http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5864151.html

Quote :

"The grand jury heard two weeks of testimony from witnesses, including Horn. They likely also heard his breathless 911 call, during which the increasingly frustrated retiree ignored a dispatcher's pleas to stay inside and out of harm's way. The Nov. 14 call ended with the sound of Horn racking a shell into his 12-gauge shotgun's chamber followed by three gunshots that killed Colombians Diego Ortiz, 30, and Hernando Riascos Torres, 38. ... District Attorney Ken Magidson said he couldn't comment on the grand jury's secret proceedings. "In Texas, a person has a right to use deadly force in certain circumstances to protect property ... and that's basically what the grand jurors had to deal with," Magidson said. ... Frank Ortiz, a member of the local League of United Latin American Citizens chapter, said he hopes federal authorities investigate the case further. "That's amazing that they would no-bill him with so much evidence against him," Ortiz said. "It's amazing to me that anyone with a Hispanic surname cannot get justice. This was no more than a vigilante." In his 911 call, Horn cited a newly enacted Texas law, the "castle doctrine," which authorizes the use of deadly force during a home invasion. But Sen. Jeff Wentworth, who wrote the law, said it did not apply to Horn's case. "It was not an issue in this case other than him saying incorrectly that he understood it to mean he could protect his neighbor's property," said Wentworth, R-San Antonio. He said the castle doctrine simply didn't apply because, although the burglars were running across Horn's lawn, Horn's home wasn't under siege — his neighbor's home was. "It comes from the saying 'A man's home is his castle,' " Wentworth said. "But this wasn't his castle." ... "I just praise God that he was not indicted, that our country is still behind our good, honest people," said Velma Cabello, 61. "He is a hero in my book." She lives in Humble, but was house-sitting Monday a few doors down from Horn's home. "I would love for him to be my neighbor, for someone to watch over me like that," Cabello said. "I'm glad he's not going to jail, but it's a bad thing, killing a couple people," said John White, 51, who lives half a block away from Horn. "It's sad for everyone, him and the victims." ... Pasadena police have said a detective in plainclothes had parked in front of Horn's house in response to the 911 call, and saw the two men before they crossed into Horn's front yard. Police believe that neither Horn nor the burglars knew an officer was present. When Horn confronted the men in his yard, he raised his shotgun to his shoulder, police have said. However, the men ignored his order to freeze. Authorities have said one man ran toward Horn but had angled away toward the street when he was shot in the back just before reaching the curb. "

I wonder at what point the cries of racism will start working against someone's case, when those cries will be viewed as an attempt at slandering a defendant?

So what do you think? Was justice served? A vigilante murderer or a citizen doing his part to keep his part to keep his neighborhood clean and safe and faced with an unfortunate choice?

[Edited on July 1, 2008 at 9:25 AM. Reason : x]

7/1/2008 9:22:57 AM

Quote :

"that our country is still behind our good, honest people,"

Sums it up best. Horn did nothing wrong.

7/1/2008 9:26:15 AM

TOUCHDOWN FOR JUSTICE

7/1/2008 9:34:41 AM

THe guys breaking in were armed right?

7/1/2008 9:34:45 AM

When the story first broke way back, it was reported that one of them (I think the one that advanced on Horn) had a crowbar, but I haven't seen anything on it in the recent reports.

7/1/2008 9:39:25 AM

TOUCHDOWN FOR JUSTICE

7/1/2008 9:43:01 AM

The guy shot 2 men in the back when they were breaking into his neighbors property.


Since when is it okay to murder a thief, especially when they don't appear to be armed or dangerous? I know some of you have common sense.


And what if they had been young white teenagers? I think we would have seen a different outcome in that situation.

7/1/2008 9:59:41 AM

Why does the race matter monky? Seems to me these guys knew they were doing something wrong and faced the consequences. If more people did this, then there would obviously be less criminals and less people breaking into houses for the fear of dying.. instead of spending a couple hours in jail.. then off to try another house tommorrow.

Since when is okay to take something that isnt yours?

7/1/2008 10:06:36 AM

Quote :

"Since when is it okay to murder a thief, especially when they don't appear to be armed or dangerous? I know some of you have common sense. "

If more thieves were killed or injured in their line of work, we would have less thieves.

Further, I consider anyone who charges a man armed with a shotgun as armed and dangerous, or at the very least, stupid and dangerous which is almost as bad.

Quote :

"And what if they had been young white teenagers? I think we would have seen a different outcome in that situation."

I would hope not, but you're probably right, there would be much more outcry over young lives lost, and there would be no cries of racism.

7/1/2008 10:10:38 AM

Quote :

"Since when is okay to take something that isnt yours? "

Including a life?

7/1/2008 10:15:55 AM

I am not condoning thievery in the least, it is a crime and people should be punished accordingly.

However, allowing a citizen the right to execute another citizen (or non-citizen) should not be legal - the government cannot do it except for in extreme cases. And make no mistake, this man shot these guys in the back from long range. This was an execution, he was not defending anything.

Quote :

" Including a life?"

You said it before I could.

7/1/2008 10:19:21 AM

O&A played the 911 call this morning and commented on it. What I do not understand is if a plainclothes officer was across the street, why didn't the dispatcher inform him of this? He knew Joe was enraged watching this go down and after 8 minutes felt like the police were never going to get there. I genuinely think if he had just said "Joe, we have an undercover officer outside to tail them" he would have been alright with it.

My neighbors are mostly older people and several have been robbed before we moved in. If I see this going down one day and the cops didn't get there and they started through my yard, I'd be damn tempted to walk out front and attempt to apprehend them myself.

As for the color, I could give a shit myself. A fucking thief is a fucking thief with melanin or without. The jury might have seen it differently, but I would not have.

[Edited on July 1, 2008 at 10:27 AM. Reason : ]

7/1/2008 10:25:04 AM

happened in Texas

/thread

7/1/2008 10:25:26 AM

Quote :

"However, allowing a citizen the right to execute another citizen (or non-citizen) should not be legal - the government cannot do it except for in extreme cases."

It depends on what you mean.

Generally speaking, the castle doctrine exists to allow people to defend themselves. I'm not sure why you'd want to place restrictions on peoples' right to defend themselves in their homes.

In this case, yeah. I'm not a huge fan of it. Definitely shouldn't be on-the-books-legal, but I'm not torn up inside that the grand jury let him go.


And when all else fails, the question of whether or not theft is worth the loss of life is up to the criminal, not the property owner.

7/1/2008 10:27:17 AM

Quote :

"Definitely shouldn't be on-the-books-legal, but I'm not torn up inside that the grand jury let him go."

could not be the more general feeling

7/1/2008 10:28:35 AM

Quote :

"Sums it up best. Horn did nothing wrong."

It always amazes me that those most likely to feign defense of the absolute nature of the constitution and the rule of law in matters of legislation are the most likely to ignore the whole "innocent until proven guilty in the court of law" thing.

Courts and juries and laws are so inconvenient.

7/1/2008 10:29:19 AM

The man was protecting his neighbors from crime. Who is to say they werent coming after him next? The shooter didnt know, only the stupid criminals did.

I have no trouble with the man helping his neighbors.. if the moron criminals die in the process.. fine with me.. This man just saved the taxpayers thousands of dollars. He should get a reward not a trial.

Quote :

"And when all else fails, the question of whether or not theft is worth the loss of life is up to the criminal, not the property owner. "

well said boone.

[Edited on July 1, 2008 at 10:31 AM. Reason : /]

7/1/2008 10:29:56 AM

i do agree that killing the thieves seems excessive, especially when they weren't armed and/or trying to attack horn.

he should have had the shells filled with salt. that would have stopped them too.

but at the same time, to paraphrase No country for old men, the thieves died of natural causes -- natural to their line of work, anyway.

7/1/2008 10:31:34 AM

Quote :

"It always amazes me that those most likely to feign defense of the absolute nature of the constitution and the rule of law in matters of legislation are the most likely to ignore the whole "innocent until proven guilty in the court of law" thing. Courts and juries and laws are so inconvenient. "

Ok jocristian. The next time someone breaks into your house, you serve them papers and Ill serve them some buckshot. Which is more effective in protecting my family? In your opinion?

Clearly the LAW wasnt enough of a deterant in the first place for these idiots.

This man did nothing wrong.

Oh, you must have missed the part where he called the cops and watched them rob his neighbors. But you are right, they might have been innocent and just started a new midnight movers company. But my hunch is that since he shot the two taking shit from the house, that he didnt shoot the wrong guys. Just a hunch sport.

[Edited on July 1, 2008 at 10:37 AM. Reason : .]

7/1/2008 10:35:14 AM

Quote :

"The man was protecting his neighbors from crime. Who is to say they werent coming after him next? The shooter didnt know, only the stupid criminals did."

Who is to say they were? If they had come into his house, I would not have had a problem with him blowing them away. They were fleeing from a neighbor's home several houses down. He called 911 and the guy told him specifically not to shoot but to wait for the cops instead.

^there is a huge difference between shooting someone who has come into your house and it is ambiguous whether they are a threat and walking down the street shooting two unarmed theives from a home you know to be vacant.

[Edited on July 1, 2008 at 10:37 AM. Reason : d]

7/1/2008 10:35:24 AM

whats the difference jo? If someone is in your house or in your yard? Arent they still innocenct until proven guilty by your reasoning?

what would you like to happen to the good neighbor?

7/1/2008 10:39:44 AM

^Joe Horn knew the neighbors weren't home. That is why he was watching in the first place.

The difference is one poses an immediate threat to your person or family and the other doesn't.

Seems pretty clear to me. Those guys were not attacking Joe Horn. They weren't even on his property.

[Edited on July 1, 2008 at 10:43 AM. Reason : d]

7/1/2008 10:42:35 AM

He murdered those guys. If you listen to the 911 call, he is talking himself up, telling the dispatcher that he is going to kill the guys. There is no way that he should go free.

7/1/2008 10:47:51 AM

This is a case of vigilantism, not protection of property. If the man was being robbed himself, defense is fine. But there is a clear difference here, he was trying to protect someone else's PROPERTY. What he did was kill someone, execution style and from behind. The man is a coward and deserves to be in jail.

7/1/2008 10:48:15 AM

Quote :

"They weren't even on his property. "

Quote :

"although the burglars were running across Horn's lawn"

He was being a good neighbor. Id like to live next to him over some of you guys for sure. I cant believe some of you are defending the criminals. IF they died in the act of a crime.. so be it.

7/1/2008 10:51:10 AM

What can I say, I watched all five of them.

7/1/2008 10:52:46 AM

I wouldn't want to live near anyone who thinks this is ok. I don't want my front yard turned into a bloody crime scene over my stereo. Damn.

[Edited on July 1, 2008 at 10:56 AM. Reason : d]

7/1/2008 10:54:52 AM

7/1/2008 10:54:59 AM

Quote :

"I cant believe some of you are defending the criminals."

Are you a fucking idiot or are you just TRYING to be a douche?

The dispatcher repeatedly tells the man not to go out there and do anything. He even tells the dispatcher, "I'm sorry." The dispatcher tells the man for MINUTES not to go out and that killing someone for property isn't worth it. This man committed premeditated murder.


He also yells, 'you're dead.'

[Edited on July 1, 2008 at 10:57 AM. Reason : .]

7/1/2008 10:56:01 AM

Quote :

"This is a case of vigilantism, not protection of property. If the man was being robbed himself, defense is fine. But there is a clear difference here, he was trying to protect someone else's PROPERTY. What he did was kill someone, execution style and from behind. The man is a coward and deserves to be in jail."

Vigilantism, yes. Cowardice? I hardly think so. Cowardice would have been holing up in his place and letting his neighbor get robbed.

I think a reasonable case could be made that he used excessive force, given the fact that it was not his property and the thieves turned out to be unarmed. i.e., I think one could reasonably contend that Horn could have thwarted the burglary and detained the suspects without the use of lethal force. Which means a reasonable charge might have been manslaughter, not murder.

But the racism charge is just specious. Give it a goddamned rest already. (Note that I am not implying you cried racism, but just that some have.)

[Edited on July 1, 2008 at 10:58 AM. Reason : .]

7/1/2008 10:56:25 AM

they sure as hell shouldn't have gone in his yard or he'd be locked up

7/1/2008 11:05:13 AM

Apparently they only went into his yard after he left the house and pointed a gun at them.

7/1/2008 11:12:24 AM

^what? So you are saying they approached the man with the gun?

7/1/2008 11:19:02 AM

That sounds like a justifiable scenario.

He goes out, points the gun at them, they charge him and enter his property. The only qualm I had with this was that I thought he shot them on his neighbors property.

If this scenario is accurate, how does this violate the castle doctrine? Where they entering his property to bake him cupcakes?

[Edited on July 1, 2008 at 11:22 AM. Reason : .]

7/1/2008 11:20:55 AM

twista, are you saying that the thieves should have been armed?

7/1/2008 11:20:55 AM

I think he is saying we have two less thieves, and thats a start.

7/1/2008 11:25:17 AM

i agree with the no-bill...the cops don't care if you or your neighbor has something stolen from them...the won't do anything to get your property back...you have to do what you have to do to protect your property and your neighbor's and hope your neighbor would do the same for you...the guys he shot were armed robbers...yet they get victimized...maybe they shouldn't have been robbing peoples' homes...do the crime face the punishment

7/1/2008 11:28:13 AM

Quote :

"the guys he shot were armed robbers"

they were?

Quote :

"do the crime face the punishment"

nowhere in the country would this be a justifiable punishment for theft

[Edited on July 1, 2008 at 11:29 AM. Reason : .]

7/1/2008 11:28:53 AM

i don't know if the both had guns, but they were definitely armed

and they chose to break into people's houses...unemployed colombian illegal aliens came to america to break into houses and steal shit

fuck them and fuck trying to victimize them...did they ask to be shot and killed? tacitly when they broke into the wrong house

apparently the legal system agrees with me...i'm sure there are other people who think we should've given them a slap on the wrist and explained to them that what they were doing is wrong...oh well

7/1/2008 11:31:51 AM

so. care to provide any evidence that EITHER of them was armed?

7/1/2008 11:33:08 AM

Quote :

"nowhere in the country would this be a justifiable punishment for theft"

In many states, it'd be a justifiable "punishment" for entering private property with intent to commit a crime.

No' Cackalacky, for one. Texas, for another.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doctrine

7/1/2008 11:33:43 AM

^^does a crowbar not count as being armed? http://tinyurl.com/6mmzyt

7/1/2008 11:35:47 AM

no it's really not. the castle doctrine applies to being trespassed upon.

^so your evidence is a link to an entirely different story?

[Edited on July 1, 2008 at 11:36 AM. Reason : .]

7/1/2008 11:35:58 AM

Quote :

""I'm glad he's not going to jail, but it's a bad thing, killing a couple people," said John White, 51, who lives half a block away from Horn. "It's sad for everyone, him and the victims." "

pretty much my thoughts.

vigilantism? yeah. that doesn't bother me so much, though.

Excessive? Probably.

Do I really care that these two guys are gone? No.



from wikipedia:

Quote :

"Both were convicted criminals from Colombia who had entered the country illegally, and were members of an organized burglary ring in Houston.[1] Police found a Puerto Rican identification card on Ortiz while Torres had three identification cards from Colombia, Puerto Rico, and the Dominican Republic, and had been previously sent to prison for dealing cocaine and was deported in 1999"

Quote :

"Joe Horn, 61, spotted two burglars breaking into his next-door Vietnamese-American neighbor's home "

at least some evidence against this baseless charge of racism

Quote :

"Police Capt. A.H. Corbett stated the two men ignored Mr. Horn's order to freeze and one of the suspects ran towards Joe Horn before he angled away from him toward the street when he was shot in the back."

and at the end of the day:

Quote :

"And when all else fails, the question of whether or not theft is worth the loss of life is up to the criminal, not the property owner. "

Quote :

"but at the same time, to paraphrase No country for old men, the thieves died of natural causes -- natural to their line of work, anyway. "

oh, and:

Quote :

"he should have had the shells filled with salt. that would have stopped them too. "

salt-filled shells aren't so readily available. you have to either reload them yourself (requiring special equipment and some knowledge of what you're doing) or have a friend who does. in addition, they are about 99% useless. you could go with bean-bag rounds (especially if you only load one or two, backed up by 00-buck if you need it, which you might after really pissing him off with the bean bag). This isn't a good idea in my mind, either. For better or for worse, the mindset in the legal system is that if the situation wasn't dire enough to warrant lethal force, you didn't have any business shooting him to begin with. This, in addition to tactical reasons, is why you shouldn't try to shoot anyone in the leg or anything like that. Either don't shoot at all, or start shooting him in the chest and don't stop until he's on the ground and incapacitated.

Quote :

"The only qualm I had with this was that I thought he shot them on his neighbors property. "

No, my understanding is that he shot them both on his own property. I think maybe they were running away after breaking into the first house and picked a very poor avenue of escape, but hey...sometimes when you roll the dice like that, the house wins.

[Edited on July 1, 2008 at 11:41 AM. Reason : asdfasd]

7/1/2008 11:37:33 AM

Quote :

"so your evidence is a link to an entirely different story?"

i'll gladly post a link to the original story since you apparently forgot that the way the burglars originally got into the neighbor's house was using a crowbar to smash a window...i was simply posting a link that shows that a crowbar can do some damage

here

http://tinyurl.com/6cum9j

Quote :

"Horn was home in Pasadena, about 15 miles southeast of Houston, on Nov. 14 when he heard glass breaking, said his attorney, Tom Lambright. He looked out the window and saw 38-year-old Miguel Antonio DeJesus and 30-year-old Diego Ortiz using a crowbar to break out the rest of the glass."

7/1/2008 11:37:46 AM

On the one hand, I don't feel bad that these scum have been eliminated from life.

On the other hand, I think it's pretty obvious these guys didn't charge Joe and the cop made up that little bit to help him slide. I think the racism piece of it (as much as I hate to see the card played) is definitely in effect here. Think about it. Two stereotypical gun toting cowboy Texans have just eliminated two latinos that were robbing homes. OF COURSE THEY ARE GOING TO LOOK OUT FOR EACH OTHER.

I don't mind the law so much in cases like this, but like others mentioned, if 2 white American teenagers decide to do something stupid like rob a house for shits and giggles, is blasting them in the back justifiable punishment for them? And with that in mind, I don't like hot head gun toting cowboys playing judge and jury in situations like this.

7/1/2008 11:39:29 AM

I have no problem if he took his weapon outside in order to stop the criminals from robbing the house. From which point if that tried to attack him or drew their weapons then i have no problem with Mr. Horn shooting those fuckbags to oblivion. However, if they were simply carrying the TV out to the van and Mr. Horn just ran up and blew two shells into them; then i'd say he was in the wrong. I wouldn't give him a murder charge, but some form of punishment would be due.
Otherwise it sets precedent for granny sue shooting a 17 yr old in the back after she watches them pocket a candy bar at the 7-11

7/1/2008 11:40:17 AM

Quote :

"Two stereotypical gun toting cowboy Texans"

is one of the stereotypical gun toting cowboy Texans his Vietnamese-American neighbor? Aside from Horn, who is the other Texan cowboy?

7/1/2008 11:41:17 AM

Quote :

"And when all else fails, the question of whether or not theft is worth the loss of life is up to the criminal, not the property owner."

Well put.

If you choose to be a criminal, you should expect a wide range of responses from your victims and their friends/relatives...up to and including deadly force.

Thnak God we still have a strong jury system.

7/1/2008 11:44:15 AM

...In Texas.

7/1/2008 11:45:05 AM