1/26/2017 9:14:07 AM

If you mischaracterize your opponents on a basic fundamental level how could anyone expect you to treat their positions any different?



[Edited on January 26, 2017 at 9:15 AM. Reason : ]

1/26/2017 9:14:47 AM

Can we just suspend that bama JCE2011 for general Idiocracy? I mean, there is precedent for doing so.

Lemme get a quick up/down vote

1/26/2017 9:20:41 AM

this place would be boring if you did that.

1/26/2017 9:35:36 AM

Personally, Using him as a punching bag has kept my Facebook wall WAYYYYY less political (which could be good or bad depending on perspective, but I generally view it as a good thing).

I need you and your shitty posts JCE2011

1/26/2017 9:37:23 AM

he reminds me of those people that post in the facebook comment section that blame people for having fake accounts not realizing that privacy settings exist. people like him make me realize that liberals are omnipotent since they cause all of the world's ills.

[Edited on January 26, 2017 at 9:39 AM. Reason : ^this. At least he isn't using his alias very often these days.]

1/26/2017 9:38:46 AM

Quote :

"Honestly, it sounds as if YOU feel victimized whenever someone suggests justice, racial, and gender issues have any room for improvement in our society. Does the mere suggestion that Western society is not all inclusive and perfectly just offend you? You behave as though that suggestion does offend you."

They aren't asking for inclusiveness. They are relying on people to not understand statistics (gender wage gap) or just be gullible saps for vague, feel-good phrases (Women's rights)... they are relying on you to be emotional, useful idiots, that help them get away with demanding government control/wealth redistribution under the guise of morality.

I guess I can understand why you have to frame these issues so dishonestly, your entire position is based on accusing the most fair, prosperous, equal society to ever exist of being ___ist or ____phobic.

Quote :

"Personally, Using him as a punching bag "

LOL, keep dreaming son. Its 20 v 1 and your side is more triggered than ever.

[Edited on January 26, 2017 at 9:56 AM. Reason : .]

1/26/2017 9:54:42 AM

Funny you mention 1 against 20 because 5 of that 20 actually also identify as conservative and still can't believe the craziness you spout.

1/26/2017 10:12:30 AM

Count me as 1 of those 5.

1/26/2017 10:37:47 AM

I've got a triggered mod wanting to suspend me for posting something political he disagrees with

I've got a triggered fan club trying to post spam after everything I post

I'd say I know who is "punching" who.

My advice to you guys: If someone is exposing something you "support" as being bullshit, and it triggers you, maybe stop supporting bullshit? Or stock up a bunch of gifs to dilute your ass-whooping with spam. Either way it is hilarious to me

1/26/2017 10:43:48 AM

what exactly is "triggered" again?

[Edited on January 26, 2017 at 10:47 AM. Reason : ^also, follow your own advice.]

1/26/2017 10:47:15 AM

1/26/2017 10:50:17 AM

1/26/2017 11:04:18 AM

Quote :

"Mischaracterization of your opponent's position." Obviously you can't find an example of me doing that,"

Lol, dude is as guilty as anyone on here for constantly throwing out strawmen and framing all "liberals" (or SJWs, or whatever) as having the exact same position, and is too deluded and self-absorbed to see it.

1/26/2017 11:18:28 AM

Quote :

"I've got a triggered mod wanting to suspend me for posting something political he disagrees with"

Fuck, I shouldn't have shown my hand. Now some other mod who doesn't like your janky ass will suspend you, and everyone will think I'm the one who did it because I think your reasoning skills go from a reasonable premise to a completely conclusion

1/26/2017 11:26:02 AM

Quote :

"They aren't asking for inclusiveness. They are relying on people to not understand statistics (gender wage gap) or just be gullible saps for vague, feel-good phrases (Women's rights)... they are relying on you to be emotional, useful idiots, that help them get away with demanding government control/wealth redistribution under the guise of morality."

Actually, they quite clearly ARE asking for inclusiveness. Now you may disagree with the premise that our society is not already inclusive, and you may think they are ignorant or even EVIL for the position they take. Nevertheless, you are misrepresenting their position by confusing it with your judgment of their position.

To make the claim there is room for improvement (whether that claim is justified or not) is quite different from your misrepresentation, "...suggest that Western civilization, capitalism, republicans, white men, are evil".

And you did not answer my question:

Honestly, it sounds as if YOU feel victimized whenever someone suggests justice, racial, and gender issues have any room for improvement in our society. Does the mere suggestion that Western society is not all inclusive and perfectly just offend you? You behave as though that suggestion does offend you.

1/26/2017 2:56:19 PM

Quote :

"Actually, they quite clearly ARE asking for inclusiveness"

This is vague and meaningless bullshit you can't back up. If you want to bitch about the greatest civilization to ever exist, you need to provide a specific example where you think someone was excluded based on their membership in a leftist victim collective, and you need to frame it HONESTLY.

To put it simply, YOU CANT DO IT. You cannot find a case of a ____ist or a ____phobic law or policy in America today, because it is 2017. So you have to hide behind vague, mischaracterized slogans, fake hate crimes, and anecdote in a desperate attempt to create a false narrative of victimhood that has no basis in reality.

The biggest thing team Marxist SJW does to criticize America is to point to a disparity of outcome and attempt to portray it as a disparity of opportunity.

So that is pretty much it, the above argument applies to literally THE ENTIRE PDF list of bullshit SJW "Causes" that Klatypus posted, and pretty much to the entire DNC nowadays. Like I said though, since you can't back it up, you have to rely on vague meaningless words like "inclusiveness".

1/26/2017 3:25:49 PM

1/26/2017 4:32:38 PM

1/26/2017 4:40:08 PM

dont suspend JCE. he may make the same point over and over again but this place would be even more dead if everyone had same opinions

1/26/2017 5:04:01 PM

Quote :

"This is vague and meaningless bullshit you can't back up. If you want to bitch about the greatest civilization to ever exist, you need to provide a specific example where you think someone was excluded based on their membership in a leftist victim collective, and you need to frame it HONESTLY."

First, let's be clear about one thing: You are still confusing the position with your judgment of the position. Even if the position is fundamentally flawed, it is still, by definition the position.

People have different perceptions of reality. You perceive no exclusions based on membership in any group. Fine. Many disagree with you. Your disagreement with a position does not negate that position.

Do you at least understand that much?

Now we can continue the discussion about supposed examples of what is or is not discrimination, but before we continue it is important that we understand we are at least talking about the same fucking thing.

This conversation began with my claim that you MISCHARACTERIZE the position of the women's march, and I stand by that claim. Now you are trying to shift to a different claim, stating that their position is simply UNFOUNDED. We can discuss either one (or even both, at least until my patience with your arrogant ignorance wears thin), but make up your fucking mind: They are different fucking debates.

Shift the goal post much?

Nice try though.

And you never did answer my question, to which I'll add: In your world, is questioning the "greatest civilization to ever exist" strictly verboten? It certainly seems to get your jimmies all rustled.

1/26/2017 5:09:13 PM

Quote :

"To put it simply, YOU CANT DO IT. You cannot find a case of a ____ist or a ____phobic law or policy in America today, because it is 2017."

Oh, and it's simply adorable that you think this is some kind of argument.

Clearly, there is no murder in America; why, that crime has been outlawed for *centuries*!

Discrimination being illegal does not imply discrmination does not exist, dumbass. How fucking retarded are you?

[Edited on January 26, 2017 at 5:14 PM. Reason : *]

1/26/2017 5:13:55 PM

LOL. What a retreat! I haven't seen such a depressing collapse since Clinton at the 9/11 memorial service.

-You went from objectively being excluded in reality, to "perceiving" exclusion in the alternate reality the person perceives

-You went from discrimination in America/government/institutions to the abstract concept of discrimination existing, in general

You gave up a lot of ground there. Anyways, if you think I mischaracterized the women's march, you can put my characterization to the test by looking at the list of "issues" and tell me where my characterization is wrong. To make it simple for you, I am saying that every "issue" listed is bullshit because it does one of the following:

-References a disparity of outcome and claims it is a disparity of opportunity rather than different choices
-References a disputed topic in American politics (ie, abortion) but frames it in a dishonest way to suggest the issue is about something it isn't (ie, hates women)
-Is vague, feel-good, fluffy rhetoric that is too ill-defined to take seriously (ie, love trumps hate)

I would challenge you to find one that doesn't fit in the above criteria. My point here is that all the "issues" fit in most of these catergories, meaning the entirety of the women's march is protesting NOTHING of substance, which is perhaps why you started retreating towards "different perceptions of reality", lmao.

1/26/2017 6:07:11 PM

Pointing out that "mischaracterizing a position" is a different debate from "that position is unfounded" is not a retreat. It is an attempt to clarify potential confusion resulting from you shifting the goal posts. When you make up your mind which debate you want to have, we can have that debate.

I can back up everything I've said, but I do have to occasionally pause to keep you on topic. It'd help you could do that all on your own.

And I've already made the claim that NONE of the listed positions ""...suggest that Western civilization, capitalism, republicans, white men, are evil."

I'm still waiting for you to demonstrate otherwise.... Please point out specific language indicating that any of those are considered "evil" by participants in the women's march.

1/26/2017 6:29:17 PM

Here is my full quote:

Quote :

"It's all a mischaracterization of reality viewed through the lens of Marxism to suggest that Western civilization, capitalism, republicans, white men, are evil, and EVERYTHING is a form of oppression and victimhood, and the only way to solve it is through government redistribution of wealth/regulation."

Since you only seem to be fixated on the "evil" portion, let me explain how every "issue" suggests that. If I hear my neighbor scream "Violence is wrong" repeatedly to her husband, that suggests her husband is violent, make sense?

Let's say I'm "protesting" washington DC/Trump/Oppression (The left is intentionally vague here, I just included the entire list, google "Critical Theory" if you care about this part). If I am protesting a president and I say "Womens rights matter!" that implies he doesn't believe they do. If someone says "Black Lives Matter" that implies I, or someone (again, deliberately vague) thinks that they dont, and that suggests they are evil. When you criticize disparity of outcome, you criticize capitalism, because you are implying that you care about disparity of outcome more than disparity of opportunity.

So, I answered your question. I would challenge you to try mine. I think you will see my characterization applies to 100% of the issues, meaning I was right about the women's march being marxist SJW bullshit.

1/26/2017 7:08:37 PM

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2009/apr/15/tea-party-protests-taxes-barack-obama?client=safari

Lolz

1/26/2017 8:29:03 PM

^^False dichotomy.

Protesting X (where X is some complex structure, such as capitalism, Republicans, the police force,...) does not necessarily imply you are against X or think X is evil. It may simply mean some property of X is in need of improvement.

Protesting American society (or capitalism or whatever) because of disparity of opportunity does not imply you are anti-capitalist, but that some aspect of capitalism (or related structure) is imperfect or merely imperfectly implemented. Additionally, you claim that the reality is merely a disparity of outcome, not opportunity. That is certainly your prerogative, but surely you would at the very least agree that it is not a settled issue and there is yet room for debate.

I am not a BLM (or women's march) spokesperson, but in my view BLM is not anti-police, it is a protest to draw attention to aspects of policing that are inadequate or in need of reform.

You invite me to answer your question, but in all candor I am not certain which question you are referring to.

1/27/2017 12:24:49 AM

Cabbage is getting his nuts trolled off

He probably thinks he's smarter than JCE, which is why he continues to engage, but the reality is he's getting trolled hard AF.

1/27/2017 1:57:54 AM

LOL. I find it amusing.

1/27/2017 2:23:26 AM

***********************************************************
EVERYBODY PLEASE WATCH THIS and give your opinion about this

highly vocal black male Trump-supporter at the Women's March in LA

https://www.facebook.com/myiannopoulos/videos/828052167332680
***********************************************************

1/27/2017 7:14:02 AM

Quote :

"^^False dichotomy. Protesting X (where X is some complex structure, such as capitalism, Republicans, the police force,...) does not necessarily imply you are against X or think X is evil. It may simply mean some property of X is in need of improvement."

If I hold up a sign that says "Genocide is wrong" outside of Auschwitz, I'm not implying the NAZI party is evil, just in need of improvement.

Quote :

"Protesting American society (or capitalism or whatever) because of disparity of opportunity "

No, they are protesting because of disparity of outcome. That is a key difference. They are looking at something that is a disparity of outcome (Gender wage gap myth) and claiming it is a disparity of opportunity. This is what they do, all the fucking time, and the SJWs fall for it, everytime.

Quote :

" Additionally, you claim that the reality is merely a disparity of outcome, not opportunity. That is certainly your prerogative, but surely you would at the very least agree that it is not a settled issue and there is yet room for debate. "

Legally, no. Institutionally, no. You can do the retreat to "but exclusion exists, somewhere" argument, and that's fine. The women's march, however, is marching on DC after a presidential inauguration. While they can try to be as vague as possible with what they are protesting, it's pretty clear it isn't just a protest on "The abstract concept of exclusion" given the timing and location.

Quote :

"You invite me to answer your question, but in all candor I am not certain which question you are referring to."

You said I mischaracterized the women's march. So I listed the 3 criteria I said applied to every single issue, and I challenged you to find one on the list that didn't.

1/27/2017 9:45:07 AM

Quote :

"If I hold up a sign that says "Genocide is wrong" outside of Auschwitz, I'm not implying the NAZI party is evil, just in need of improvement."

Reread what I wrote and note the use of the word "necessariiy".

Quote :

"No, they are protesting because of disparity of outcome. That is a key difference. They are looking at something that is a disparity of outcome (Gender wage gap myth) and claiming it is a disparity of opportunity. This is what they do, all the fucking time, and the SJWs fall for it, everytime."

No, the word is quite literally in the text of their position:

"We believe in an economy powered by transparency, accountability, security and equity. We
believe that creating workforce opportunities that reduce discrimination against women and mothers allow economies to thrive. Nations and industries that support and invest in caregiving and basic workplace protections—including benefits like paid family leave, access to affordable childcare, sick days, healthcare, fair pay, vacation time, and healthy work environments—have shown growth and increased capacity."

and

"Rooted in the promise of America’s call for huddled masses yearning to breathe free, we believe
in immigrant and refugee rights regardless of status or country of origin. It is our moral duty to keep families together and empower all aspiring Americans to fully participate in, and contribute to, our economy and society. We reject mass deportation, family detention, violations of due process and violence against queer and trans migrants. Immigration reform must establish a roadmap to citizenship, and provide equal opportunities and workplace protections for all. We recognize that the call to action to love our neighbor is not limited to the United States, because there is a global migration crisis. We believe migration is a human right and that no human being is illegal."

..and before you bullshit, "But...(muh narrative)" please recall that the debate is on the content of the position and whether you mischaracterize it.

As others have noted, if you continue to show no sign of intellectual integrity and acknowledge you are wrong when you are clearly wrong (as these two points demonstrate). I'm done here. Debate over until you can do that, chief.

1/27/2017 10:47:03 AM

JCE, what news sources (specifically) do you consider to be factual?

1/27/2017 11:02:12 AM

I think this is where he chimes in with data interpreted all

1/27/2017 11:06:49 AM

Quote :

"No, the word is quite literally in the text of their position: "We believe in an economy powered by transparency, accountability, security and equity. We believe that creating workforce opportunities that reduce discrimination against women and mothers allow economies to thrive. Nations and industries that support and invest in caregiving and basic workplace protections—including benefits like paid family leave, access to affordable childcare, sick days, healthcare, fair pay, vacation time, and healthy work environments—have shown growth and increased capacity." "

You proved my point for me right here.

See the word I underlined? "Equity". You obviously missed it because you fell for their trick when you saw "opportunity" in the text. Just like I said, they reference a disparity of outcome, and try to convince you it is a disparity of opportunity. You fell for it hook, line, and sinker.

Also, lol at you using "necessarily" to retreat again.

Arguing with a leftist is like nailing jello to the wall, they say. You gave it a good effort though, Cabbage. I think you will find, like the rest of the TWW SJWs, its better to just spam gifs when you can't back your bullshit up.

1/27/2017 11:17:26 AM

*ahem* is this thing on?

1/27/2017 11:28:37 AM

Quote :

"Also, lol at you using "necessarily" to retreat again."

Actually, I wrote it correctly the first time; had you read it correctly the first time, I would not have had to retreat and repeat it for you a second.

Quote :

"See the word I underlined? "Equity". You obviously missed it because you fell for their trick when you saw "opportunity" in the text. Just like I said, they reference a disparity of outcome, and try to convince you it is a disparity of opportunity. You fell for it hook, line, and sinker."

LOL. Buy a dictionary.

Quote :

"1 a : justice according to natural law or right; specifically : freedom from bias or favoritism"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/equity

Quote :

"Arguing with a leftist is like nailing jello to the wall, they say. You gave it a good effort though, Cabbage. I think you will find, like the rest of the TWW SJWs, its better to just spam gifs when you can't back your bullshit up."

Bye Bye Baghdad Bob

1/27/2017 11:49:00 AM

Google "equality vs equity" and you can see how it works in the context we are discussing (Socialism vs Capitalism). Here is a picture that might help you understand (this is straight from feminist/SJW bullshit sources, so right in line with the context of the women's march)



So as you can see, the example you referenced says in the first sentence, they want economic equity (socialism) aka equality of outcome. Then, just like I have been saying, they try to convey it as an appeal for equality of opportunity, which is completely different. You fell for it because that's what SJWs do, and that's okay. The question is, after seeing the bullshit for what it is, do you change your mind, or keep squirming because you don't want to admit you're wrong?

I already know, either way it's entertaining for me.

1/27/2017 12:01:59 PM

so you're trying to prove a point with a bullshit source that you don't even find credible?

way to support your narrative.

1/27/2017 12:06:53 PM

Yes, in the bullshit language of social justice, equity means something different.

Since we are in the realm of bullshit (women's march) I have to translate their bullshit for the poor, gullible, useful idiots that were duped.

1/27/2017 12:22:08 PM

Is SJW supposed to be an insult? Because I think it sounds pretty badass.

1/27/2017 12:40:30 PM

^^oh, it can hear me....

ok, so what sources (specifically) do you deem to be factual news sources?

1/27/2017 2:03:13 PM

I don't want to change the subject so soon, I'm still enjoying Cabbage's collapse

1/27/2017 2:07:57 PM

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/behind-closed-doors-republican-lawmakers-fret-about-how-to-repeal-obamacare/2017/01/27/deabdafa-e491-11e6-a547-5fb9411d332c_story.html?utm_campaign=pubexchange&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=huffingtonpost.com&utm_term=.4af8fe0a3c64

What a bunch of hapless pussies! This is a free admission that the RNC has been using the "Repeal/Replace - Anti Obamacare" bullshit for 7 years now as a purely political powergrab. They have no fucking idea what to do. I am by no means saying that the system is perfect, or that there are not inherent issues with the ACA, but damn, they are playing with people's lives now.

I am fairly politically centric, but definitely not a nihilist or anarchist, and I have to say, the current state of events has me worried (not triggered, or crying libtard tears, or melting like a snowflake; just generally less comfortable than I was a few months ago about the state of the world and my family's likelihood of being incinerated by global conflict). PS: I don't know what SJW stands for and don't really feel like using the google machine.

JCE2011 I appreciate that you have clearly read Atlas Shrugged a few times, stop by fox news, blaze and drudge quite regularly and have well formed views on the economy, but how do you square the anti-trade, isolationism of the current administration with a pure capitalist worldview?

I think a lot of the problem is that the system as it stands has made things so binary. What TV channel do I watch when I want government to spend a bit less, regulate only in reasonably necessary circumstances (and in responsible ways), spend a bit more time monitoring entitlements and programs to ensure that those making use of them are only doing so as a mechanism for getting back on their feet (and not a fat slob in West Virginia that filed for disability at 48 and sits on the couch eating Cheetos all day collecting disability; or the asshole in Miami buying social security numbers online and filing Medicaid claims for prosthetics and electronic wheel chairs), and that a free trade/global economy is good, BUT generally believe that immigration isn't a major problem, people should be able to fuck whomever they want (in the ass, ear, nose or whatever else they can come up with), abortion is a choice that women don't take lightly (except in the most miniscule of circumstances) and if you believe in life, you can conduct yourself accordingly and instruct those around you not to engage in any sort of voluntary termination of pregnancy, but should let people that you don't know, from places and life situations that you don't understand, make their own, fully informed decisions, we've reached a point where military spending is superfluous, we have multiple warheads that could wipe out most of the population on the planet, and would be better served disarming the world, guns are generally not the best solution for a modern society, and the 2nd amendment has been grossly misinterpreted (don't forget that "militia" part; although the portly gentleman at taco bell a few weeks ago with a massive gun on his hip was probably just ensuring that tyranny didn't take over, not trying to scare and intimidate the rest of the customers because (a) his dick is small, and (b) he wasn't well liked in high school, the over-militarization of the police force is bad for everyone, there are some inequities in our society that can be worked on between everyone involved, and finally, that people on each side, who believe 100% of the bullshit that is being pressed upon them are both equally stupid, as I prefer (and don't understand what happened to ) a freethinking approach where an individual citizen gets the opportunity to take each issue separately and shape their own opinions, notwithstanding what a party tells them.

Oh yeah, the war on drugs is over, quit bringing up Reagan era "say no to drugs" propaganda. Investing taxpayer money in busting weed smokers and locking people up for decades under 3 strike rules for having 1-2 crack rocks, just isn't working. Our penal/prison system is an absolute mess/joke.

/ramble





[Edited on January 27, 2017 at 3:48 PM. Reason : .]

1/27/2017 3:36:07 PM

^^can you not multi-task?

1/27/2017 3:46:52 PM

Quote :

"ok, so what sources (specifically) do you deem to be factual news sources?"

It doesn't work that way. Each news sources has different journalists, different limitations, different spin it applies. There isn't going to be one news sources that is "factual".

In terms of the election coverage I've enjoyed alternative media and podcasts way more than the MSM, because at least those sources are honest with their biases.

1/27/2017 4:10:01 PM

Translation: I sit alone in my parent's basement and jerk off to Milo Yianopoluiiooos podcasts.

1/27/2017 4:24:35 PM

^^^^^LOL I'll continue the debate as soon as you acknowledge that "suggest that Western civilization, capitalism, republicans, white men, are evil" is a mischaracterization of the Women's March position (which, after all, was the point of the debate).

(False dichotomy...Protesting X (where X is some complex structure, such as capitalism, Republicans, the police force,...) does not necessarily imply you are against X or think X is evil. It may simply mean some property of X is in need of improvement).

It's no use arguing with an opponent too stupid/arrogant to know when he's lost the debate.

Until then



Bye Bye Baghdad Bob

1/27/2017 4:44:53 PM

Quote :

"Protesting X (where X is some complex structure, such as capitalism, Republicans, the police force,...) does not necessarily imply you are against X or think X is evil. It may simply mean some property of X is in need of improvement)"

Making up "X" and suggesting it is part of a complex structure, does imply you are against X or think X is evil.

When you are protesting such vague, ill-defined, abstract concepts and directing it towards a complex structure, the burden is on you to define what the "property" of X is that is in need of improvement. Otherwise, you are just spewing unproductive hate towards something like a child. (Aka, women's march)

Again, you're falling back on the vagueness of the protest. Surely you would agree with that characterization, the march can't even define what it wants (because if it did, it would have to admit what it is).

1/27/2017 5:14:43 PM

Quote :

"Making up "X" and suggesting it is part of a complex structure...."

What does this even mean? Are you suggesting that capitalism, Republicans, the police force,... are "made up" or not complex?

Just fuck off.

1/27/2017 5:37:27 PM