. 10-15 years ago (and offer a level of performance never before seen at their price point). The Elise/Exige are groundbreaking cars that I never thought we'd see anything like in America, especially starting at $40k. The supercharged Solstice is a helluva lot of bang for the buck. I have big hopes for the BMW 1-series. Never driven an RX-8, but it seems like an impressive car (though certainly not a balls out sports car).

back in the day, we had the Supra, 300ZX, and 3000GT-VR4. All 3 were insanely fat pigs, although they had good power potential (especially the Supra). The RX-7 (FD chassis) was awesome, but I've never seen one that didn't break all the time. DSMs were (and still are) great bang for the buck.

the S2000 is a great car that kinda bridges the generation gap you're comparing, but it's going away.

The Miata has grown and become a lot more expensive. Thumbs down. MR-2 Spyder is cool, but not as cool as the old MR2 Turbo. BMWs are still awesome, but they're getting way too big and heavy.


all in all, I think we're better off today. There is something fun at almost every price point, and some really serious performance available for an attainable price. We seem to be finally trending away from FWD at least a little (which is an abomination that does not belong on anything but econoboxes and stuff). The trend towards bigger and heavier is something I really hate, though. It's already ruined a number of good cars, and it's only getting worse.

Quote :

"And we've got a whole slew of E30s, e36 M3s, F-Bodies, etc. available dirt cheap"

E36 M3s are not dirt cheap. Those things go for ridiculous prices due to their cult following. I'd love to have one, but I'm not paying $12-16k for a 10-13 year old E36 with 6 figures on the odometer.

but yeah, you can get an S2000, Z3 2.8, Boxster, or C5 Vette for mid-teens...an NB Miata for $7-8k, give or take...an LS1 Camaro for cheap, etc. 10-15 years ago, there wasn't a lot to choose from in the 5-10 year old used market. That's the other part of why I say we're better off now--we can enjoy those great cars from that period for cheap, and there's another decent crop of new stuff coming out now.

10/13/2007 4:40:25 PM

I like how things are, there's other stuff avail. too, like the 944 turbo. Mid/late 90s cars are very easy to work on, parts are easy to find and cheapish. You want to spend money on something new, you've got options, 2-5 years old, you've got options, likewise for 10ish year old cars. If this was the 80s (or even the 90s), there wouldn't be much to pick from.

I keep bouncing between Evo, 996 and more junk on the current e36. Then there's the e30 idea. I would not have any of what I've got available to me, except for the e30 (and maybe the e36, but it'd be pushing it due to high price) 10 years ago... I feel it's only a matter of time before I gravitate towards a 996 though.
Ahmet

10/13/2007 4:54:28 PM

I think resale on the e36 M3 has dropped sharply. I bought mine for around $7 needing some work. I have maybe 9 in it. If somebody gave me $12 for it today, I'd go grab a newer 911 the same day. Unfortunately (for me) since there's the WRX/EVO, etc. at similar price point, the e36 M3's resale has suffered. Or am I wrong?

PS: My car has 203k miles, gets tracked heavily, but I hate that I'm having to replace bushings/balljoints, control arms, wheel bearings etc.
Ahmet

10/13/2007 4:57:43 PM

The Evo is phenomenal, but there's no way I'd prefer it above a 996 (although looks-wise, I prefer the 993).

Maybe the Evo would be more fun strictly as a toy (especially with standard bolt-on mods), and it works well as a daily driver, but a 996 would just be way cooler, all around.

If I were you, I'd ditch that M3 before you end up losing a shit ton of money for a new engine/transmission, or end up selling it for a huge loss with drivetrain problems.

then the question becomes whether or not you want an Evo or Porsche as an all-around awesome car for daily driving and track duty, or whether you want a nice daily driver (say, 3-series or something) and a dedicated track mule (take your pick, all kinds of ways to do it). You could do it this way for a lot less money, I think.

That's part of why I think I've finally decided to sell my Evo with minimal regrets.

10/13/2007 5:30:53 PM

I honestly don't see the M3 needing anything major anytime soon. Leakdown is factory spec, doesn't use or leak any fluids, tranny shifts smooth, etc. Just needing some balljoints/wheelbearings/bushings, etc. I have several track events scheduled back to back coming up soon. If it wasn't for that, I'd probably sell it. Currently I don't have anything I can track if I sold the M3, and besides the running costs on the M3 aren't horrible. It's no e30, but it's certainly cheaper than a 911. Besides, a tracked 911 will need things like bushings eventually as well, I'd hate to start over after I spend another $15k upgrading my car.
Ahmet

10/13/2007 8:52:57 PM

^Why in God's name would you want a 996 over a 993?

10/13/2007 9:03:24 PM

I'm thinking about finding a cheap Miata (preferably one with the suspension already done) and slapping a roll bar and some gumball tires on it, then tracking the shit out of it. To be perfectly honest, I think i'm a good driver, but on the track, I think I'd progress faster initially with something low-powered like a Miata.

I might just get out of the sports car business until I get back to NC. i've been pulled over 9 times in 3.5 months here, it rains every day in the winter, and it doesn't look like I have a lot of good options for tracks up here...then I'll prob just run something cheap (like the aforementioned Miata) until I get back from my first deployment. I'll sell the car when I ship out, then save up mad money while I'm deployed and hopefully buy an Elise (or maybe another Evo, or maybe some sort of Porsche, or maybe build another super fast Miata or S2000...but probably an Elise) when I get back.

10/13/2007 9:04:26 PM

When I get back to Raleigh I too will be looking for a track bitch. Can't wait!

10/13/2007 11:15:48 PM

bttt

cause we dont all live in mesopotamia

10/13/2007 11:32:19 PM

Quote :

"^^ gas mileage isn't better because cars are heavier and have more power."

more safety features, more electronics and all that.

10/14/2007 12:09:13 AM

^I'm well aware of all that. But do you seriously mean to tell me that in the last 15 yrs engine technology hasn't advanced to progress fuel economy to at least meet the levels of the past.

10/14/2007 3:41:05 AM

Why do I like the 996 better? Because I think it's a better car. Looks are subjective, but purely from a handling, performance, reliability, etc. perspective, I believe the 996 is the better car. It certainly has a better chasis/suspension set up. Add in that the 996 has depreciated a lot more than the 993, and it becomes my clear choice of 911 in the current price point. If I could afford it, I'd like a gt3 (996).
Ahmet

10/14/2007 3:43:55 PM

Seems like the compelling argument for things being better off for us these days is mostly b/c of the abundance of fantastic used cars on the market. I totally agree, but for the purpose of this thread I was referring only to new cars.

But whatever

10/16/2007 1:32:45 PM

Quote :

"Quote : "i remember honda would install superchargers from the factory" You remember wrong. This never happened. Toyota still installs TRD superchargers for certain cars."

I've most certainly read of this shit from certain dealerships with comptech parts.

Whenever i probe deeper, i get limited responses.

So yes you could be right, but its a bold statement.

10/16/2007 7:12:45 PM

funny that no one mentions e46 m3. when e92 m3 comes out in spring of '08, e46 m3 will come down considerably as well. despite the weight, i think it's an excellent car for those of you looking to upgrade from older cars.

10/16/2007 7:42:32 PM

^true, but they're more costly to maintain and are a little on the hefty side.

10/16/2007 7:55:58 PM