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afripino
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pg 2

[Edited on September 6, 2016 at 4:46 PM. Reason : respect our cops...dammit!]

9/6/2016 4:46:24 PM

JCE2011
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If you can't even define what the problem is, you're going to have a difficult time solving it.

I think it speaks to the effectiveness of the media in creating a narrative... everyone seems to know the police are racist, trigger happy, out of control killers... they just can't seem to back it up outside of anecdote.

9/6/2016 4:56:49 PM

dmspack
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Quote :
"I think it speaks to the effectiveness of the media in creating a narrative... everyone seems to know the police are racist, trigger happy, out of control killers... they just can't seem to back it up outside of anecdote."


but we can all agree that there are abuses of power and misconduct that have nothing to do with race, that don't result in death that are still very wrong, right? so there's a starting point for us to all agree on.

[Edited on September 6, 2016 at 5:58 PM. Reason : add a word yo]

9/6/2016 5:57:25 PM

justinh524
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no

9/6/2016 6:04:42 PM

Dentaldamn
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Ok, let's start by completely overhauling Civil forfeiture.

9/6/2016 6:16:25 PM

The E Man
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Quote :
"what specifically is the problem, what do the statistics say, what do we want them to be, and is it feasible?"

We pride ourselves on being the "land of the free" yet rank 17th in freedom so we should probably work on improving that. When you look into our score on the human freedom index, our weakest area is "rule of law". All scores are out of 10 and we only get a 6.5 in criminal justice.

http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/human-freedom-index-files/human-freedom-index-2015.pdf

Overall freedom: 8.34 (17th)
rule of law: 6.8
procedural justice 7.3
civil justice 6.5
criminal justice 6.5

We rely on police to ensure public safety and they are not getting the job done. We have the most dangerous country in the developed world and spend more on police. They are failing. We rank 94th worldwide in crime.

http://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp

Quote :
"
Notice how the "problems" haven't even been defined? This limits the productivity of the discussion because that's where the 2 sides generally disagree."

Problems have been laid out and well-documented in DOJ reports but if you want that level of specificity, you are going to have to read the reports. Even if there were no problems, all of these suggestions are improvements anyway.

Police everywhere are not failing but places like chicago would be better off to just start over with their police.

There are more reasons to do this. Right now, police do a horrible job interacting with communities. The indirect effect is that when police have more training in working with people, people will trust them and work with them. Right now, gang or terrorist activity can go on in many areas and people look the other way because they fear the police.

9/6/2016 7:04:10 PM

JCE2011
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Quote :
"but we can all agree that there are abuses of power and misconduct that have nothing to do with race, that don't result in death that are still very wrong, right? so there's a starting point for us to all agree on.
"


Correct, nobody disagrees. That's why laws, policies, and rules are in place today to prevent and correct for that.

If there are a ton of car crashes on a dangerous part of a road, eventually signs will be put up, the speed limit reduced, or the road will be reconstructed. However this requires knowing which road, knowing information regarding crashes there, and having corrective plans in place. Saying vague statements like "car crashes are bad" don't really mean anything, and starting a divisive "Speding lives matter" movement to protest speeding cars being more likely to crash makes things worse.

[Edited on September 6, 2016 at 7:45 PM. Reason : .]

9/6/2016 7:44:10 PM

afripino
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Ticketing as a means of revenue is shitty practice. How about that one? The speed limit isn't always lowered for "safety".

9/6/2016 8:03:55 PM

dmspack
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Quote :
"Correct, nobody disagrees. That's why laws, policies, and rules are in place today to prevent and correct for that. "


but what about when it takes years to correct those issues? or years to even find out what the issue was? or an entire dept of justice investigation to determine the short comings of a police department? if we know that these issues exist as whole, would it not be better to take proactive measures in addition to current measures? like...if we can improve something as important as our police force, shouldn't we?

to use your dangerous intersection example...sometimes the DOT or whoever knows that an intersection might be dangerous before it's even completed. so they put in stop lights, an extra lane, some signs, whatever...you can act proactively as well.

[Edited on September 6, 2016 at 8:08 PM. Reason : f]

9/6/2016 8:05:54 PM

JCE2011
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Right, I'm not disagreeing with common sense suggestions like "improve police" or "misconduct is bad". My point is unless you are very specific about the problem and solutions it's tough to agree or disagree with reform measures. It's also important to be careful with such vague statements, because that leads to divisive political nonsense like #BLM "Cops are racist" or GOP "You don't care about dead babies" caliber arguing.

9/7/2016 1:18:52 AM

Fermat
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first time i'm hearing that last one.

I guess it just boils down to "What is needed for police to be held accountable for their actions more effectively?" and more importantly what actions would actually work VS what is practically worth the sacrifice.

Don't delude yourself into thinking there won't be unpleasant sacrifices.

Some of you waterheads have openly proposed robotic Orwellian dystopia as reasonable responses. That's the first element you have to keep out of the discussion

9/7/2016 3:31:57 AM

Dentaldamn
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While you guys toss around hypotheticals.....

THe NYPD paid out over 200 million dollars in 2015 on lawsuits brought against it. This money paid out comes out of tax payer money. I'd like to see it paid out from anywhere else.

[Edited on September 7, 2016 at 7:13 AM. Reason : Bc that's fucked up. ]

9/7/2016 7:12:14 AM

afripino
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some have proposed the NYPD pension funds as the source of payment.

[Edited on September 7, 2016 at 9:55 AM. Reason : ]

9/7/2016 9:55:03 AM

darkone
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^ Isn't that taxpayer guaranteed as a function of the union contract?

9/7/2016 12:22:50 PM

afripino
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it doesn't have to be.

9/7/2016 2:03:55 PM

GrumpyGOP
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So The E Man had two big ideas, one of which was very dumb, and one of which was actually quite on the money.

We don't need more college for cops. Think about the people you knew in college. Yeah. That degree is hardly a guarantee of competence or basic human decency.

Far more useful -- also, incidentally, cost-effective -- are decriminalizing/legalizing marijuana and reducing the scope of police involvement in traffic enforcement. Those parts you had right. The sheer number of police/public enforcement interactions is an enormous problem in terms of mistrust, wasted time, and heightened danger.

9/7/2016 2:23:56 PM

The E Man
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well thats what meaningful reform and compromise is all about. it seems we can all agree on something.

9/8/2016 1:48:44 AM

Str8BacardiL
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We could start firing cops for doing unethical or stupid & irresponsible shit at work.......you know like the way it works at every other job. I have worked for corporations that fired people for forgetting to lock a fucking lock or fudging some shit on an expense report or time sheet. There is no hearing or review board...just badge, phone, key...now good luck and GTFO. It is not great for morale when that happens and the sometimes a few people get canned for shit a bunch of people are doing but it helps maintain order and standards which any organization needs to function.

The problem with LEOs in this country is not that they are bad people. The problem is there is a sense of entitlement that just because it is a hard job no one should be accountable for what they do or don't do at work. Work is work, you get paid to do it, no one makes you. If you are unable or unwilling to do a job the way it should be done go find another one. One false representation on a report or charging document should mean you are out... Ignore unethical behavior?? see ya Shoot someone because you failed to asses a situation correctly?? No hard feelings but this is not the job for you. Good luck in your next job.

I will tell anyone right now that I would be a horrible cop. Could not do it, have no desire to. The people that step up to do that work deserve our respect. Having that said its a very important job just as important as any other job that effects weather people live or die (pilot, ems, surgeon, etc) and it should be done with integrity and competence or let the next guy step up.

9/9/2016 2:51:50 PM

afripino
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^I am 100% on board with that, although it won't happen. they're too afraid that if they fire anyone, that person will possibly snitch and out all the crazy shit they do unprofessionally. blue line, old boys club, and all that jazz...

[Edited on September 9, 2016 at 5:06 PM. Reason : ]

9/9/2016 5:05:52 PM

jtdenny
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^^ accountability sounds great

if that were to happen, and people stopped committing crimes there would probably be less drama

9/9/2016 9:52:11 PM

Big4Country
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Quote :
"Police everywhere are not failing but places like chicago would be better off to just start over with their police. "


Actually the big problem in places like that is not the police, it is the people living in the ghetto. Drug cartels and street gangs are violent and there isn't much the cops can do about that except arrest them and throw them in prison for life. That isn't a cheap option though. This is where the NAACP and other groups who like to cry racism need to quit crying racism and work with the community to better it. The poor people in these places need to be taught violence is not ok and focus on school instead of drug dealing and robbery. They also need to be taught the importance of family. The government does offer an option for some people where they give them a voucher for rent and they can move to nicer neighborhoods. Of course that has caused some backlash when the ghetto tries to move into rich white neighborhoods. I don't know what can be done to try to stop the poverty cycle, but something needs to be done. Even if it can't be done the people need to just take their hand outs from the government and try to be happy.

9/11/2016 6:02:38 PM

dtownral
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were you able to graduate high school?

9/11/2016 6:10:58 PM

Big4Country
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^Of course I was. A lot of people with 2 parent homes in middle class America do.

9/11/2016 6:13:03 PM

dtownral
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so then it was just a shitty school? i'm trying to figure out who failed you or why you're so dumb

did you attend any college?

9/11/2016 6:16:49 PM

Big4Country
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^I'm not dumb. I was just responding to a quote. It's not the polices fault that certain parts of towns have a high crime rate. The bigger issue in our society is breaking the poverty cycle and teaching children that education is the way to go and not making millions off of illegal drugs.

[Edited on September 11, 2016 at 6:29 PM. Reason : .]

9/11/2016 6:29:11 PM

thegoodlife3
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people don't deal drugs in hopes of becoming millionaires. they do it to be able eat/provide.

9/11/2016 6:37:49 PM

Big4Country
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^And for the perks. I was watching one of those Drugs INC shows one time and a guy said he knew he would be shot dead at a young age, but he doesn't care because he has money, jewelry, a fancy car, etc. He would rather live the high life for a short while than go to school and work for a living.

9/11/2016 6:40:55 PM

OopsPowSrprs
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Quote :
"Actually the big problem in places like that is not the police, it is the people living in the ghetto"


Of course the obvious solution to this is to knock down the ghettos and spread the Section 8ers out across the cities and into the suburbs. Something tells me you won't like that though.

9/11/2016 8:43:29 PM

The E Man
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^The obvious solution to that is giving everyone section 8. Something tells me you won't like that though.

9/12/2016 12:28:59 AM

Dentaldamn
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Why don't we legalize drugs!

9/12/2016 7:18:44 AM

rjrumfel
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maybe we should legalize some, to keep people out of jail for marijuana. The problem will be that as soon as you legalize marijuana, the dealers will turn to other illegal drugs.

And I think everyone here would agree that legal heroin isn't a good idea.

9/12/2016 11:58:15 AM

EMCE
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The dealer's are already dealing heroin. Legalizing or decriminalization of marijuana won't make the dealer's sell MORE heroin.

9/12/2016 12:05:03 PM

Str8BacardiL
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I for one would not run out to try heroin the first day weed is legalized....those edibles on the other hand.

9/12/2016 12:08:34 PM

EMCE
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I stopped short of saying there has to be a desire on the part of the drug user to purchase drugs too. Its not like anyone is going to be like "oh, out of bud for the day? Cool, I'll just take 3 grams of heroin instead"

9/12/2016 12:16:07 PM

rjrumfel
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So you don't think there are dealers out there that are just dealing weed? For sure there are. And when their markets suddenly drop out from under them, you can bet they'll move on to different pastures.

9/12/2016 12:27:12 PM

thegoodlife3
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or just keep selling weed, like they do in Denver and Seattle

their prices are still significantly less

9/12/2016 12:31:06 PM

EMCE
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Eh, I think your cause-effect model is way too simplistic. If A then B is rarely adequate when describing human behaviour.

Quote :
"So you don't think there are dealers out there that are just dealing weed? For sure there are. And when their markets suddenly drop out from under them, you can bet they'll move on to different pastures."

Oh, there certainly are dealers that just sell weed. There is also a pretty big leap in terms of product, procurement suppliers, clientele, and security going from selling weed to heroin... A leap that I think you're making way too easily. The people willing to sell heroin are already selling it.

They decriminalized weed here in DC. The sky has yet too fall, there hasn't been a spike in use of other drugs, weed is still sold* by dealers.

There was a sharp decline in arrests, crime associated with drug deals, more $$ for the city, smaller burden on the court system, etc... The police say they are fans of legalized weed too, as it keeps them from having to arrest people for stupid reasons.


* DC is unlike Colo., for example, because congress interfered with our laws preventing a market system for weed allowing anyone of age to walk into a store to purchase.


[Edited on September 12, 2016 at 12:47 PM. Reason : G]

9/12/2016 12:40:39 PM

Bullet
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"And I think everyone here would agree that legal heroin isn't a good idea."


Nope. Legalize it all.

9/12/2016 12:44:56 PM

TreeTwista10
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We already have a pretty significant problem with "legal" opioids (ie prescription drugs.) Anyone who thinks just straight up legalizing heroin to adults over 18 or even 21 is a good idea, has some screws loose.

9/12/2016 2:12:43 PM

Bullet
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The government shouldn't control what substance a consenting adult wants to put in their body, and shouldn't use taxpayers moneys to keep them from getting it, or paying for their detention for years and years after addicts are caught with it. Those millions and millions of dollars would be much better spent for treatment of those who want to stop. If you don't see that, you've got some loose screws.

[Edited on September 12, 2016 at 2:27 PM. Reason : ]

9/12/2016 2:23:46 PM

TreeTwista10
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Your scenario makes tons of sense when talking about something relatively harmless like weed. Not heroin.

9/12/2016 2:34:04 PM

Bullet
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what about alcohol and cigarettes and shitty food, all of which is more harmful (and deadly) than weed?

[Edited on September 12, 2016 at 2:36 PM. Reason : ]

9/12/2016 2:35:53 PM

afripino
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fuck it...personal responsibility all the way. stop being a bitch about it. let Darwin do his thang.

9/12/2016 2:37:21 PM

Klatypus
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Quote :
"And I think everyone here would agree that legal heroin isn't a good idea"


not a fan, and do not wish to see people waste away on heroin. Someone very close to me is a recovering addict, and watching them at their lowest, watching them shoot up reusing needles from god knows where... I would rather it be legal and clean, with PROPER access to recovery options.

I'm sure a few people may have heard that when people start overdosing on a supply, more people start asking where to get that stuff, which is true, but they are operating under the assumption that it must be a great high that is so stron it can kill...NO half the time that shit is cut with nasty shit and people die because these things are in the hands of dealers that give no shits, and cutting it with rat poison and baking soda creates profit for them. Once she began methadone treatment (first it was REALLY long and a hard process to get her into the clinic), she was at the will of that clinic. They randomly cut their hours one day and a bunch of people were stuck without any methadone, so they all huddled together asking eachother for contact info for a heroine dealer. The woman I knew didn't want to fall back in that easily, so she decided to kick it cold turkey for some reason (which she almost died from) 2 weeks later she was free from it. Lost weight, could barely walk, but no longer needed a fix. She had already done treatments before, and either she lost contact or rules changed or she didn't have reliable transportation always stood in her way. So that last time she finally decided she would rather die than have to try it all over again. She was addicted for 12 years, during which she owned a successful construction company and since being clean makes over $80K/yr which is pretty damn amazing and shows you that not all heroin addicts are useless scum of society with nothing to contribute

long story short, restricting access does not accomplish anything. In Russia, they overcame their heroin restriction by introducing the cheaper much more lethal Krokodil.

I do not know what would solve this, I imagine it would be multifaceted and over a long period of time with appropriate funding (ha yea right)





[Edited on September 12, 2016 at 2:48 PM. Reason : .]

9/12/2016 2:37:45 PM

Bullet
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^exactly. the fact that it's illegal doesn't really seem to keep people from using and dying from it.

9/12/2016 2:43:22 PM

TreeTwista10
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People who really want to do heroin are going to find a way to get it whether it's legal or not. That doesn't mean we should make it easy for someone to get ahold of something so addictive and dangerous. Sure, it would mean less non-violent drug offenders in prison. It would also mean more heroin use, which is a horrible thing.

9/12/2016 2:45:51 PM

Bullet
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It wouldn't necessarily mean more heroine use. And it would mean safer heroine use. Less ODs. Less people deathly ill from withdrawal when they can't get it.

I'm not saying I'm for just putting rigs for sale on the convenience store counter. I'm just talking about the decriminalization of it. I don't know exactly how it would work.

9/12/2016 2:54:25 PM

Klatypus
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well what are your rebuttals to clinics like these then ?

http://sciencenordic.com/heroin-clinics-improve-addicts-lives

Quote :
"Reduced the number of days spent on crimes to a third
Increased the number of addicts who find permanent housing by 30 percent
Reduced side abuse so that addicts drink 50 percent less alcohol, and the abuse of benzodiazepines such as Valium has been reduced to a third."


https://psmag.com/the-only-place-where-they-ll-inject-you-with-heroin-for-free-7a1789018adb#.g2erb7rrw

Quote :
"The findings were intriguing. While results of the NAOMI trial published in the New England Journal of Medicine showed that nearly 90 percent of the participants who received heroin remained committed to the program, the same was true for only 54 percent of those on methadone. Another study published in the Canadian Medical Association Journal showed that throughout an average lifetime, participants provided with heroin would generate a societal cost of $1.1 million in contrast $1.14 million for methadone, making the concept of heroin maintenance a cost-saving measure."


but also, not just Heroin Assisted Treatment Programs (HATS) but the access to legit recovery help

[Edited on September 12, 2016 at 2:58 PM. Reason : the hardest thing is loving an addict]

9/12/2016 2:56:34 PM

TreeTwista10
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I, too, don't have a good solution. I just feel like some of the "legalize drugs" arguments are predicated on:

- personal freedom and responsibility, regardless of well-being of users (who often don't know any better)
- reducing prison population of non-violent drug offenders

I'm all for freedom and less crowded jails, but I'm not sure if just legalizing all drugs won't have a lot of other negative side effects. I also agree that more recovery and treatment options are necessary. But I think legalizing something like heroin would lead to a lot of destroyed families and lives.

9/12/2016 3:05:15 PM

Bullet
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it's currently destroying lots of families and lives, i would tend to believe that legalizing it in someway and treating it more of as an illness than a crime would lead to less destroyed families and lives.

9/12/2016 3:09:57 PM

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