d'oh

[Edited on August 30, 2012 at 9:51 AM. Reason : page 3]

8/30/2012 9:51:36 AM

In the interest of full disclosure the guy advocating clean eating is somewhat overweight. BUT, I've only really been getting on it in the last couple months and still make frequent exceptions in the name of convenience or "special occasion." Even so, I feel much better and am losing weight just by virtue of the quality of food I'm eating. Just a heads up to those of you like me that aren't fat-fat but need that extra push to get to where you want to be, look into it.

I've started lifting regularly again so we'll see if I net 0 initially with fat loss and muscle gain


sorry, /blog

8/30/2012 10:00:01 AM

there's a preponderance of studies indicating that a calorie is a calorie. however, fiber-rich foods help one reach satiety with a lot less damage. If I'm going to eat something terrible like tortellini, I literally cover at least 80% of my plate with salad. and I have to put the leftovers up before we eat so that I don't pick at them after dinner as I'm putting things away and making lunches. but, I'm a former binge eater (duh) and maybe most people don't have that problem. One binge could wreck weeks of calorie cutting.

8/30/2012 10:04:05 AM

Quote :

"just make sure it's from clean and natural sources. Not a hard concept, but not easy to pull off in today's population centers."

Harris Teeter, Food Lion, EVERY grocery store for that matter makes the fresh produce section the very first thing you see when you walk in there. Yes, there are real food deserts, but a food desert is characterized by a lack of grocery stores.

Eating out-of-season stuff is fantastic for us. I don't think anyone has a valid claim against bananas for putting too much sugar in their system, and those are the one of the cheapest calorie sources you can buy. Bananas are completely unnatural to eat here and fantastically great for our health.

Quote :

"people in the 50s were all about some processed food. however, the generation before them was a) super fucking religious and tuned in to luxury = sin, and many of them almost starved to death in the great depression. In modern times serving sizes are completely out of whack and there's no good example of proper serving size anywhere."

I think the problem goes deeper than this. It's not just about serving size, it's about mentalities regarding the physical delivery of food. Ask coke to give a smaller serving size, they'll give you a plastic bottle that's yet smaller and charge you about the same amount for it. The incentives for serving size are obvious. We live in a company-to-eater world, and the company manages an efficient production chain for which the main overhead is the retail counter. It's obvious to give the consumer a larger cup. Downsizing portion sizes is IMO mutually exclusive with the economics of the production chains today.

A large difference between the pre-60s era was probably the management of food on a more community/family level. I'm totally making this up, but I bet you that way more people ate at company cafeterias then. Our individualistic culture has shifted the task of shopping for food to the individual, and the community options have become less normal and less economic.

8/30/2012 10:04:24 AM

not trying to single you out, its a bpage full of hypris green jay giving advice?

she moves to canada and now feels comfortable bashing fat americans? give me a break

im not trying to single you out, its a thread full of hypocrites that praise bojangles and eastern NC BBQ day after day...burgers...wings...cookout shakes day after day

i would LOVE to see your clean bills of health

[Edited on August 30, 2012 at 10:12 AM. Reason : e]

8/30/2012 10:08:40 AM

Quote :

"Harris Teeter, Food Lion, EVERY grocery store for that matter makes the fresh produce section the very first thing you see when you walk in there. Yes, there are real food deserts, but a food desert is characterized by a lack of grocery stores. Eating out-of-season stuff is fantastic for us. I don't think anyone has a valid claim against bananas for putting too much sugar in their system, and those are the one of the cheapest calorie sources you can buy. Bananas are completely unnatural to eat here and fantastically great for our health."

See my earlier response to Jmoney524, namely

"You can certainly make MUCH better choices at these stores than shopping in the boxed/canned/shelf-lifed isles but it's still not going to give you what eating simple clean and local will."

Clearly in the lack of anything else you'll see me in the produce isle of food lion rather than the "healthy choice" tv dinner isle. Though the push toward organic has made shopping at national stores significantly better than it used to be, much of their produce pales in comparison to the nutrient density of that grown on small farms. In other words, other than supporting the local economy, local produce (when chosen shrewdly) is preferable.

Regarding out of season: I didn't mean to imply it's not nutritious or in any way detrimental to your health. But you do need to be aware of things like sugar content of out-of-season fruits when your body naturally reduces its metabolism. I eat a fuckton of bananas but I will curb it somewhat in the winter; complex sugar will still result in weight gain if in excess.

[Edited on August 30, 2012 at 10:25 AM. Reason : asdf]

8/30/2012 10:24:26 AM

you dont need to know all that bullshit to be healthy unless youre an actual athlete or have some kind of serious medical issue

thats stupid and a waste of time

if you want to eat a piece of fruit, good for you, eat a piece of fucking fruit for godsakes. dont worry about the provenance or whether they banana was happy during its development

its fruit, fruit is good for you

jesus..SUGAR SUGAR. nothing wrong with damn sugar

[Edited on August 30, 2012 at 10:29 AM. Reason : e]

8/30/2012 10:27:34 AM

Says the athlete. Joe Deskjob needs to worry about things like carbohydrate and calorie sources, otherwise he'll get that pasty spare tire and keep his shirt on at pool parties.

8/30/2012 10:29:19 AM

I'm not bashing anyone, Chris. I'm just reflecting on what I think changed in our country to promote chronic excessive eating, which I have certainly participated in.

Since people are gettin real in here, I'll tell y'all that I weighed a little over 200 lbs on my 8th birthday, and I weighed 300 before i was 13, despite playing sports in every season, doctors and nutritionists. it doesn't change anything to pinpoint responsibility for why I am so terribly overweight, but I want to establish my history as a giant since the beginning of time. Sleep problems, restrictive dieting and medications which are known to cause weight gain all added to my problem. I've been stable/losing little at a time for a few years now, but now that my problems are gone for the most part, I'm still left with this 200 lb reminder. As many of you struggle and struggle to lose and maintain even 20 lbs for a year, I'm confident that most of the hate that comes my way is from morons lacking major empathy.


At the very least, my skeleton and muscles have long been adapted to carrying this weight around and I feel I'm more flexible and active (and have better vitals) than people that gained to my size as adults. I work out with weights, do cardio dance, and enjoy walking/hiking and bouldering. Increased activity usually results in me eating more, though .

I've definitely been a fan of shopping the borders of the grocery store for the last 5 or so years. I consider it a victory if i can get out without buying something in a box or something sweetened.


you people need to keep your grocery store judgments to yo'selves. I've gotten the stink eye more than once when my cart was full of fruit and vegetables, and literally nothing else. I wasn't even going to deep fry them.



If I lost a pound a week, it would take me 4-5 years to "lose it all". Oh, and I'd continue to look like a fat cow right up until the end. could y'all withstand being chronically hungry for that long? I have to take a break every few months, and I usually backslide some.

8/30/2012 10:29:24 AM

if mr desk job is getting his carbohydrates by eating fruit, thats a good thing.

this thread isnt about spare tires (shouldnt be) its about Obesity and increased risk of various diseases

who fucking care about a little extra flab. get over it and grow up

[Edited on August 30, 2012 at 10:31 AM. Reason : e]

8/30/2012 10:30:05 AM

Anti-obesity:

Not
About
That
Life

8/30/2012 10:31:06 AM

Quote :

"there's a preponderance of studies indicating that a calorie is a calorie. however, fiber-rich foods help one reach satiety with a lot less damage."

Actually, from what I've been reading, this is like totally 100% on the money. There is powerful explanatory value in pinning our problem on a lack of fiber. If you go to eat at McDonalds, there is almost no fiber on the menu. No, really:

http://www.fastfoodnutrition.org/r-nutrition-facts/McDonalds-item.html

Some experts argue that Fructose (half of what's in sugar) is a poison, and nature dealt with this by making fiber the antidote. You can't get Fructose without fiber in nature, but you better believe you can at the next store.

Here is a smart guy who makes this argument with facts for 2 hours:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM

So I propose this mrfrog diet:

- don't ever drink any sugar drinks. Not juice, not sweet tea, not coke, nothing that has fructose in water period.
- eat broccoli

done!

8/30/2012 10:31:13 AM

i take fiber supplements every day

thats the only supplement to my diet i take, i dont eat as much and it also makes me consume proper amounts of water...which btw has always been the biggest hinderance to maintaining weight

[Edited on August 30, 2012 at 10:33 AM. Reason : w]

8/30/2012 10:32:39 AM

I'm talking ideals here guys. Yes, I still shop at food dog in a pinch but if your weight is an issue for you, developing the right mindset is tantamount to achieving your goal. And that, by and large, should include feeding your body with what it was designed to process, wherever possible.

[Edited on August 30, 2012 at 10:37 AM. Reason : ^^, ^ excellent info]

8/30/2012 10:36:02 AM

Quote :

"you people need to keep your grocery store judgments to yo'selves. I've gotten the stink eye more than once when my cart was full of fruit and vegetables, and literally nothing else. I wasn't even going to deep fry them. "

At this point, you should lick your finger and then do the sizzle as you touch it to your nipple.

Quote :

"i take fiber supplements every day"

Are these like pills? A supplement seems strange because to me, fiber is "food". Is one type of fiber better than another? See, I don't trust these fiber bars that are getting so popular. Companies are trying to capitalize on the perception that we need more fiber, but bars are such the pit of processed foods. They're probably pumped full of HFCS.

There's always prunes. If you are a fan of pooping, look no further.

8/30/2012 10:45:58 AM

dont make me say it..


its metamucil im an old man, thats as hardcore as ill get about it because i tried the pure pure fiber supplement with no flavor...god never again

i dont like the fiber bars and stuff either, not to depend on fiber at least. i do like them for the taste though

[Edited on August 30, 2012 at 10:49 AM. Reason : w]

8/30/2012 10:47:48 AM

prunes are fucking sugary.



I take inulin/maltodextrin whatever clear soluble fibre supplements in water. They save your ass that odd day you have to eat other people's food and don't get any roughage, or when you've eaten nothing but salad and fruit for 3 days and you've got the fiber runs

8/30/2012 10:49:25 AM

i just thought to myself i might go to bojangles for lunch

8/30/2012 10:50:42 AM

sprinkle your fries with metamucil and the calories don't count

8/30/2012 10:58:07 AM

metamucil iced tea. make sure you get unsweetened hahaha

8/30/2012 10:59:18 AM

you have to drink it fast or it turns to jelly

8/30/2012 11:06:31 AM

this will sound gross, but when i was on the liquid protein diet crap i would take my dinner meal and add the metamucil to it and let it get thick so I could eat something "solid."

8/30/2012 11:09:35 AM

are probiotic supplements fo' real or just a fad?

8/30/2012 11:12:14 AM

i dunno. the ones in yogurt really aren't the same species that live in your gut. The real yogurt with those bacteria is like $50 for 30 tiny little cups.

8/30/2012 11:24:10 AM

Quote :

"^^Not really. Very little of the produce and meat at national grocery stores is non-GMO or truly organic. And most definitely not local (physiologially-speaking) or in season (wtf is your body going to do with tangerines, grapes, and bananas in February? Stitch those excess sugars into your winter coat.). You can certainly make MUCH better choices at these stores than shopping in the boxed/canned/shelf-lifed isles but it's still not going to give you what eating simple clean and local will."

While this is technically correct, and I even kind of agree with the sentiment (farmer's markets FTW), I think this kind of thinking can be very destructive to attempts to get Joe Average to eat healthy. It can lead to the flawed thought process "Well, if I can't eat healthy from the grocery store *no matter* what I eat, why bother with a salad? Pizza and ice cream tonight!"

8/30/2012 11:56:31 AM

it's no secret that Joe Average is weak-willed and easily flummoxed, and that's why he's overweight and leading a mediocre, in-the-way lifestyle.

There's a little more of Joe Average in me than I'd care to admit

8/30/2012 12:01:52 PM

Quote :

"there's a preponderance of studies indicating that a calorie is a calorie. however, fiber-rich foods help one reach satiety with a lot less damage. If I'm going to eat something terrible like tortellini, I literally cover at least 80% of my plate with salad. and I have to put the leftovers up before we eat so that I don't pick at them after dinner as I'm putting things away and making lunches. but, I'm a former binge eater (duh) and maybe most people don't have that problem. One binge could wreck weeks of calorie cutting."

"A calorie is a calorie" is only valid if you're talking about losing or gaining fat. It doesn't take into account macronutrient or micronutrient intake, both of which are absolutely critical components in a healthy diet.

The type of food you're eating will make a big difference in your ability to stick to a weight loss oriented diet. If you always feel hungry and deprived, it's going to slowly chip away at your resolve until eventually you fall back into old (bad) habits.

Part of this is about rewiring your brain to get pleasure from foods that are actually nutritious, and part of it is about choosing foods that are actually satisfying and filling. High-fiber food is the obvious choice, but fats and protein are really important as well. Empty carbs are usually the enemy for people looking to lose fat.

My diet is high in eggs, meat, dairy, and vegetables. As far as calories vs. satisfaction, those are all good choices. Unfortunately, a lot of this stuff just comes down to willpower. You're going to have to consistently turn down foods that you really want to eat, or at least eat a smaller portion of that food than you would prefer. Free food pops up in the office all the time, for me - cupcakes, company-provided lunches, etc. As an example, I took a cupcake, then stashed it in the fridge, planning it as part of a post work out meal a day later. I don't "forget" about calories. If I "cheat", it all gets thrown into the number crunching that is week-to-week fat loss.

8/30/2012 12:48:39 PM

Surely, with the obvious abundance of skinny people who never tried to be skinny or keep their caloric consumption down, we can agree that starving yourself isn't the key the staying thin.

And did the general population starve itself in the 1950s? Maybe in the 30s, but there's sufficient president from the booming decades. Although some skinny people actively try to stay skinny and go on diets... that's not why they're skinny to begin with, and it's quite possibly completely and utterly unrelated.

Even though it seems preposterous that there's some "magic key" to maintaining a healthy weight, evidence would suggest that it's preposterous that there isn't such a thing. Only problem is, we don't even know the category it falls in. It could be activity, food, hormones, the water supply, or even community.

[Edited on August 30, 2012 at 1:04 PM. Reason : ]

8/30/2012 1:03:25 PM

Quote :

"Surely, with the obvious abundance of skinny people who never tried to be skinny or keep their caloric consumption down, we can agree that starving yourself isn't the key the staying thin."

This statement doesn't make sense to me. No one is suggesting that starving yourself is the key to staying thin. Starving is kind of a loaded word, though. I would say "starvation" is when your body has run out of body fat and starts breaking down muscle/organ tissue to survive. Most Americans have never been anywhere close to starving. I hear people say they're "starving" when I know that they ate a 1,000 calorie meal two hours before and they're carrying enough body fat to live without food for months.

If you got fat, it's because of your behavior. For whatever reason, you ate more than you needed to eat. Maybe it's because of some medical condition or medication. Maybe you were really hungry. It doesn't really matter, the solution for removing that fat from your body is always the same - a calorie (energy) deficit.

If you eat at maintenance 364 days of the year, and then one day, you eat 5,000 calories, you're going to gain about a pound of fat. You could lose that pound of fat by fasting for a couple of days, or you could run a 100 calorie deficit for a few weeks. Different approaches have different advantages and drawbacks. The point to take away here is that most people get fat because they eat too much here and there, and after a few years of not actively restricting their diet to lose the fat, it adds up.

While humans were evolving, there really weren't high-calorie, low-satiety foods available. Weight kind of naturally regulated itself in the population. Well, we are (relatively) rich now, and there are plenty of high-calorie, low-satiety foods, and so natural regulation is no longer an option - people have to be educated and deliberately make good choices.

8/30/2012 2:05:51 PM

Does this mean that I can start kicking the shit out of fat people for no reason now? I mean, I did just shave my head.

8/30/2012 2:17:32 PM

Quote :

"mrfrog: There's always prunes. If you are a fan of pooping, look no further."

You may already know this, but for other folks, I just wanted to say that prunes actually don't have a lot of fiber in them. They do have a natural laxative, which relieves constipation, but it's not a high fiber thing.

[Edited on August 30, 2012 at 2:21 PM. Reason : Too far.]

8/30/2012 2:19:48 PM

^^^ i agree with everything you say there, but it's strange to see you saying this:

Quote :

"natural regulation is no longer an option "

[Edited on August 30, 2012 at 2:21 PM. Reason : ]

8/30/2012 2:20:38 PM

I use the term "regulation" there very differently than I would in a political context.

8/30/2012 2:23:37 PM

Quote :

"If you got fat, it's because of your behavior. For whatever reason, you ate more than you needed to eat."

Yes, it's because of "your" behavior, but what you're missing is the definition of self in this context. Modern psychology isn't so content to label all decisions as belonging to the ego part of the mind. The self that makes the decision to eat more ice cream isn't necessarily the same self posting on TWW about how much ice cream one should eat.

There is a very sophisticated intelligence behind the intelligence that we perceive of ourselves. If the lower structure of the mind decides that it wants a different weight, it will coax the "you" into supplying the resources (if available) into achieving that weight.

Quote :

"you eat at maintenance 364 days of the year, and then one day, you eat 5,000 calories, you're going to gain about a pound of fat"

Yes, it's very clear how extra calories translate into stored body fat in terms of basic energy balance. You are entirely right about that.

The problem is that activity is motivated by decisions that are motivated by... well we don't know what! Some psychologists call that below-the-surface intelligence I was referring to as the "elephant" of one's mind. The elephant in your mind can cause you to go shopping, to go drinking, or stand up from your desk once an hour.

The elephant, like real elephants, is entirely trainable. Clearly, some of that training comes from self-control methods that can be taught. But some of it could also be caused by an unnaturally high intake of sugar that changes the control setpoint for some body metrics. Your friends are probably training your elephant to behave certain ways, in a very real form of real cultural cognition.

If your elephant believes that you need more body mass, it will make small bump ups in the amount of calories that you're consuming and small bump downs in the amount of calories that you're burning, in imperceptible ways that you have no way to evaluate. The elephant can decide that you believe some lie, and then it's your job to use "logic" to justify it. That's how people work.

Quote :

"While humans were evolving, there really weren't high-calorie, low-satiety foods available."

And this has no explanatory value for why Americans are so fat now. These same foods were available to the island nation of Japan in the 1990s.

Quote :

"Well, we are (relatively) rich now, and there are plenty of high-calorie, low-satiety foods, and so natural regulation is no longer an option - people have to be educated and deliberately make good choices."

This, as a solution, will fail, fail, fail. Your reasoning doesn't even correctly predict the problem! I don't think your solution based on that logic is going to be particularly effective.

[Edited on August 30, 2012 at 2:35 PM. Reason : ]

8/30/2012 2:33:19 PM

You're making this way too complicated.

If you eat sensible portions of healthy foods, and do some sort of physical activity most days of the week, you're not going to be obese.

8/30/2012 2:38:49 PM

and like I said, "you" can't do that

8/30/2012 2:41:44 PM

This isn't to speak on your post as a whole, but

Quote :

" If you eat at maintenance 364 days of the year, and then one day, you eat 5,000 calories, you're going to gain about a pound of fat. "

sounds like a load of horseshit

8/30/2012 2:59:47 PM

im a a fattie.

i eat low carb. i walk

i drink water.

weight loss has occurred.

8/30/2012 3:00:40 PM

mad cuz my bitch make yo bitch look like Precious

8/30/2012 3:04:57 PM

^^^There are obviously a few considerations:

1. How many calories do you burn in a day?
2. How much of the fat/stuff from the 5,000 calories do you actually absorb?
3. How much did you move around and lift things?

It's difficult to say for sure because there are always other factors, but I'm fairly confident I've gained a pound of fat in a single 24-hour period on multiple occasions. Think about it: if you drink a ton of beer, eat half a medium pizza and three donuts, sleep, go out for an omelette and sausage, and then get back in bed with some cheetos/leftover pizza and a hangover...that's easily 5,000 calories with very little activity...and if most of it got absorbed, then you've got yourself a pound of body fat.

[Edited on August 30, 2012 at 3:22 PM. Reason : ]

8/30/2012 3:19:14 PM

[Edited on August 30, 2012 at 3:24 PM. Reason : .]

8/30/2012 3:24:15 PM

If I stay uptown and don't stray too far they don't come around much.

Cacomorphobia.

[Edited on August 30, 2012 at 3:27 PM. Reason : exception: speed street]

8/30/2012 3:25:44 PM

Quote :

""whole" - irrelevant "minimally-processed" - well yeah "natural" - redundant with minimally-processed Although I agree that there are ways to process foods that will wreck the nutritional value of it, everyone who has advocated this to me has had a nutritional agenda that was frankly, complete bullshit."

amen mrfrog

8/30/2012 3:33:28 PM

I've got a good idea. If we stopped curing/treating diseases caused by obesity natural selection would kick back in and we'd normalize again.

8/30/2012 3:39:24 PM

Quote :

"You're making this way too complicated. *If you eat sensible portions of healthy foods, and do some sort of physical activity most days of the week, you're not going to be obese."

* Unless you're already obese in which case that won't do shit except keep you at your current weight.

People who have never been overweight often forget that the extra weight a person carries is a result of their past and not necessarily indicative of their current habits. A body won't return to a normal weight simply by correcting the bad habits that made it unhealthy in the first place. As the studies linked in the Cracked.com article point out, even if a person goes the extra mile to lose excess weight their body continually fights to put it back on. There are biological processes at work which can undermine the psychological decision to get to a healthy weight. These biological processes may be difficult to understand if you've never carried any excessive weight or lost any notable amounts of weight, but that doesn't mean they should be so easily written off as a lack of willpower.

[Edited on August 30, 2012 at 3:42 PM. Reason : s]

8/30/2012 3:40:35 PM

Yeah but I would argue "sensible portions" implies a calorie deficit aka you'll lose weight.

8/30/2012 3:43:09 PM

^^that may be true for a small portion of the obese, but for most, their obesity originates from poor diet and being lazy fat asses.

For most of these people if they stopped eating shitty food and walked daily, they would lose weight. The problem lies in the fact that people want to lose weight as fast as possible because they are impatient. They dont see the results they think they should be seeing and they revert back to being lazy fat asses.



[Edited on August 30, 2012 at 3:50 PM. Reason : slow]

8/30/2012 3:48:05 PM

Quote :

"Yes, it's because of "your" behavior, but what you're missing is the definition of self in this context. Modern psychology isn't so content to label all decisions as belonging to the ego part of the mind. The self that makes the decision to eat more ice cream isn't necessarily the same self posting on TWW about how much ice cream one should eat. There is a very sophisticated intelligence behind the intelligence that we perceive of ourselves. If the lower structure of the mind decides that it wants a different weight, it will coax the "you" into supplying the resources (if available) into achieving that weight."

When I say "you" and "your", I mean whatever is contained with your brain and body. We can talk about psychology, we can talk about social influence, and all of things are very important, but the problem is behavior. It's very important to determine why certain behaviors become some prevalent, but we may find that some behaviors are simply a product of the modern era. There may not be a "solution" to the root cause of behavior, we may just have to adjust our behavior.

Quote :

"And this has no explanatory value for why Americans are so fat now. These same foods were available to the island nation of Japan in the 1990s."

This is true, and I would imagine that the lower rate of obesity in Japan has complex explanations. I would imagine that social pressure and a cultural drive to stay thin is at play there; I don't think you have many pushing for "fat acceptance" in Japan.

Quote :

"This, as a solution, will fail, fail, fail. Your reasoning doesn't even correctly predict the problem! I don't think your solution based on that logic is going to be particularly effective."

A solution to what problem? What do you think the problem is?

If education and willpower doesn't count as a solution, then I think we might have a disagreement about what the core problem is.

Quote :

"sounds like a load of horseshit"

It varies based on the person. If you want something a little less horseshitty, you'd gain somewhere between a half pound and a pound. Some people have higher or lower nutrient absorption rates.

8/30/2012 3:48:16 PM

Quote :

"People who have never been overweight often forget that the extra weight a person carries is a result of their past and not necessarily indicative of their current habits. A body won't return to a normal weight simply by correcting the bad habits that made it unhealthy in the first place."

Tru dat.

I put on most of my weight during a high stress period in my life. I had a child in the hospital and spent a lot of time just sitting, waiting, and eating out of vending machines. It was just a miserable period of my life. Since I tend to gain weight, it didn't take long for overweight to become obese. I take complete ownership of it.

I eat sensibly and I spent 5-6 days of the week at the gym. While I am seeing results, it's slow slow slow because I do not have the discipline or the desire to operate at such a caloric deficit that I feel deprived, exhausted, and/or over trained. It's really easy to tell someone (especially if you've never struggled with your weight) to just to put down the fucking twinkie and go for a walk, but it takes a heck of a lot more than just dropping the old habits to lose weight. Otherwise, you just stay a fatass, but at least you're not becoming an even bigger fatass.

[Edited on August 30, 2012 at 3:53 PM. Reason : .]

8/30/2012 3:51:44 PM

Quote :

"If education and willpower doesn't count as a solution, then I think we might have a disagreement about what the core problem is."

The problem with that, though, is you can throw education at people, but you can't just make them have willpower.

8/30/2012 3:58:40 PM