Ok so I'm a gullible idiot apparently, let's get that out of the way first.

I bought my first dirt bike on craigslist the other day. Paid $2,000 for a bike that was advertised as "kicks right up and idles and runs perfect". I went out to meet the guy, and sure enough the bike started on the first kick. I didn't know how to ride and didn't want to mess something up I hadn't bought yet, so I had him take it up and down the street and it ran great. Paid the money in cash.

Got it home and it never started again. Took it down to SC where I was going to leave it (lots of trails at the grandparents place). Changed the plug, checked the fluids, etc. Still wouldn't start. Took it to a mechanic, who said that basically the kid had rigged the bike to run for 30 minutes tops by pre-mixing starting fluid (ether) and gas, knowing that after running it the engine would seize. There is catastrophic damage the the whole head, which would need to be replaced at a minimum, costing at least $1,100 for used parts + labor, or $1,850 for new parts + labor. This is assuming the bottom end is in tact.

I noticed the guy owned a yard related business so I googled his phone number and came up with his full name, his business address, business name, etc. I was thinking about having somebody call/email to have him come give an estimate and when he does, have a Sheriff serve him with papers for civil court.

I have:
- text messages leading up to the sale of the bike
- the original craigslist ad saying the bike ran perfectly
- my bank statements showing that I withdrew the $2,000
- can get a note form my mechanic corroborating the fact that I never got to ride the thing and his assessment of the situation

Could I successfully sue?

At the very least I'm hoping I can scare him into giving me my money back to avoid paying for mechanics fees, "attorney fees", etc. if I win.

any thoughts on how to improve my case, or whether this is just a waste of time?

5/20/2012 2:35:54 PM

I have no idea...but keep us posted.

5/20/2012 2:42:00 PM

it sounds like you haven't even told the seller yet

do that first, report back

5/20/2012 2:55:56 PM

my recently graduated, not yet ABA lawyer friend told me to do the same.

I had only contacted him to say that I couldn't start it when I first got it home.

The question is how much do I reveal? If he knows I'm on to him it's going to be difficult to serve him

5/20/2012 3:00:45 PM

if you know his business address, which you apparently do, it shouldn't be that difficult to serve him

5/20/2012 3:08:52 PM

my Campbell Law friend pulled his record and got all of his addresses, and his criminal history which includes injury to property, intoxicated and disruptive conduct, drinking underage, probation violation, etc. not that it really matters but still

5/20/2012 3:44:42 PM

I'd say don't worry about not being able to serve him, but it might be better to send him a demand letter first in writing, certified/registered mail, telling him to pay up or you're gonna sue. That may very well be all it takes to get your money back. It's certainly cheaper and easier than going to court. Just be sure to follow through if you threaten him.

5/20/2012 3:50:55 PM

should I text him first or just go straight to demand letter?

5/20/2012 3:56:28 PM

Certified letter.

5/20/2012 4:00:05 PM

I don't think it would hurt to try to trick him into admitting what he did in some recorded medium; either by recording a phone conversation or through texting. That would certainly help your case if it went to court. Some people are just dumb enough to admit they fucked you and tell you to take them to court if you have a problem with it. Especially if you piss them off a little first.

Demand letter = coming out of the gates swinging. Probably a good call for someone with a history like this, but odds are the money is already spent and he couldn't pay you back if he wanted to. People like this will probably just let it ride and deal with the consequences later. Even if you get a judgment against him you might never see a dime.

Can you really prove what he did? Will your mechanic friend testify and will his testimony hold up in court? Does he have any certifications that might qualify him as an expert on the subject?

If you really want to put pressure on him to do the right thing you might want to start thinking about how you can affect his bottom line. Maybe his clients wouldn't be too pleased to know the man who is spending time around their homes has a criminal history and is involved in shady business dealings. Maybe he would be more cooperative if he were concerned about losing some of those clients.

If you play hardball there may be some fallout though. Better be prepared for it if you go that route.

[Edited on May 20, 2012 at 4:27 PM. Reason : l]

5/20/2012 4:24:34 PM

Pro tip: before you buy an auto on CL, make sure it's stone cold.

5/20/2012 4:35:20 PM

I went with a text first. had my campbell friend review it. he hasn't responded and it's been about 45 minutes.

Quote :

"Hey this is xxx, I bought a 20xx Brand/number dirt bike from you on May 11th, 2012. I never got it to start when I got it home, even after talking to you about the issue. I took it to a mechanic and he said that there was severe damage to the bike that occurred prior to my owning it (since I never even got it to start) to the cylinder head, valve train, cams, and possibly even the bottom end. IT will cost extra shop time to verify the condition of the bottom end. The top end will all need to be replaced for it to run as far as I know currently, and that is in excess of $1,500. I would like to resolve this amicably and trade back so I can just get my money back since the bike was advertised as "runs perfect". I have also paid shop time to diagnose the problem, but would be willing to forgo that if you'll just race back. I can give you my mechanic's information if you'd like to verify this"

Quote :

"Can you really prove what he did? Will your mechanic friend testify and will his testimony hold up in court? Does he have any certifications that might qualify him as an expert on the subject?"

contacte the mechanic. he's emailing me his professional opinion, he went to motorcycle repair college, and he's going to say that there's no way that I could have done that kind of damage in the time that I've owned it. not sure about getting him to testify, but I could probably pay him $200 to come up from Wilmington to do so, but I'm not really sure. I'm hoping the email will be sufficient. I also included in the text to the kid that I could provide him my mechanic's information to verify.

If he doesn't respond, I'll send the official letter. If not within a few days, I'll subpoena him with the Sheriff's office.

[Edited on May 20, 2012 at 4:47 PM. Reason : text]

5/20/2012 4:43:26 PM

Quote :

"If you really want to put pressure on him to do the right thing you might want to start thinking about how you can affect his bottom line. Maybe his clients wouldn't be too pleased to know the man who is spending time around their homes has a criminal history and is involved in shady business dealings. Maybe he would be more cooperative if he were concerned about losing some of those clients. "

This is a really bad idea. You should not do this. Your law school friend could also get into a good bit of trouble for providing you with someone's criminal history.

To throw a bit of cold water on your fire here, these types of claims are hard to prove, and it'll be costly, which is why a lot of people don't pursue them. Your best bet is to ask him for a refund, instead of accusing him of fraud right off the bat.

Did you keep a copy of the ad? Did it specifically say he "guarantees" anything? Or was it a buyer beware purchase?

And for what it's worth, if you do end up going to court over this, you can't use that email. If you end up going to court, I wouldn't rely on the advice of TWW attorneys or your friend in law school.

[Edited on May 20, 2012 at 4:47 PM. Reason : ]

5/20/2012 4:45:46 PM

PM sent.

5/20/2012 4:49:25 PM

folks watch too much damn judge judy, joe brown, etc.

5/20/2012 4:57:09 PM

No offense but who doesn't get a car/dirtbike/whatever checked out by a certified mechanic before handing over $2000?


I sold a car on Craigslist and the buyer showed up with a mechanic friend of his to check out the car.

5/20/2012 5:02:47 PM

most mechanics are really tied up this time of year due to the beginning of the summer. the guy I found runs a small shop out of Wilmington, closer to where I wanted to keep the bike. I called a few mechanics to ask what I should look for, and I checked all of that. Even when I brought the mechanic the bike he said it looked good and was probably nothing big, just a valve adjustment but he couldn't tell without going into the bike what the problem was. As far as a buyer, I did everything that I could at the time, saw it run, and bought the bike. Like I said in the first line, maybe I'm gullible or naive in this situation, but I did what I could.

5/20/2012 5:13:27 PM

Caveat emptor

5/20/2012 10:13:03 PM

Quote :

"No offense but who doesn't get a car/dirtbike/whatever checked out by a certified mechanic before handing over $2000?"

In this case I do not think that would have helped, not everything about a motor is apparent just by a visual inspection or listening to it run. Most people are not going to let you take their thing they are trying to sell apart when you have not even committed to buy it, and then you would have to pay someone to do that, even then there is risk.

If all this is true and the seller purposely deceived him then he will probably have a good case, the only problem is going to be proving it all. If I were that seller I would claim it was running when it left the driveway and it was an as-is sale. Flat out deny putting anything in the motor that did not go there.

I am assuming the argument will be why would the buyer purposely ruin his own dirt bike? The seller is going to say maybe he did not do it on purpose, maybe he just flooded it and stupidly did that trying to get it to start and did not know any better.

$2000 is worth fighting over, but you have to be able to prove your case, and you will definitely need whoever figured out what he did to come testify as to what he found and exactly how he knows.

The filing fee for small claims court is only $65.

5/21/2012 8:09:16 AM

Since when did text messaging take the place of certified letters?

5/21/2012 8:09:41 AM

make sure the mechanic is not filling you with a bunch of shit.....

because they can be hard to start... can foul plugs, etc. especially if they have sat for a while. also, you'd look like a complete dumbass if someone familiar with those bikes hopped on it and fired it up with a few kicks.....


and $1850 if a fucking joke price for a rebuild.... again, i'd get a second mechanic's opinion before you waste any more time.

[Edited on May 21, 2012 at 8:35 AM. Reason : -]

5/21/2012 8:34:28 AM

^^ This.

Your first contact with him should have been in the form of a demand letter...preferably from an attorney (you just got out of law school, you should have a friend that would do this for free).

There's a happy medium with these situations. You don't want to come on weak at first with texts and calls hoping they will be a good person and remedy the situation. This fucker sold you a lemon...ON PURPOSE. You think he's going to cave in to a text message? Really? What did they teach you in law school?

You also don't need to come out guns-a-blazin by filing in Small Claims because it might not be necessary and you don't want to waste the time and money (and you might not win).

Demand letter...then wait and see. Negative or no response, then go ahead and take him to court. I think you've got a decent case.

[Edited on May 21, 2012 at 8:36 AM. Reason : ..]

5/21/2012 8:35:37 AM

Quote :

"Your law school friend could also get into a good bit of trouble for providing you with someone's criminal history."

Legal trouble for providing someone with access to publicly available information?

http://webapps6.doc.state.nc.us/opi/offendersearch.do?method=view

Not so much.

5/21/2012 10:26:08 AM

did you both not sign a bill of sale? the few motorized vehicles (2 cars, a motorcycle, and a 50cc scooter) i've sold have always had two bills of sale that we both sign (one for each of us, obviously) in addition to the title transfer...the bill of sale ALWAYS mentions that they vehicles are as-is with no warranty expressed or implied

not that i've ever done anything underhanded when selling them, but who knows if it'll work the next day (via the new owner doing something stupid, an accident, unforeseen problems, etc) and i certainly wouldn't want to be held accountable

i truly sympathize with you...i'd be so furious and really just want to fuck this guy up for screwing you over (if that's in fact what he did)...i'll come back for updates

5/21/2012 10:30:47 AM

^^Law students have access to criminal records for free, and through databases not available for public use. The terms of use for those databases specifically state they should not be used for any reason other than school research.

And they pull up a whole lot more than just convictions.

[Edited on May 21, 2012 at 10:41 AM. Reason : ]

5/21/2012 10:40:36 AM

I look through the database all the time. Then I send the info to the people I know and tell them to pay me monies or a I will e-blast the info and post it on facebook. They bitch and tell me that its blackmail. I tell them to:

5/21/2012 10:53:18 AM

It's a dirtbike. It takes an hour at most to rebuild the top end of the engine. Quit being a pussy, buy the parts on ebay and just fix the thing yourself.

Then burn the guy's house down.

5/21/2012 12:32:01 PM

^what he said

5/21/2012 12:45:25 PM

If he doesn't know how to ride it I'm gonna bet he doesn't know how to rebuild it...but how complicated could it be?

5/21/2012 1:26:41 PM

Quote :

"Ok so I'm a gullible idiot apparently, let's get that out of the way first."

That first line is basically the end of the thread.... Not saying that it is a bad thing, though. We are all retarded at various points in our lives. You put your trust in humanity and it failed you. You can ask the kid to not be a douche, but it appears he was and will continue to be... Legally - it will just end up costing you more for most likely nothing in return.

Recommendation: Get the tww garage to fix it for cheaper than a lawyer.

5/21/2012 1:44:58 PM

Quote :

"Legal trouble for providing someone with access to publicly available information? http://webapps6.doc.state.nc.us/opi/offendersearch.do?method=view Not so much."

If he accessed ACIS, NCIC, CJLEADS or AOC/CCH, he most definitely violated the law.

5/21/2012 1:48:52 PM

Quote :

"It's a dirtbike. It takes an hour at most to rebuild the top end of the engine. Quit being a pussy, buy the parts on ebay and just fix the thing yourself."

it's a four stroke, so it's a bit more labor and cost intensive than a two stroke. I don't have the mechanical repertoire to feel comfortable doing much more than basic maintenance right now. it's not even the shop time that's expensive, it's the parts. look up a new cylinder head - that's about 600 new or 350 if you can find a used one but you're still taking a risk. the valves, valve springs, cams, retainers, etc. also add up. the mechanic is a good guy, and has a degree in motorcycle repair. he certainly knows his shit and his rates are extremely low. I called mechanics all around Myrtle Beach and Raleigh and they can't even get the bike into the shop until mid June at the earliest.

this isn't about the money so much as it is about a guy that knowingly scams people on craigslist, that he is my age and lied to my face when I told him this was a big purchase for me and I needed to make sure it was reliable. I'm pretty pissed off that I paid $2,000 and never got to ride the thing ONCE let alone start it.

I am having an attorney send a demand letter tomorrow if he doesn't respond to my texts/facebook messages. The attorney I spoke with thinks I have a good case for fraud. I have my friend that was with me at the time of purchase to vouch for the money spent, and that he repeatedly told me it needed nothing. the ad even stated that it ran perfectly.

I know that this is going to be an uphill battle, but if it at least hassles him in some way then I'll be happy.

Quote :

"Then burn the guy's house down."

I could seriously fuck this guy over illegally. I could easily respond to one of his lawn service craiglist ads (he's the only one that works at this "company") and have him come out to some random location for an "estimate" and have some shadier folks I know kick the shit out of him. I've thought of that, but I'm 25 years old and this isn't high school. I'd like to handle it legally, and like an adult and even if I lose the $2,000 it's a lesson learned.

[Edited on May 21, 2012 at 2:39 PM. Reason : . ]

5/21/2012 2:36:21 PM

I'm surprised you haven't got your mom and dad to intervene.

5/21/2012 3:17:53 PM

Quote :

"I could seriously fuck this guy over illegally. I could easily respond to one of his lawn service craiglist ads (he's the only one that works at this "company") and have him come out to some random location for an "estimate" and have some shadier folks I know kick the shit out of him. I've thought of that, but I'm 25 years old and this isn't high school. I'd like to handle it legally, and like an adult and even if I lose the $2,000 it's a lesson learned. "

i especially wouldn't go that route now, seeing as you posted all about it on teh interwebs.

5/21/2012 3:35:38 PM

Better hope somebody else doesn't beat the shit out of him. Guys like this usually get that at some point.

5/21/2012 3:37:15 PM

Quote :

"i especially wouldn't go that route now, seeing as you posted all about it on teh interwebs."

Nice post. I'm sure he hasn't thought of that yet.

5/21/2012 3:47:50 PM

Quote :

"That first line is basically the end of the thread.... Not saying that it is a bad thing, though. We are all retarded at various points in our lives"

give the guy a break. he saw the thing start on first kick then roar up and down the street. he's just unlucky.

do people drain every manual car's transmission and check for saw dust before buying? no.

5/21/2012 4:06:16 PM

called and talked to him. he's adamant that it was a good bike, says he thinks the mechanic is just trying to screw me (which I don't think is the case at all) to get extra shop time and go through him for parts. Keeps saying he wants to work it out to avoid court but rejects any middle ground I try to meet him on. Said I'd have the bike brought to Raleigh and taken to a mutually agreed upon mechanic and we could split the cost, said I'd take back $1500 for the bike. he's not having any of it. Recorded the whole 18 minute conversation and was careful not to say anything to weaken my position legally. I got him to admit to a lot of stuff that could help my case, although it's nothing overwhelming - just that nothing I could have done between getting it from his house to mine could have caused such serious damage (I stride to start it as soon as I got home and called when it wouldn't), etc.

[Edited on May 21, 2012 at 8:33 PM. Reason : clarity]

5/21/2012 8:32:31 PM

Quote :

"No offense but who doesn't get a car/dirtbike/whatever checked out by a certified mechanic before handing over $2000? "

You'd be surprised. I've sold a couple cars on Craigslist and never had the people do more than kick the tires.

5/21/2012 9:01:06 PM

I sold my 01 Grand Cherokee to a guy who paid in cash ($10k) and didnt do anything except crawl under the car (skidplated front to back) and act like he was looking around, and then start it up.

5/21/2012 9:12:54 PM

yeah I mean I had a list of stuff to look at from MX forums online and did all of that, saw it run strong, not much else I could do. I had a really small window to use the van to pick it up and also finding a mechanic to come out that could do more than what I did, and assuming he'd allow something invasive, was a slim chance at best. even when I took the bike to the mechanic he walked around it for 5-10 mins and said it was probably nothing but a dirty carb and maybe a valve adjustment at most. turns out when he got the cylinder head off it was much more.

5/21/2012 10:06:08 PM

could've smelled the gas in the tank. ether in the tank would be pretty easy to smell.

5/21/2012 10:14:43 PM

Quote :

"Recorded the whole 18 minute conversation and was careful not to say anything to weaken my position legally. I got him to admit to a lot of stuff that could help my case, although it's nothing overwhelming"

I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure this is a felony in NC.

http://www.rcfp.org/can-we-tape/north-carolina

[Edited on May 22, 2012 at 8:18 AM. Reason : v ahh]

5/22/2012 8:13:01 AM

^

Quote :

"I'm no lawyer"

Don't need to be one to get this, just literate. It's in the first sentence:

Quote :

"Without the consent of at least one party to the communication,"

All you need is one...in this case, the OP. This has been brought up a million times, I don't know how people keep getting it wrong.

You can't tape other people's conversations (in which you aren't involved). But you can tape whatever the fuck you want if you are in the conversation.


[Edited on May 22, 2012 at 8:21 AM. Reason : .]

5/22/2012 8:14:47 AM

^^

5/22/2012 8:39:42 AM

fuck off, i misread. my bad.

5/22/2012 8:57:36 AM

this is why I use fake names, and throw away cellphones for people who can't understand...

5/22/2012 8:57:50 AM

Quote :

"fuck off, i misread. my bad. I'm dumb."

5/22/2012 9:04:34 AM

lol, you could never make me feel dumb. sorry bro.

5/22/2012 9:12:42 AM

Yep, NC is a 1-party state and Federal is also 1-party. That means you can also record calls over state lines even if the other state is a 2-party state.

5/22/2012 9:13:38 AM