Quote :

"I'll give you that the boil time is longer but your other arguments are crap"

look, do you have any idea what you're talking about? really? or are you just basing this on your limited experience and unfounded assumptions? face it: you're a trail snob

long version: see below

let me teach you something, okay? i am NOT a chemical engineer, so i invite someone who knows more to correct me if i'm wrong, but here it goes:

first, specific enthalpy (in this case) is measured in BTUs/lb
second, it requires 140 BTUs to bring 1lb (1 pint) of water from room temperature (22C) to boiling (100C)
third, below are the average specific enthalpies of the various fuels

naphtha (white gas): 18,000 BTUs/lb
denatured alcohol: 12,000 BTUs/lb
methanol (yellow HEET): 10,000 BTUs/lb
gasoline: 19,000 BTUs/lb
fuel tabs: 13,000 BTUs/lb
isobutane: 19,000 BTUs/lb

fourth, the cost of the various fuels...for the purpose of this exercise, we're going to assume 1 fluid ounce = 1 weight ounce

naphtha (white gas): $8/32oz ($32/lb)
denatured alcohol: $9/32oz ($36/lb)
methanol (yellow HEET): $5/12oz ($53/lb)
gasoline: $4/128oz ($4/lb)
fuel tabs: $6/6oz ($128/lb)
isobutane: $6/8oz ($96/lb)

fifth, the cost of each to heat 1 pint (16oz or 1lb) of water ($ per pound / [specific enthalpy / 140])

naphtha (white gas): $0.25/pint
denatured alcohol: $0.42/pint
methanol (yellow HEET): $0.74/pint
gasoline: $0.03/pint
fuel tabs: $1.38/pint
isobutane: $0.71/pint

again, i may be off in something here (i'm admittedly bad at math), so please feel free to correct me if you think you have a better understanding than i do...but what it comes down to is that, in regards to fuel efficiency in terms of cost, in order of most efficient to least is:

1.) gasoline
2.) naphtha (white gas)
3.) denatured alcohol
4.) isobutane
5.) methanol (yellow HEET)
6.) fuel tabs

so the only thing WORSE than your precious yellow HEET is fuel tabs (which i admit i was way wrong about in my assessment that it was close in cost)...EVERYTHING else is better, and gasoline is inarguably more readily available

gasoline is the resounding winner here, being more than 300% cheaper AND 90% more efficient than yellow HEET...naphtha is 65% cheaper AND 80% more efficient...denatured alcohol is 47% cheaper AND 20% more efficient...isobutane is 80% more expensive, but it's 90% more efficient, so it's STILL a better choice

look, i get that you feel you have to defend your backpacking choices, and what it comes down to is personal preference (i mean, come on, what you do should only affect you, right?)...but you're wrong in saying:

Quote :

"Alcohol does not cost more and does not weigh more."

because that simply isn't true...it is more expensive per ounce than both gasoline and naphtha, which means that, in order to boil the same amount of water, you will have to carry more, which will cost you

short version: HEET sucks hard, denatured alcohol is better, but still not the best

EDIT: these values assume 100% heat transfer, which isn't realistic...the best of the bunch is the isobutane due, in part, to the ability to finely control the heat output...gasoline and naphtha are next in line, and finally denatured alcohol, HEET, and fuel tabs (though if you have something like a trangia that allows you to control the alcohol flame, it's better than the can-type alcohol burners)

[Edited on May 8, 2011 at 10:20 PM. Reason : .]

5/8/2011 10:00:24 PM

Nerdchick is a trail snob!

5/8/2011 10:30:46 PM

Just finished up the Art Loeb. Started 8:30am Friday and ended 3pm on Sunday. It was ridiculously rough and very challenging...but very worth it! Def not for beginners, but I think anyone with some Trail experiences will LOVE this!


There were a few sketchy areas that weren't posted well on the NG Map...so if anyone plans on going, holler at me and I'll help you out!


[Edited on May 8, 2011 at 11:33 PM. Reason : ..]

[Edited on May 8, 2011 at 11:34 PM. Reason : ..]

5/8/2011 11:28:21 PM

^ did you do the whole trail or just a particular section of it?

also, i love the art loeb

5/9/2011 6:18:18 AM

Limited experience? I'm the one that's posting from experience, not from looking up a bunch of numbers on the Internet. In my experience, a 4oz isobutane can make about 10 meals. Are you disputing this? And in my experience, 7oz of alcohol can easily make about 10 meals (depending on the stove of course). Seems like a bum deal for alcohol, right! BUT ...

Mistake #1: in your weight calculations, you're only counting only fuel weight and totally ignoring the weight of the fuel container and stove. By your reasoning we should all carry a propane grill (propane: 21,000 btu/lb) because of the outstanding energy to weight ratio!

So let's compare total weight, not just fuel. A soda bottle can be used to carry alcohol, but isobutane containers are metal. An 8 fluid oz container actually weighs 12oz. And if you have to carry multiple containers (which happens occasionally on a thru hike) you can double that. Now stoves: an MSR Pocket Rocket weighs 3oz, and many weigh more like Jetboil, etc. Don't forget to add in the plastic carrying case that most people keep their stoves in. My alcohol stove weighs less than 1/2 oz. I also use a wind screen and wire pot stand that combined weigh about 1/2 oz. I keep everything inside the pot so no need for an extra case.

Sure, those differences are not that much. But the energy/weight advantage of isobutane is easily made up for by the equipment weight advantage of alcohol.

Mistake #2: Cost. Are you seriously trumpeting a 3 cent per pint difference? Especially since prices of all fuels fluctuate immensely based on location. Some hostels like to to gouge hikers on the cannister, knowing they're the only place in town that sells them. But Advance Auto Parts everywhere charge $2/bottle for HEET.

Mistake #3: alcohol stoves do have a heat adjustment option, I don't have one myself but some people make a "simmer ring" that blocks off some of the flame to lower the heat.

Mistake #4: you make a bunch of wrong claims that I dispute, and that makes ME the snob? you're just a snob about carrying heavy stuff.

5/9/2011 8:50:57 AM

Did the whole thing...my ass and back can attest to this. LOVE IT! I had done a section of black balsam a year ago, decided to open up my summer season with something in NC.

5/9/2011 9:26:43 AM

the Art Loeb's awesome. Congrats on that hike!

5/9/2011 10:03:07 AM

^^^ Also I forgot to mention the initial cost difference! at quagmire's inflated estimate of 3 cents / pint advantage, it would take 1,000 dinners to make up the $30 cost of a Pocket Rocket vs $0 for a pepsi can stove.

5/9/2011 10:27:15 AM

Quote :

"Just finished up the Art Loeb. Started 8:30am Friday and ended 3pm on Sunday. It was ridiculously rough and very challenging...but very worth it! Def not for beginners, but I think anyone with some Trail experiences will LOVE this!"

i was actually on the Art Loeb this weekend, too. We stayed a little past the Butter Gap shelter. You guys run across any bear?

5/9/2011 10:44:59 AM

You all are splitting hairs.

If you're talking about thru-hiking, alcohol/HEET is by far the best method because of the constraints around where you stop, how many places carry the fuel, the amount of fuel you have to carry for days and weeks at a time with variable distances. Weight and bulk is very important to thru-hikers. The other thing is that most thru-hikers only hike the AT March-November (yes, I know some people do it over the winter too) but I'm just saying for most of the conditions it's the easiest, cheapest and most convenient option.

If you're talking about a fixed distance backpacking trip, I'd take my JetBoil any day. It can handle almost any outside temperature, high-winds, it's light-weight, faster boil times, better for groups, cost is less of an issue, and if it's fixed distance I know exactly how much fuel to take, and the canisters can be flattened after use. It's a no-brainer.

Also moving parts argument only applies to white fuel/unleaded pump based stoves... Isobutane / Propane canisters are no pump, you turn a valve and light, no real issues, regarding 'what if a part breaks'.

[Edited on May 9, 2011 at 11:26 AM. Reason : .]

5/9/2011 11:16:17 AM

you guys are arguing the wrong points here. If he uses a canister stove how is he going to burn a circle into every picnic table and shelter on the AT?

5/9/2011 11:20:12 AM

but if you drop the alcohol stove, you can burn the entire floor!

5/9/2011 11:23:38 AM

Quote :

"Limited experience? I'm the one that's posting from experience, not from looking up a bunch of numbers on the Internet."

i apologize...i assume, then, that you've tested all of these yourself and have data to back up your claim? i sincerely apologize, then...by all means, please prove to us all how, after extensive research, controlled experimentation, and scientific analysis have given you different results than, say, the values used by chemists the world over

Quote :

"In my experience, a 4oz isobutane can make about 10 meals. Are you disputing this?"

i am specifically calling you an idiot for measuring this all by "meals" as if "meals" is an acceptable unit of measure for comparison purposes...unless every single meal you make is exactly the same and made under the same conditions, you're blowing smoke

Quote :

"Mistake #1: in your weight calculations, you're only counting only fuel weight and totally ignoring the weight of the fuel container and stove. Well, propane has 21,000 BTU/lb. By your reasoning we should all carry a propane grill because of the outstanding energy to weight ratio! A soda bottle can be used to carry alcohol, but isobutane containers are metal. An 8 fluid oz container actually weighs 12oz. And if you have to carry multiple containers (which happens occasionally on a thru hike) you can double that container weight."

i didn't ignore anything...i specifically left out fuels that are unreasonable to use...i realize that you're grasping at whatever you can in order to poke holes in the science (you know what facts are, right?), but i was very careful to consider only those fuels that would make sense for backpacking

okay, so a 20oz MSR fuel bottle is 5oz (25oz total weight)...a 20oz PET soda bottle is 1oz (21oz total weight)...the MSR bottle filled with gasoline is worth 21 pints of boiled water (20 pints if naphtha) and your soda bottle is worth 13 pints...that means that the MSR bottle has the potential to boil 0.84 pints of water per oz of weight (0.8 if naphtha), while the soda bottle gives you 0.62 pints of boiled water per oz...to keep things consistent, 20oz of isobutane weighs 30oz and is worth 21 pints for a total of 0.7 pints of water per oz of weight

that means that gasoline is 35% more efficient by weight (naphtha is 29%) even AFTER factoring in the CRAZY heavy bottle...so not only is it more efficient, it is unarguably cheaper and gasoline is much more available...isobutane is 13% more efficient by weight

don't even start to compare that HEET shit...the bottles are thicker (heavier) and the fuel is the most inefficient

Quote :

"An MSR Pocket Rocket (the lightest canister stove) weighs 3oz, and many weigh more like Jetboil, etc. Don't forget to add in the plastic carrying case that most people keep their stoves in. My alcohol stove weighs less than 1/2 oz. I also use an aluminum foil wind screen and wire pot stand that combined weigh about 1/2 oz. I keep everything inside the pot so no need for an extra case."

okay, on to stoves

i will completely ignore your piece of shit soda can stove...by your logic, my wood stove is even lighter because all i do is gather branches and twigs and logs wherever i came and cook my food over a fire, so i win

i will, however, give you a low-weight (3oz) soloist stove that HockeyRoman posted and compare it to the 8.5oz MSR simmerlite (naphtha), the 11.5oz MSR whisperlite internationale (gasoline), and the MSR pocket rocket (3oz) ...that gives us 25oz total weight for the alcohol, 33.5oz for the simmerlite, 36.5oz for the whisperlite, and 33oz for the pocket rocket...comes down to 0.52 pints/oz for the alcohol, 0.60 pints/oz for the naphtha, 0.58 pints/oz for the gasoline, and 0.64 pints/oz

you know, what the hell...let's throw your shitty and fragile 1oz system in there and we get 0.57 pints/oz and it's STILL the worst option for efficiency by weight

Quote :

"Mistake #2: are you seriously trumpeting a 3 cent per pint difference? Especially since prices of all fuels fluctuate immensely based on location. Some hostels like to to gouge hikers on the cannister, knowing they're the only place in town that sells them. But Advance Auto Parts everywhere charge $2/bottle for HEET."

you can't say "prices of all fuels fluctuate immensely based on location" and then tout that HEET can be had for $2 bottle at one specific location...at $2/bottle of methanol, you've got $21/lb, so a cost per pint of $0.29...so it only beats out denatured alcohol in cost, but considering i used the average prices for everything else (in that i can find each of those fuels more cheaply but tried to be reasonable), i'll give you half the difference and say it will average $3.50/bottle for a cost per pint of $0.52 (big surprise, it's back to being crap!)

so yeah, i'm seriously trumpeting the inferiority of your supposedly superior method of cooking your food...fuel tabs are the only thing less efficient in both cost to heat water and weight

Quote :

"Mistake #3: alcohol stoves do have a heat adjustment option, I don't have one myself but some people make a "simmer ring" that blocks off some of the flame to lower the heat."

if you're going to use bullshit reasons like as to how my numbers are wrong, then i'm going to trump you again and point out that collecting wood is cheaper and packing just matches and dryer lint is lighter...we both know that the made-at-home stuff (in this situation) simply isn't as good (functionally) as the purpose-built stuff

Quote :

"Mistake #4: you make a bunch of wrong claims that I dispute, and that makes ME the snob? you're just a snob about carrying heavy stuff cause you're too clumsy to "baby" your gear."

did you miss the part where i carry an alcohol stove myself? i do it when i know that i'm going with other people who can back me up if it's too cold, too windy, or too messy (though i'm sure you've never wasted a drop of fuel because you're an expert and your soda can stove is perfect)

perhaps "trail hipster" is a better term for you and your ilk...i certainly don't care WHAT you carry if it makes you happy...but i've demonstrated that it's the just about the least efficient option in cost of fuel and weight efficiency...gasoline is undeniably more readily available and it's only minimally susceptible to the "trail price" gouging you bitch about

Quote :

"Also I forgot to mention the initial cost difference! at quagmire's inflated estimate of 3 cents / pint advantage, it would take 1,000 dinners to make up the $30 cost of a Pocket Rocket vs $0 for a pepsi can stove."

also, realize that some of us aren't poor...i'll happily spend $100 in decent purpose-built gear that will last me for a decade or more, weigh less, and be rugged enough that i don't have to "baby" it (because, you know, accidents to happen to the rest of us poor schmucks, even if they don't happen to you)

to each their own, kid...i truly don't give a crap what you use, but it's sad that you can't accept that it simply isn't the best option for so many people who have researched it far more thoroughly than you have

no hard feelings, though...i'm still more than happy to help out a fellow hiker if i come across one whose shitastic soda can stove has seen better days

Quote :

"If you're talking about thru-hiking, alcohol/HEET is by far the best method because of the constraints around where you stop, how many places carry the fuel, the amount of fuel you have to carry for days and weeks at a time with variable distances. Weight and bulk is very important to thru-hikers."

you've just proved my point...if constraints of where you stop, what fuel is carried, weight, and bulk are the main concerns, gasoline is the obvious winner

i've never looked for naphtha (white gas), so i don't know how prevalent it is...denatured alcohol and HEET are so widely available because a large portion of AT hikers are trail hipsters who take their soda can stoves with them because they're poor and/or proud, not because it makes the most sense when you consider all factors

[Edited on May 9, 2011 at 11:30 AM. Reason : .]

5/9/2011 11:27:40 AM

exactly, if you're going on a 3 day trip you don't care as much about weight/bulk and the quick boil is what you want. Light weight has it's place and I don't use it all the time. shoot when I worked for the Forest Service I once hauled (in addition to my normal gear) 2 packs of Newman-O's, ice cream bars packed in dry ice, and a game of Trivial Pursuit up 1,500 ft of elevation to our base camp

but quagmire's still wrong in his slanderous posts about alcohol.

5/9/2011 11:38:45 AM

Quote :

"by your logic, my wood stove is even lighter because all i do is gather branches and twigs and logs wherever i came and cook my food over a fire, so i win"

actually there are people who use a wood burning stove made out of a tin can. and yes, since you don't have to carry fuel it is the lightest option.

And I said before, if you're out for more than 8 days then the weight/energy (which is cumulative) of other fuels wins out over the equipment weight of alcohol (which is fixed). So sure, your 3 lb gasoline system would be lighter than to boil the same amount of water with alcohol if you were out hiking for what ... twenty days? But when was the last time you were out for even 10 days without a resupply?

and durability... I've met plenty of hikers who have used a single home made alcohol stove for multiple thru hikes. they don't have moving parts, they're so light that dropping it doesn't do any damage, and the only way it could break is if you crush it ... which would also break a Pocket Rocket.

I'll go ahead and post some stuff by people who have done a more scientific analysis since you're unhappy with my experience.

http://hikinghq.net/stoves/stove_compare.html

(the Cat Stove is another type of alcohol stove that performs better than the pepsi can)

http://zenstoves.net/StoveChoices.htm#Efficiency

where the blue alcohol line crosses the other lines is the meal limit where alcohol becomes heavier. It takes about 10 meals for it to pass isobutane, and 28 meals to pass gasoline ("petrol") The weight in this chart includes everything, like fuel bottle and stove weight.

PS ... a "meal" means boiling 2 cups of water. which is what I've always done to make a meal, sorry if that's too confusing for you.



[Edited on May 9, 2011 at 12:19 PM. Reason : added the graph]

5/9/2011 12:04:18 PM

Quote :

"MSR Pocket Rocket Base weight of a MSR is 3 ounces, but add another 4.9 ounces for the empty fuel canister, total of 7.9 ounces for a base. The standard MSR canister has 8oz of fuel. Since the MSR needs .3 ounces of fuel to boil a pint of water based on excellent research done by Russell Ray, I would need about .6 ounces of fuel a day. One canister would boil about 24-27 meals. So, for a start weight of 15.9 ounces, you could go backpacking for 13.5 days using an MSR Pocket Rocket. Cat Stove A Cat Stove with a base weight of 1.8 ounces with a 20oz soda bottle would have a base weight of 2.7 ounces. To boil two pints of water a day, you would need 36 ml of alcohol, weighing 1.0 ounces per day. For 13.5 days, you would need 486 ml of fuel weighing 13.5 ounces. So for a start weight of 16.2 ounces you could go backpacking for 13.5 days using a Cat Stove. Pepsi Stove A Pepsi stove with a base of 1.6 ounces with a 32 ounce water bottle for fuel, would have a base of 3.1 ounces. To boil two pints of water a day, you would need 48 ml of alcohol, weighing 1.3 ounces per day, for 13.5 days, you would need 648 ml of fuel weighing 17.6 ounces. So for a start weight of 20.7 ounces you could go backpacking for 13.5 days using a Pepsi Stove. So, I figured for $35 I was saving .3 ounces of pack weight to replace my Cat Stove with a MSR Pocket Rocket. "

isn't that the opposite of the point you're trying to make?

5/9/2011 12:15:13 PM

^ well you'll see, he goes on to plot out the weight vs number of days, and that for trips of less than 13 days the alcohol is lighter (which is what I've said all along). I don't know about quagmire, but I've never gone out for 13 days without a resupply, and most thru hikers don't do that either

Quote :

"If the base weight of the canister could be reduced to about 3 ounces then I would be very interested in switching to a canister stove. At 3 ounces, the overall weight efficiency for a 2 week trip would shift by a small fraction to the canister stove. But until they figure out how to make a 3 ounce or less fuel canister, the Cat Stove still has the advantage, but barely. For sections shorter than 14 days, the canister weight would have to drop dramatically for the weight difference to be worth it. If a canister would weigh 2 ounces empty, then the Canister would rule even down to 8 day sections."

5/9/2011 12:17:07 PM

seriously though, how can you get your alcohol stove up to 500° so you can properly achieve the Maillard reaction to brown your steak? not to mention enough room to cook kabobs?

this is what i roll with...


sure it's 29lbs, but it provides 8500 BTUs and 129 square-inches! if you're on the trail and something breaks, no worries, Weber will send out a replacement for you!

5/9/2011 12:55:07 PM

Quote :

"quagmire's still wrong in his slanderous posts about alcohol."

quagmire used math to calculate the efficiency (both cost per boil and cost per ounce of weight) of various common fuels using accepted scientifically-valid values used by the entire scientific community and assuming 100% thermal transfer (which is stupid, but the only fair way i can come up with given that there are so many variables that will affect this value), average cost, and average weight

unless i made a mistake in my math (which i will admit is possible, as i am prone to such mistakes), my points aren't "slanderous"...they're a fair and accurate representation of FACTS

Quote :

"So sure, your 3 lb gasoline system would be lighter than to boil the same amount of water with alcohol if you were out hiking for what ... twenty days?"

why are you choosing to be obtuse? for one, i frequently (read: 99% of the time) go hiking with more than one person, and when we do longer hikes, we share equipment...i mean, isn't this whole argument about efficiency? why wouldn't multiple people share a more-efficient system? oh, wait, i remember...alcohol stoves don't lend themselves well to larger batches of food because they, well, suck donkey balls

and even then, why would i use a 20oz bottle and fill it with 20oz of fuel if i only need, say, 11oz? i, for one, only own and use the 11oz version of the MSR bottle, but i was trying to use the same value for all comparisons and since you claimed you use a soda bottle (20oz, i assume, though i guess it could be any variation, including 16.9oz), i tried to match

if you'd thought about this before posting, you'd realize i wasn't suggesting that someone tote along some ridiculously unnecessary amount of fuel...when it comes down to it, though, sharing the stove and fuel weight/usage further increases the efficiency, which is something you can't really do with your soda can stove due to the fact that it would likely run out of alcohol and need to be refilled before boiling multiple meal's worth of water

Quote :

"and durability... I've met plenty of hikers who have used a single home made alcohol stove for multiple thru hikes. they don't have moving parts, they're so light that dropping it doesn't do any damage, and the only way it could break is if you crush it ... which would also break a Pocket Rocket."

are you really saying that a pocket rocket (especially one in the super crazy heavy plastic case that they come with) is just as fragile as a cut-up piece of aluminum can? please.

in any case, SHIT HAPPENS...i'll take something durable as moderate insurance against the unpredictable over something fragile any day

Quote :

"where the blue alcohol line crosses the other lines is the meal limit where alcohol becomes heavier. It takes about 10 meals for it to pass isobutane, and 28 meals to pass gasoline ("petrol") The weight in this chart includes everything, like fuel bottle and stove weight."

the problem with the chart, that which makes me doubt its accuracy (especially within the range of what could be expected to be covered before refueling/restocking food) is this, which they admit is the chart's shortcomings: fuel efficiencies are given as rough estimates and they can very drastically with various homemade systems and personal experience with these stoves

so where are they getting their thermal efficiency values from? as i noted above, i assumed 100% because to assume anything other than a set amount would be unfair...whoever made the chart is making assumptions on thermal efficiencies that may or may not be valid...given their disclaimer, i'm going to assume that they're going to paint alcohol in the most positive light: This web site has an obvious preference towards alcohol stoves and other stoves are mentioned primarily for comparison purposes.

i'm willing to bet they're giving alcohol a higher thermal efficiency than it deserves...if you have evidence to the contrary, please show me...the values i calculated above, in any case, were fair to all fuels and you can't really argue with the fact that alcohol is less efficient in every way

Quote :

"PS ... a "meal" means boiling 2 cups of water. which is what I've always done to make a meal, sorry if that's too confusing for you."

it was too confusing for me because when i cook for myself, i NEVER make more than 1 cup for the actual meal...i've never noticed any of my trailmates using more than a cup for the average meal, but i may have missed it...maybe i'm just able to get by on less than some of you?

Quote :

"isn't that the opposite of the point you're trying to make?"

yeah, she apparently didn't read it...despite the fact that the cat stove is supposedly superior, he even says: So, I think I'm going to buy a MSR Pocket Rocket. The performance as I've seen it is so close, it is worth a try. I've been doing some research, and the GAZ 270 gram cartridge is supposed to weigh 9 ounces, and has 7.8 ounces of fuel. If this is true and it works with the Pocket Rocket, then It definitely meets the above criteria. I'll test it for myself and decide.

i may have missed it if he came back and said it was the worst decision of his life

we can continue to discuss this if you want, but unless you have anything factual to add, i'm going to go ahead take the facts over your opinion, if you don't mind

i haven't really thrown out that alcohol quite likely has the WORST thermal efficiency them all, evidenced by its susceptibility to wind, temperature, and lower specific enthalpy...as i've noted many times, i'm trying to be fair and put them all on equal footing, but the truth is that the complete lack of temperature control on the vast majority of alcohol stoves contributes to its less-than-stellar performance

5/9/2011 2:27:04 PM

wait, do you lose all your trail-cred if you show up to the AT shelter with anything but an alcohol tin-can stove?

5/9/2011 2:41:43 PM

Quote :

"in any case, SHIT HAPPENS...i'll take something durable as moderate insurance against the unpredictable over something fragile any day"

in case SHIT HAPPENS, isn't that what flint and lint are for along with some wood? i can't stand the "what if my stove breaks" argument... i'd rather carry a isobutane/propane stove and carry some flint than to change my cooking equipment out for alcohol because i'm afraid a moving part may break.

[Edited on May 9, 2011 at 2:44 PM. Reason : .]

5/9/2011 2:43:24 PM

Quote :

"wait, do you lose all your trail-cred if you show up to the AT shelter with anything but an alcohol tin-can stove?"

according to the zen stoves site (the one with alcohol stove bias that Nerdchick got her graph from): In the US, there is a cult following of ultralight hikers who use homemade alcohol stoves. They are an unusual bunch with very odd trail names who often wear homemade gear and are mistaken for the homeless as they travel across America.

i think it's cool that they're making fun of themselves (and rightly so), but there is an element of truth in your question...if you're caught using anything but a homemade alcohol stove, you probably aren't allowed into their cult

Quote :

"in case SHIT HAPPENS, isn't that what flint and lint are for along with some wood? i can't stand the "what if my stove breaks" argument... i'd rather carry a isobutane/propane stove and carry some flint than to change my cooking equipment out for alcohol because i'm afraid a moving part may break."

i'm with you in this...which is why i don't tote around a second stove

but that doesn't mean i want to rely on the simplest man-made device that is extremely fragile when i can rely on a still relatively simple man-made device that is magnitudes more durable

as you said, my flint, steel, dryer lint, and hatchet are my backup

5/9/2011 3:01:07 PM

Quote :

"i was actually on the Art Loeb this weekend, too. We stayed a little past the Butter Gap shelter. You guys run across any bear?"

Didn't see any bear, didn't see many hikers either. We passed by a whole group of insane trail runners, a few hikers going the other way, and tons at Black Balsam Knob (like usual)...but no bears. Saw PLENTY of snakes!!

5/9/2011 4:06:43 PM

I done caused a ruckus up in here. I am truly sorry.

On a lighter note, Trail Days is this coming weekend in Damascus. Anyone else planning on going?

5/9/2011 4:15:38 PM

Quote :

"for one, i frequently (read: 99% of the time) go hiking with more than one person, and when we do longer hikes, we share equipment...i mean, isn't this whole argument about efficiency? why wouldn't multiple people share a more-efficient system? "

well maybe you should've said this in the first place. I've said all along that for a large number of meals, the cumulative effect of a more efficient fuel will catch up to the weight benefit of an alcohol stove/bottle being lighter. Guess I was just supposed to "figure out" that you make 20 meals every time you go backpacking

But for a thru hike, which is what HockeyRoman is doing, I have never seen more than 2 people sharing a stove. And they're usually a couple like husband and wife or boyfriend and girlfriend. Otherwise you can't count on keeping a group together - people do different miles, or take zeroes, or quit the trail.

Of course alcohol has the lowest efficiency in terms of BTU/lb, but that's not what thru hikers care about. They care about the total weight that you have to carry from town to town, which is about 4 days. Alcohol is the clear victor in that situation. Who gives a crap that you could make 20 meals with your 2lb Whisperlite. You're still carrying 2lbs! I'll take my 6oz kitchen with 5oz of fuel any day.

5/9/2011 5:30:32 PM

^ What she said. I don't think I've seen a thru-hiker carry a whisperlight in well over 10 years. My wife and I share an alcohol stove, but I've seen other couples using something any number of isobutane stoves. Honestly, we cook on fire at least half the time now, and probably would if we were to do another thru-hike sometime. It's at least, if not outright easier, to find denatured alcohol/HEET than any other fuel in a trail town these days.

YMMV, rock on, whatever floats your boat...

5/9/2011 8:16:28 PM

too many AT elitists

5/9/2011 9:01:37 PM

Quote :

"well maybe you should've said this in the first place."

derp derp whether i'm cooking for 1 person or 10, it doesn't change the fact that my math is unarguably (at least, so far) correct while you've got nothing but your opinion derp derp

Quote :

"It's at least, if not outright easier, to find denatured alcohol/HEET than any other fuel in a trail town these days."

except, of course, gasoline...which is more efficient is significantly cheaper

Quote :

"whatever floats your boat..."

exactly...which is why it's so funny that Nerdchick is so upset that people (me) don't take her silly opinion as gospel...there's not a single person on here that give's a rat's left nut what she (or anyone else, for that matter) uses...if someone wants to tote along a 4-burner propane stove, more power to them...i'm just trying to keep her from passing along her fanaticism as anything more than her biased opinion

*shrug*

IN OTHER NEWS, we're planning on doing mount mitchell in june (possibly july if we can't swing june)

5/9/2011 9:21:50 PM

whatever, quagmire's the one being judgmental. He won't shut up about how I'm a crazy-eyed cult member cause I would dare to make my own gear instead of letting a Chinese factory do it like any sane American would.

I'm all about hike your own hike! If quagmire wants to chop down trees with his hatchet then go for it. But he's been telling lies ... and that I can't stand for!! He's been mis-representing alcohol stoves as heavier and more expensive, when that's clearly not the case. Also after complaining about the cost of alcohol he then went on to brag about how he's "not poor" and doesn't actually care about cost.

5/9/2011 9:35:34 PM

^^ wow for someone who doesn't care you sure did write a lot of dissertations on the subject

how do you not understand this ... for a trip with < 20 meals, a whisperlite weighs MORE because you have to carry the heavier stove and bottle!!! how do you not understand this ... who cares about BTU's if you're lugging a 12oz stove that's required to obtain those BTU's.

5/9/2011 9:38:18 PM

Quote :

"But he's been telling lies ... and that I can't stand for!!"

i guess this is where we part ways...until you have something other than your personal opinion, i'm not really sure you have anything of value to contribute to this discussion

in any case, you'll stand for it because you don't really have any choice, kid

Quote :

"how do you not understand this ... for a trip with < 20 meals, a whisperlite weighs MORE because you have to carry the heavier stove and bottle!!! how do you not understand this"

first, please stop bringing up the whisperlite, okay? that was ONE example of many, and was used primarily to illustrate that per ounce of weight, gasoline is more efficient...if anything, the biggest competition to your pathetic tin can alcohol stove is isobutane...if you want to start crying about all the lies, pick that one, okay? makes you seem less desperate

second, i'm going to point this out to you one more time...you have NOTHING to back up your statement...it's your OPINION...do you know what the means? you linked to a site THAT SELLS ALCOHOL STOVES, admits that they're biased, and admits that they simply made up numbers for comparison purposes...that's not evidence, that's utter bullshit

my assertions are based on FACTS...i gave your precious soda can the benefit of the doubt by assuming that it can perform as efficiently as every other stove type and it STILL failed

give it up, alcohol stoves are cool and they have their place (if you paid attention, you'd notice i said several times that i take my alcohol stove with me quite frequently)...but unlike you, i recognize that they are quite limited in their abilities...stop being a snob and just leave it at the realization that you're a trail snob (or hipster, if you prefer)

[Edited on May 9, 2011 at 10:07 PM. Reason : never mind, that's mean]

5/9/2011 9:39:27 PM

we use a 2.7oz coleman F1 ultralight stove. got it for around $20 a couple of years ago. works really well, weighs almost nothing. iirc though, you can only use those fuel canisters like the one in the pic. i think.


[Edited on May 9, 2011 at 10:06 PM. Reason : ]

5/9/2011 10:05:23 PM

^ yeah, that's isobutane...and that looks very similar to the MSR pocket rocket (i got mine for $20, too...they go on sale for $20 all the time at REI)

5/9/2011 10:08:14 PM

we got this at a camp store here in rocky mount that was going out of business. we bought a shit ton of those little fuel cubes and a bunch of random other crap

5/9/2011 10:09:21 PM

so you're admitting that your beloved gasoline, although it has more energy, is heavier?

you want science, fine. if you can find anyone other than yourself who believes that gasoline is the best fuel then let me know.

http://www.howardjohnson.name/Backpacking/Stove/Stove_notes.htm

(near the top of this page are experiments done with 0.5-0.6 oz of fuel in a can stove. All but one were able to bring 2 pints to a rolling boil on this much fuel)

here's the cannister data

Quote :

"5) Canister calculations (MSR Pocket Rocket Isopropane fuel canisters): Total canister weight (conversion to ounces): (227g/canister) / (28.35 g/oz) = 8.0 oz/canister Canister burn rate (Conversion to Oz of fuel / pints boiled water): (100 g fuel) / (6.65 liters boiled water) 1) (100 g fuel) / (28.35 oz/g) = 3.527 oz 2) (6.65 l boiled water) * (1.051 quarts/leter) * (2 pints/quart) = (14.06 pints boiled water) Amount of fuel / boiled water: (3.527 oz fuel) / (14.06 pints boiled water) = (.25 oz of fuel) / (pint boiled water)"

So a fuel cannister that weighs 8oz can boil 14 pints of water. (this is generous in my experience, which you initially accused me of not having and then later said it didn't matter anyway) Clearly the cannister has the efficiency advantage in that it takes only 0.25oz to boil a pint instead of 0.5 or more for alcohol. But add in 4.5oz for the stove + plastic case, and this system weighs 12.5 oz to boil 14 pints.

Any crappily made alcohol stove can match this (12.5 oz for stove + bottle + fuel to boil 14 pints) and most are better. The stoves (pepsi can, cat stove, penny stove, etc) all weigh less than .5 oz, and can boil a pint on 0.75 oz or less of alcohol. The best use only 0.5 oz. Are you disputing this? You accused me before of not taking conditions into account, but those also affect the cannister (it'll be less efficient if you turn the flame on higher, for example). And a wind screen, priming pan, etc can all improve performance in the cold/wind and only add grams to the weight.

Would I use an alcohol stove in the winter, no. Would I use it on a 15 day trip, no. But for a short outing it's clearly the lightest!

PS ... Zen Stoves (one of my earlier links) doesn't actually sell alcohol stoves, although they do have links to people that do. It's like an encyclopedia of the different stoves and instructions on how to make them. But you're right, they're probably part of Big Alcohol and can't be trusted.



[Edited on May 9, 2011 at 10:37 PM. Reason : PS]

5/9/2011 10:19:31 PM

In related minimalist news, I saw a guy hiking barefoot with a large pack on. Is this becoming common?

5/9/2011 10:27:42 PM

PPS ... I just checked MSR's website and according to them, 8oz of fuel can boil 16 liters (33 pints)

http://cascadedesigns.com/msr/stoves/fast-and-light-stoves/pocketrocket/product

So a 4oz container should be able to boil 16 pints rather than the 14 found above ... probably due to the differences in efficiency at home. Either way, a total 12.5 oz alcohol system can easily match a 16 pint boil. If yours can't, then maybe it's cause your factory made stove doesn't work as well?

5/9/2011 10:42:45 PM

^^ i saw a guy doing that, too, but he seemed to be in a hurry and so were we, so i didn't get to talk to him

when i lived near lake lynn, i used to walk my dog barefoot around the lake every day...for a while there, my soles were thick enough that i could walk on gravel comfortably

i don't know that i'd ever give up footwear altogether, though...i wear my chaco sandals a lot, but i got them a size bigger for toe protection...i've never owned a pair of boots for ankle stabilization, but that's about as minimalist as i'm going to get

5/10/2011 6:52:14 AM

OK I'll try to make it simple since quagmire just wants to insult me and doesn't actually care about the facts.

Let's say it's cold/windy out. This guy uses 1oz to boil two cups on a 28F/windy day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lphULfNwpN0

There's a cold 5 day trip, using a thru hiker scenario of one guy, one stove. the alcohol user carries a dry weight of 3.5 oz (including stove, fuel bottle, pot stand, and wind screen) with a fuel weight of 5oz. That's 8.5 oz total. The MSR Pocket Rocket with a 4oz cannister has a total weight of 12.0 oz (that's with the total cannister weight, stove, and carrying case).

Please explain how the alcohol user is carrying more weight. Of course the Pocket Rocket can make twice as many meals with that fuel but who cares ... you're out for 5 days, you only need to boil 5 pints! If you can't explain this then I guess I'm right???

5/10/2011 9:14:06 AM

^ i think he is just trying to move on in the conversation. i think we are all tired of hearing about alcohol stoves

5/10/2011 9:17:29 AM

yes, we are all tired. just please drop it.

5/10/2011 9:53:56 AM

anyone ever done mt. mitchell to celo knob (http://www.trimbleoutdoors.com/ViewTrip/714040) or woody ridge to mt. mitchell (http://www.trimbleoutdoors.com/ViewTrip/716350)?

5/10/2011 10:05:33 AM

Looks like a better hike than my last one at Mt. Mitchell...

<rant>I hiked down to the Commissary Ridge Campground (on the Mountains-To-Sea Trail) and it was a shit hole, it was during the summer and we got there and found it's a group campsite combined with horse camping and it was covered in horse shit, contaminated water and about a trillion gnats, mosquitoes, and No-see-ums. It was the only time I turned around and hiked back to my car because I refused to camp there... oh and my dog rolled around in that shit. Worst camping experience of my life.</rant>

The ridge hike does look good though.

5/10/2011 10:56:28 AM

^^^ yeah I've also had enough of his petty personal attacks. glad this is over!

5/10/2011 4:44:29 PM

anybody have a favorite backpacking route around the Greyson Highlands area?

heading out there Monday for a couple nights, weather looks like it'll suck, but should be awesome regardless

5/14/2011 11:27:46 PM

^ i've done this one a couple of times in the past 5-6 years and love it

http://www.trimbleoutdoors.com/ViewTrip/289476

this was a couple of years ago when it decided to sleet the entire time

5/15/2011 8:37:24 AM

NICE....I want to head to the Highlands for July 4th long weekend...any favorite spots I should hit up?

5/15/2011 11:11:09 AM

I am trying to figure out which compression sack size to use for the following two sleeping bags. Since they are both down I know I should be able to get them pretty small. Any help in this regard will be super helpful. Thanks!

Summer bag:
http://www.rei.com/product/778156/rei-halo-40-sleeping-bag

Winter bag:
http://www.rei.com/product/778167/rei-halo-10-sleeping-bag-womens (Yes, I know this is a women's bag. Keeping in mind that I got the long version. It has more insulation then the men's bag.)

These are the compression sacks that I am looking at. I just need to know which size would work best.
http://www.prolitegear.com/granite_gear_air_compressor_color.html


Also, the chica and I are looking to go to Grandfather Mtn in two weekends. I've never been up there and although she has, she doesn't remember anywhere nearby to camp. Does anyone have any experience or know of any places to set up shop overnight somewhere around there?

[Edited on May 19, 2011 at 3:49 PM. Reason : .]

5/19/2011 3:42:42 PM

Isn't two weekends memorial day?

I imagine its gonna be crowded

5/19/2011 3:56:25 PM

^^ just buy one medium and one large bag from REI, try them out and take back the one you don't need. My 35 degree synthetic bag fits fine in the medium and my tent fits fine in the large. The medium compresses down to the size of a football, the large compresses down to the size of a soccer ball

5/19/2011 4:02:56 PM