2

Quote :

"Geez - the LS hybrid starts at $105k:"

Its entire intent is a small buisness write-off.

Quote :

" I've personally disproven that."

is yours turbo... otherwise you need to get your Gtech pro or whatever you used calibrated cause it just flat will not do it. hell my cherokee came with a similar power to weight ratio

Jeep Cherokee (190hp & 3150lbs) Lexus IS (215hp &3270lbs)

9/15/2008 7:47:15 AM

I'd rather have a Porsche Panamera.

9/15/2008 8:46:25 AM

Quote :

"the hybrid is altogether a different animal. the LS600h has no competitor. neither does the GS450h, nor does the RX400h. that's something where Lexus wins. (whether the hybrids are justified or not, is another issue, but just the fact that Lexus was and still is the first one to make a luxury hybrid... 3 of them! MB, BMW, Audi, and Porsche are following suit in the near future)"

Big deal. Lexus says its V8 hybrid in the LS delivers V12 performance with V8 fuel economy (or something along those lines). Well its performance is about the same as the S550. If you compare the LS460 to the S550 performance-wise it loses by a wide margin.

9/15/2008 8:47:57 AM

Quote :

"Lexus cars are NO LONGER DIRECTLY BASED ON TOYOTA MODELS so thats the last I want to hear of that."

Lexus ES350 = Toyota Camry V6
Lexus GS = Toyota Avalon
Lexus RX = Toyota Rav4 V6
Lexus LX = Toyota Land Cruiser
Lexus GX = Toyota 4Runner V8

Lexus original cars
IS Series
SC430
LS Series

Quote :

"I'd rather have a Porsche Panamera."

It might actually turn out to be a good looking car after the shots I saw this morning.


The only cars I like out of their entire brand are the IS300, IS350, and the IS-F. I like the IS300 and IS-F because they remind me of other cars. The IS-F reminds me of the E39 M5 with paddle shifters. The IS300 reminds me of the Toyota Supra, just because it shares the same or similar motor with the non-turbo Supra.

[Edited on September 15, 2008 at 4:12 PM. Reason : :]

9/15/2008 4:04:06 PM

I think what he meant was:

Quote :

"Lexus cars are NO LONGER NECESSARILY DIRECTLY BASED ON TOYOTA MODELS"

which is a true statement.

9/15/2008 4:26:56 PM

^^

Quote :

"Lexus GS = Toyota Avalon"

Come on man! The Toyota Avalon is FWD. The GS is RWD. Need I say more?

9/15/2008 5:34:52 PM

Quote :

"Lexus is for people that don't enjoy driving. BORING"

Quote :

"I would take an audi/mercedes/infiniti over a lexus anyday just cause I enjoy driving. "

x1000

9/15/2008 8:32:43 PM

Quote :

"Lexus ES350 = Toyota Camry V6 Lexus GS = Toyota Avalon Lexus RX = Toyota Rav4 V6 Lexus LX = Toyota Land Cruiser Lexus GX = Toyota 4Runner V8 Lexus original cars IS Series SC430 LS Series"

Ive already addressed the ES350. Pat pwnt you on the GS, and neither the RX (actually a highlander not a RAV4), LX or GX are FUCKING CARS!

And about your little "lexus original cars" list- the toyota altezza was sold for 2 years in japan before the first IS was sold in the USA. The SC cars up till 2001 were ALL toyota soarers, but that changed when toyota threw the bone to lexus and decided to develop the solara platform. Do your fucking homework.

[Edited on September 15, 2008 at 9:08 PM. Reason : sagf]

9/15/2008 8:51:07 PM

Quote :

"being the first one to make something doesn't always mean its the best."

Well, if there is only one [ X ] in the world, it is the best, worst, fastest, slowest, ugliest, and prettiest [ X ] in the world. The point is, they are the first car maker to come out with luxury hybrids in THREE different classes. They will be known for that, and it will add greatly to the halo effect. Not to mention, by the time MB, BMW, Audi, and Porsche come out with luxury hybrids, the ones by Lexus would have had YEARS of practice and would be far better, at least in terms of engineering and efficiency.

Quote :

"I'd rather have a Porsche Panamera."

NO WAI!!! Who wouldn't have a Porsche over a Lexus, no matter how ugly the Porsche maybe? (assuming the criterion is performance) BTW, what car exactly does the Panamera compete with in Lexus' lineup? I guess you only brought it up because it is ugly, but still, the Panamera is irrelevant here. But, would you take a Cadillac or a Lincoln over a Lexus?

Quote :

"Lexus says its V8 hybrid in the LS delivers V12 performance with V8 fuel economy (or something along those lines). Well its performance is about the same as the S550."

Going by horsepower and company-published acceleration figures, the LS600h is almost identical to the 760Li and the A8 W12. The S550 also has the same 0-60 mph time, as does the LS460. You can't bring in the S600 into this as it is TT'ed, and so far superior in performance. But if you consider the previous non-TT'ed S600, again, its horsepower and acceleration was the same as that of the LS600h, 760Li, and the A8 W12. Oh, and the LS600h is FAR cheaper than the 760Li & A8 W12, and offers MUCH MUCH better fuel economy, even better than that of the LS460!

Quote :

"If you compare the LS460 to the S550 performance-wise it loses by a wide margin."

If you are talking about straight-line, they have identical official 0-60 mph times. On a track, I don't know... but even looking at their track performance is ridiculous. Oh, and they both have the same hp, but the Lexus gets it out of 4.6 litres, whereas the MB needs 5.5 litres. And the Lexus has better fuel economy. And it is $25,000 cheaper. (starting MSRPs)

Similar performance, luxury, amenities
Better fuel economy
Far better reliability

For 25 grand less?

Sure, MB has a name, history, and status attached to it, and Lexus doesn't [yet]. Point is, old people who are established MB owners would never look at Lexus, and vice versa. But for new customers, esp those who don't care about name and status, the LS460 is obviously a far better buy, from an objective point of view (discarding status, looks, etc).

Quote :

"Lexus GS = Toyota Avalon"

The Avalon is just a bigger Camry (same platform), so no.

Quote :

"Lexus RX = Toyota Rav4 V6"

Actually, it (1st gen) is partly based on the Camry platform, so again, no, but your point stands. The 1st and 2nd generation RAV4s were based on the Corolla platform. Later generation RXs shared the platform partly with the Toyota Highlander. The RX qualifies more as an original Lexus than the IS. See below.

Quote :

"Lexus GX = Toyota 4Runner V8"

Actually, the GX is based on the Land Cruiser Prado platform, and the 4Runner and FJ also happen to be based on the same platform, but your point stands. The Land Cruiser Prado is sold in Australia and Asia, and looks completely identical [-ly ugly] to the Lexus GX which is sold in North America only.

BTW, ALL Lexus models have at one point been (some still) sold as JDM-only Toyotas, but most people don't know it. Actually, some of the Lexus models are based on JDM-only Toyotas, and so they are thought of as unique Lexuses, but are not so.

Quote :

"Lexus original cars IS Series SC430 LS Series"

Lexus LS and Toyota Celsior debuted at the same time as original cars. The Lexus LS (all generations) is one of the most reliable and quitest cars ever made by any company.

Lexus IS (1st gen) was a rebadged Toyota Altezza. So yes, even the IS was originally based on a Toyota.

Lexus GS (1st, 2nd gen) was a rebadged Toyota Aristo, which was based on the Toyota Crown platform.

Lexus SC (1st gen) and 3rd gen Toyota Soarer debuted at the same time, having been designed in California. 2nd gen Soarer was totally boxy. The new design was revolutionary for its time, and lasted 9 years because it was so ahead of its time, and IMO, one of the most beautiful modern cars ever built. It used the Supra chassis, and the SC300 even used the Supra engine. It also featured some automotive innovations.

Lexus RX debuted first based on the Camry platform, and then a few months later was sold as a Toyota Harrier in Japan. It (RX) qualifies more as an original Lexus than the IS or GS, which were Toyotas first (in Japan), and then made into Lexuses for the international market.

Quote :

"The IS300 reminds me of the Toyota Supra, just because it shares the same or similar motor with the non-turbo Supra."

As should the original SC, which not only used the Supra engine (in the SC300), but was also based on the Supra platform. It was arguably the best luxo-coupe of its time. The new SC is blah and pointless.

And you are right about the original IS300. It was the best Lexus ever, design-wise, along with the original SC, IMO. BTW, the new IS is still sold only as an IS300 in some countries. It uses the same engine as in the IS250/350, with engine capacity changed to 3 litres (3GR-FE). It develops 228 hp.

Some of you hating on Lexus and saying MBs/BMWs/Audis/etc are better, should reread my post from the first page:

Quote :

"For those of you hating on Lexus, just think how much Toyota has been able to accomplish in 17 19 years with their experiment with luxury. A LOT. Now imagine where Lexus will be in another 17 19 years from now. Sure, their cars maybe boring or formulaic, but when it comes to luxury, they beat almost everything. All Lexuses come better equipped than comparable Infinitis (Infinitis look hot!), and at least as well equipped as the Germans, if not better, and at a much lower price than the Germans."

When it comes to reliability (all models) and cabin quietness (LS and ES), they make some of the best cars in the world. They have acheived that in 19 years They acheived it as soon as they started, beating the Germans who have been at it for several decades.

Quote :

"I would take an audi/mercedes/infiniti/bmw over a lexus anyday just cause I enjoy driving."

Of course anybody would (if they enjoy driving). They have JUST branched out into performance and sportiness, so of course they suck at it. So there is no point in saying that over and over again. But give them a few to several more years, and I can't see why they can't come out with sports cars and sports sedans to rival the best from Germany. They CAN do it, whether they want to do it or not, is another thing. And by sticking to their current formula [of blandness], they are not exactly losing any sales, are they? If the LF-A performs as well as some rumours out there, it will rival the best of the Italians and Germans. (I am talking on a track, not just straight-line)

BTW, these guys liked the IS350 the best between it, the G35 Sport, and the TL Type-S. The IS350 even did a class-leading 4.9 second 0-60 mph run, which is nothing short of impressive. Yes I know, straight-line is not everything, but still, that's just impressive.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=2&article_id=4459

9/15/2008 9:07:54 PM

theres more to cars than stats and numbers

thats why lexus/infinity/hyundai/acura will NEVER EVER catch up to mb or bmw.

live with a lexus/acura/infinity for awhile and then move into a german car and tell me that the numbers are wrong. You will.

going from a 05 TL to a 98 c280... and i like the 280 SO much better. its still a better car even 7 years old.

people compare lexus to the germans.. because they are still the standard of the world

9/15/2008 9:17:28 PM

Quote :

"thats why lexus/infinity/hyundai/acura will NEVER EVER catch up to mb or bmw."

That's just silly. Because that would entail you being able to predict the future. We also said we could never go to the moon. Which task was/is tougher, humans going to the moon, or Lexus catching up to the Germans one day? Also, your statement is silly in another way: It is like saying if you fire two bullets from the same gun, the one fired 2nd will never catch up to the 1st. But surely the 2nd will reach every single point reached by the 1st (assuming they go forever). So Lexus may or may not catch up to the Germans one day (no one can say), but it will surely reach every 'point' reached by the Germans.

As for your last point, of course. Who disputed that? BTW, the Germans are the standard of the world when it comes to performance and driving pleasure. But when it comes to reliability, surely the Japanese are the standard of the world. So your statement is actually too broad. And so -- going back to the first point -- will the Germans ever catch up to the Japanese in terms of reliability? Who knows...!

9/15/2008 9:43:38 PM

I can agree that BMW/Audi is better performance wise, but MB is just an overpriced-piece of junk. Anybody looked at the reliability reports of MB cars? You would think with all that money you paid, you would get a more reliable car.

9/15/2008 10:27:54 PM

^They admitted they had a problem years ago, when they began pushing their new technology too far. They've been in the process of fixing it and reliability has been going back up.

OEPII1, my apologizes on the comparison of the S550 and LS460. I thought the LS still had the 290hp engine, not 380hp. The performance stats I found online in a brief search gave me (0-60) of 5.8 for the LS, 5.6 for the S550.

Do I think Lexus will catch up to BMW & MB with the total package? No, b/c you can't engineer a soul. Toyotas/Lexus cars have been soul-less for the last 10 years or more (actually for Lexus its been always).

I applaud Toyota for investing in a Formula One team. But you have to wonder, for all the hundreds of millions of dollars they're pouring in each year, they still can't compete with the Ferraris and Mercedes...

9/16/2008 7:52:41 AM

Quote :

"NO WAI!!! Who wouldn't have a Porsche over a Lexus, no matter how ugly the Porsche maybe? (assuming the criterion is performance) BTW, what car exactly does the Panamera compete with in Lexus' lineup? I guess you only brought it up because it is ugly, but still, the Panamera is irrelevant here. But, would you take a Cadillac or a Lincoln over a Lexus?"

Well if you must have a large 4 door RWD car and your going to spend six figures...why wouldn't you get the Porsche or a CLS?



I would take a newer CTS-V over a IS350. Lincolns suck ass.

9/16/2008 8:33:14 AM

Quote :

"Well if you must have a large 4 door RWD car and your going to spend six figures...why wouldn't you get the Porsche or a CLS?"

"Large 4 door RWD car" is a VERY broad category. It includes cars like the Cadillac DTS, and the MB S65 AMG, and they are poles apart.

Dude, the Panamera DOES NOT compete with any Lexus. In fact, it will have very very few direct competitors. The only I can think of is MB CLS. Two upcoming ones are Aston Martin Rapide, and Audi A7 (S7, RS7). If you think the Lexus LS competes with the Panamera, you are out of your mind. Only someone retarded or stoned would consider both cars at the same time when in the market.

Quote :

"I would take a newer CTS-V over a IS350."

Here we go again, comparing cars not even remotely in the same class. Did you just compare a 306 hp car with a 556 hp car? CTS-V competes [performance-wise] with M5, E63 AMG, and RS6. That's it. And if you are now thinking about the IS-F, again, don't. That one competes with the M3, C63 AMG, and RS4.

I would rather have an M5 over an Acura TL. What about you?

9/16/2008 5:12:35 PM

^hells yeah me too:

I'd say the Maserati Quattroporte is also a competitor of the Panamerica.

9/16/2008 5:22:45 PM

Quote :

"No, b/c you can't engineer a soul. Toyotas/Lexus cars have been soul-less for the last 10 years or more (actually for Lexus its been always). "

Inorite? That shit is so saddening and annoying. They have so much money and resources, but they can't seem to produce cars that have passion. As I said earlier, maybe they don't want to? Because with their current formula, they are still making loads of money. But surely, if they produced a couple of models that are youthful and sporty, they would make more money, wouldn't they?

I mean, Nissan, Mazda, Honda, Mitsubishi, Subaru, all produce 1-2 sports/sporty cars each. Why can't Toyota do it?

I hope they change this aspect of their company.

^ Oh yeah, Quattroporte as well, even though it is not a "4-door coupe", which is a stupid designation anyway! Oh, and BMW 8-series, which came out as a concept a while ago. If they make it, that would also be one.

9/16/2008 5:28:41 PM

isn't Toyota bringing the Supra back?

9/16/2008 6:18:21 PM

Yes they are, as well as the new car they are making with Subaru, but they have no sporty car in their lineup yet. And haven't had for years, aside from the Scion tC. Whereas Mazda, Nissan, Honda, Mitsu, Nissan, and Subaru have pretty much always had AT LEAST 1 sports car or sporty car in their lineups.

9/16/2008 8:07:48 PM

Quote :

" aside from the Scion tC "

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

thats the funniest thing thats been said all day

hahahhaahahaha

ahahahaahah
hahaha
excuse me while i go puke in my mouth

what a POS the tC is.. i feel bad for you if its "sporty" in your opinion.

you got swindled

9/16/2008 8:50:04 PM

Sporty like a Chevy Cobalt.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENK! WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENK!

Oh and:

Quote :

"OEP's life story and a bunch of words"

Can I find the cliff's notes version of that post at Barnes and Noble?

9/16/2008 8:53:53 PM

Well, this thread turned out fantastic.

9/16/2008 9:00:34 PM

Quote :

"ahahahaahah hahaha excuse me while i go puke in my mouth what a POS the tC is.. i feel bad for you if its "sporty" in your opinion. you got swindled"

Yeah, I know it is a POS. Are you arguing that the tC is not the "sportiest" car in Toyota's lineup? "Sporty" is a relative term, and I don't see anything sportier [for young people] than the tC in Toyota's lineup. Do you?

And no, I don't own a tC, if that's what you were getting at.

Quote :

"Can I find the cliff's notes version of that post at Barnes and Noble?"

No dude. You gotta read it. It was a mixture of philosophy, logic, pwntism, auto history (lots), and some plain old facts/stats.

9/16/2008 9:31:10 PM

Quote :

"Quote : "Well if you must have a large 4 door RWD car and your going to spend six figures...why wouldn't you get the Porsche or a CLS?" "Large 4 door RWD car" is a VERY broad category. It includes cars like the Cadillac DTS, and the MB S65 AMG, and they are poles apart. Dude, the Panamera DOES NOT compete with any Lexus. In fact, it will have very very few direct competitors. The only I can think of is MB CLS. Two upcoming ones are Aston Martin Rapide, and Audi A7 (S7, RS7). If you think the Lexus LS competes with the Panamera, you are out of your mind. Only someone retarded or stoned would consider both cars at the same time when in the market. Quote : "I would take a newer CTS-V over a IS350." Here we go again, comparing cars not even remotely in the same class. Did you just compare a 306 hp car with a 556 hp car? CTS-V competes [performance-wise] with M5, E63 AMG, and RS6. That's it. And if you are now thinking about the IS-F, again, don't. That one competes with the M3, C63 AMG, and RS4. I would rather have an M5 over an Acura TL. What about you?"

What exactly makes the Panemera that different? Maybe b/c the LS might seat 5 people, vs the Panemera's 4? They are both large, 4 door, rwd and six figure cars...I guess the porsche might not have massaging seats.

As far as a newer cts-v vs. is1350, I mean old body style ctsv vs. the same kind of money for the brand new granny/girlfriend mobile. Try eBay.

9/16/2008 9:43:30 PM

Quote :

"I don't see anything sportier [for young people] than the tC in Toyota's lineup. Do you?"

IS300

9/16/2008 9:54:56 PM

? the IS300 isnt sold by toyota.

9/16/2008 10:14:40 PM

Quote :

"What exactly makes the Panemera that different? Maybe b/c the LS might seat 5 people, vs the Panemera's 4? They are both large, 4 door, rwd and six figure cars...I guess the porsche might not have massaging seats."

Wow dude. If you think that an ultra-performance Porsche sedan and an ultra-luxury Lexus Hybrid sedan are similar vehicles and directed at the same customers, I can't help you. I seriously hope you are not that thick.

That's like saying the 911 Carrera is not that different from the Lexus SC430!!! Or the M3 Coupe not that different from the SC430.

9/16/2008 10:22:51 PM

Quote :

"? the IS300 isnt sold by toyota."

I know. But he mentioned the tC, and I therefore concluded that we was discussing Toyota and all brands under the umbrella.

9/16/2008 11:00:58 PM

^^I'm not really bothering to type anything to reply either. He seems pretty far removed from the auto industry (nothing wrong with that, just saying)

^I can go either way with that definition. However the current IS model is blander than the last one (still my favorite lexus model though)

[Edited on September 16, 2008 at 11:20 PM. Reason : k]

9/16/2008 11:19:06 PM

You ppl love to bitch

9/17/2008 12:26:23 AM

Quote :

"^^I'm not really bothering to type anything to reply either. He seems pretty far removed from the auto industry (nothing wrong with that, just saying) ^I can go either way with that definition. However the current IS model is blander than the last one (still my favorite lexus model though)"

Removed from the auto industry? Wtf does that mean? Does it mean you read more car and driver than me? Does it mean because you drive a ragged out Integra that you're more of an automotive enthusiast than me?

I'd rather have the 4 door porsche than the luxo barge, plain and simple. They are in the same price bracket, porsche will have it in a hybrid and they are of similar dimensions. But it's all pissing contest now, b/c as a fresh grad I could never afford one and I'm willing to be neither to you. If however I have the chance to buy a 4 door car for six figures, the Porsche would win.

9/17/2008 8:28:58 AM

Dude, price and dimensions are NOT the only things that determine if 2 cars are competitors or not. Bringing up the Porsche is IRRELEVANT.

Its like saying if I could afford a ~70K 2-door 4-seat car, I would definitely get the 911 than the SC430. No fucking shit!

They are not the same type of car
They are not competitors
Neither is going to steal sales from the other
No customer looking at one would even consider the other
The barge competes with other barges
The hi-po sports sedan competes with other hi-po sports sedans

9/17/2008 8:48:25 AM

This is going back to the Lexus is an appliance.

9/17/2008 9:07:45 AM

Yeah, and you were comparing a sports car with an appliance???

9/17/2008 9:19:28 AM

Quote :

"Removed from the auto industry? Wtf does that mean? Does it mean you read more car and driver than me? Does it mean because you drive a ragged out Integra that you're more of an automotive enthusiast than me? I'd rather have the 4 door porsche than the luxo barge, plain and simple. They are in the same price bracket, porsche will have it in a hybrid and they are of similar dimensions. But it's all pissing contest now, b/c as a fresh grad I could never afford one and I'm willing to be neither to you. If however I have the chance to buy a 4 door car for six figures, the Porsche would win."

Fine I'll drag it out for you.

The Mercedes-Benz CLS started this whole "4 door coupe fad". You take a 4 door sedan platform and competely redesign it with style being priority #1 Not rear passenger comfort, not cargo capacity. The CLS has a rakish profile that limits rear head room by quite a bit. Also, with the sporting theme they put two deeply bucketed seats in the rear and eliminated the middle seat. Its been very popular. VW just came out with something in the same genre (cheaper though) with a version of the Passat. BMW is most likely coming out with a version of their own shortly (8 Series). And I believe the Porsche Panamerica and Aston Martin (forget name) will be in the same vein. Did I learn this from just reading car magazines? Yeah I guess so. But it is pretty simple stuff.

Quote :

"Does it mean because you drive a ragged out Integra that you're more of an automotive enthusiast than me? "

Personal attack time huh? I just moved back from living in NYC for 3 years. Why don't you tell me what I should have purchased while living there? Perhaps something brand new and fancy to get dented and dirty in the city I'm back in NC and will be making a transportation upgrade in the next few months

9/17/2008 9:45:04 AM

Yea, I know about the CLS and quattroporte...and they are all vehicles I'd rather have. Well except the CLS. Old man was looking at getting one and the back seats suck ass for me at just 6 foot, but it's a great looking car.

9/17/2008 10:46:32 AM

this is a dumb thread.

The LS hybrid was made to get as many vehicular writeoffs as possible..
Its the ultimate small buisness vehicle.


[Edited on September 17, 2008 at 10:56 AM. Reason : .]

9/17/2008 10:55:17 AM

Quote :

"this is a dumb thread."

You mean it has become a dumb thread.

9/17/2008 1:14:55 PM

Here is something you can appreciate... the pics on the page below... freaking gorgeous!

message_topic.aspx?topic=481750&page=2

9/17/2008 8:39:09 PM

OEP, do you even own a car? drive anything on a semi regular basis? just curious.

9/17/2008 8:56:12 PM

he rides a fuckin camel.

9/17/2008 10:00:14 PM

haha

armchair racers in here

9/18/2008 8:30:49 AM

bttt

9/8/2009 11:02:47 AM

I have an IS250. It's a very nice vehicle. my only two three complaints are:
1) The manual was horrible. I'm sure a lighter flywheel would help with the RPM delay between shifting, especially when accelerating quickly.
2) Awkward trunk opening. Quite a bit of room in the boot, but there's been an occasional struggle to get bulky items thru.
3) No fold down seats. Really?

I don't have an issue with the 1st because I have an auto. I appreciate Lexus. But this will probably be the only one I own

[Edited on September 8, 2009 at 11:22 AM. Reason : .]

9/8/2009 11:21:13 AM

LF-Ch hybrid concept... to compete with BMW 1-series, Audi A3, Volvo C30, VW Golf/Scirocco, etc.

Quite a looker from the front, compared to the current Lexus lineup.

9/8/2009 7:03:40 PM

I can't fuck with Mercedes resale or lack of reliability

9/9/2009 12:17:00 AM

9/10/2009 2:40:49 AM

Hey look, a Toyota.

9/10/2009 8:55:32 AM

Hey look, a hater.

9/10/2009 9:07:59 AM

I was so close to getting an IS350. But, no company discounts with Toyata, so I went with a G37.

9/11/2009 3:51:25 PM