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 Message Boards » » President Trump credibility watch Page 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 ... 61, Prev Next  
JesusHChrist
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"Restore Law and Order" is a terrifying dog whistle

11/10/2016 1:10:56 PM

adultswim
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Quote :
"it's not like his VP is anti-gay or anything, right?"


That's a legitimate concern, but Trump clearly doesn't agree.

I just think it's important to give credit where it is due and push him in the right direction.

This namecalling and end of the world speculation only mskes the situation worse.

[Edited on November 10, 2016 at 1:17 PM. Reason : .]

11/10/2016 1:11:12 PM

UJustWait84
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Unfortunately, Trump has made it clear the VP will be calling a lot of the shots. He's also going to surround himself with Christie/Giuilliani types who will give him lots of advice.

[Edited on November 10, 2016 at 1:13 PM. Reason : .]

11/10/2016 1:11:52 PM

NyM410
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Quote :
"This namecalling and end of the world speculation only mskes the situation worse."


I think you would agree but I haven't seen you say much about it but would you agree that a lot of Trump's campaign was built on just this?

Every rally he told his predominantly white crowd that if they don't win their country is gone forever.

11/10/2016 1:15:16 PM

adultswim
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^
I haven't watched much footage of his rallies, but to me he's clearly talking about taking the country back from power elites...and unfortunately illegal immigrants, which is wrong. But it took the media to twist it into a message of overt bigotry.

And again, we're better than that and we realize more hate solves nothing.

11/10/2016 1:20:12 PM

UJustWait84
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I haven't called you any names. I've just said you're trivializing the situation and giving him the benefit of the doubt, when you know just as little about what will actually happen as everyone else. I'm not trying to make things personal, and I don't see any of my posts in the last few days attacking anyone on TWW, but I've seen a lot of this type of stuff on my FB feed from white dudes living in places where they'll be fine regardless of what happens, and they are in direct opposition to the posts I'm seeing from my black/latino/gay friends who are scared as fuck.

11/10/2016 1:21:07 PM

adultswim
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My bad, I didn't mean you, I mean all over social media (and regular media.)

Thankfully we have leaders like Warren and Sanders making an attempt to reel in the preemptive panic.

11/10/2016 1:23:06 PM

NyM410
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It was rarely about the elites. He would mention them more towards the end but it was always in the context of Clinton letting in millions of Syrians or immigrants. It was a pure dog-whistle so I do understand when people get frustrated when they are criticized for "crying wolf."

But I also agree with you about the hate and I really am trying to read up more on his policy and give him a chance. I will not forgive him for how he conducted himself in the campaign but I also won't condemn him for things he hasn't done yet.

11/10/2016 1:23:24 PM

TerdFerguson
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"And again, we're better than that and we realize more hate solves nothing."


Why weren't you this conciliatory after Hillary beat Bernie?

11/10/2016 1:24:15 PM

adultswim
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Because the primary was rigged in her favor the entire time, and there was no attempt at reconciliation on her part. Kaine as VP, DWS hired as campaign staff, Brazile as chairman? All a slap in the face.

This was a fair election, Trump won, and he is, so far, preaching a message of working together. We will see where it goes.

[Edited on November 10, 2016 at 1:30 PM. Reason : .]

11/10/2016 1:28:02 PM

Big4Country
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"Did everyone totally forget what shit was like before the ACA?

It's not perfect but the "skyrocketing prices" argument is borderline retarded."


I used to work for a medical supply company. One of our CEOs spoke to us about how Obamacare was causing the medical industry trouble. He was on the executive board at a local hospital. They said they were having a tough time trying to figure out ways to make medical care cheaper since the ACA added a tax to surgical equipment. Things like this also helped medical costs go up, not down. It wasn't just greedy insurance providers. I'm all for opening up the market and allowing people to buy insurance across state lines too.

11/10/2016 1:30:48 PM

NyM410
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"One of our CEOs spoke to us about how Obamacare was causing the medical industry trouble."


Lol.

I bet John Stumpf hates oversight and regulation too.

[Edited on November 10, 2016 at 1:33 PM. Reason : X]

11/10/2016 1:31:57 PM

UJustWait84
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I can't wait for the cost of healthcare to plummet and return to Pre-Obama care days. Gonna be great!

11/10/2016 1:32:40 PM

bdmazur
California Dreamin'
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Any predictions on cabinet positions? State, Defense, Education, Attorney General?

11/10/2016 1:45:37 PM

UJustWait84
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/donald-trump-president-supporters-attack-muslims-hijab-hispanics-lgbt-hate-crime-wave-us-election-a7410166.html

Again, NBD everyone. Calm down.

11/10/2016 2:51:48 PM

Big4Country
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^I don't get was the crazies on both sides act like they do.

11/10/2016 3:02:08 PM

stevedude
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Obama and Trump at the White House today.

11/10/2016 3:14:27 PM

Shrike
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Quote :
"@intlspectator
BREAKING: Members of Trump campaign told Middle Eastern officials to ignore 'campaign rhetoric' and that actual policy will be 'different'"


Welp.

11/10/2016 3:14:30 PM

NyM410
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^ this was always going to happen but

^^^^ this is what you have to worry about because of his rhetoric (though some of those stories seem a bit hyperbolic)

11/10/2016 3:16:44 PM

JesusHChrist
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"I didn't say economics didn't play a role, but you're not gonna sell me on white folks making >$50k in rural Pennsylvania, Michigan, or Wisconsin where cost of living is relatively low having a rough go of it compared to the average American. Maybe they aren't driving Benz's and drinking top shelf liquor, but they aren't fighting for scraps either."


I'd just like to point out how dangerously condescending and dismissive this attitude is, and to draw the obvious parallel of old school republicans using this exact same logic toward "welfare queens."

Honestly, I think its embarrassing that the Democratic Party has basically adopted this level of contempt for the working class, and I think it's a pretty Bigly reason why they just lost the rust belt and a huge reason why I left the party (along with the party turning a blind eye on civil liberty abuses).


And as the numbers pour in, the data is going to back up that notion:

Trump Was Stronger Where The Economy Is Weaker

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trump-was-stronger-where-the-economy-is-weaker/


Keep in mind that these are some of the same voters who, in 2008, voted for a black man. So while yes, there are certainly undertones of racism, xenophobia, misogyny, you name it percolating from that swath of the electorate, a simple dismissal and contemptuous attitude doesn't help. AT ALL.

A more thorough analysis would question what factors allow those levels of fear, paranoia, and scapegoating to rise to the surface of a party platform, and the answer to that question is almost always economical. These people have watched trade deals decimate their economic stability, and when a strongman candidate comes in and points the finger at an establishment politician (as well as "shadowy outsiders") as the cause of their suffering, they listen.

Now, he's not going to help them one goddamn bit, but in an election that doesn't matter. He tapped in to that anger. The Clinton campaign thought that this election would be an audition for who would be a better "statesman," and thought that being dignified and carrying herself with class and grace would resonate with economically depressed voters rather than expressing their frustration and resentment. That was a horrible miscalculation on the part of the Democratic Party, and it has seriously damaged the brand.

And honestly, as long as the party continues to dismiss the very real concerns of this part of the electorate, they are going to keep losing votes. This is bad. And a very frank and honest diagnosis needs to happen if the party ever wants to get back into power.

[Edited on November 10, 2016 at 3:27 PM. Reason : ]

11/10/2016 3:23:00 PM

TerdFerguson
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I recommend the Dems adopt a "bootstrap" argument:

"You got out competed by a non-English speaking immigrant with a fourth grade education? Maybe you can bootstrap yourself into the local community college, how bout that?"

[Edited on November 10, 2016 at 3:40 PM. Reason : Bootstraps worked for these people whenever black economic woes are brought up, it should apply here]

11/10/2016 3:39:23 PM

NyM410
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It's going to be a long road ahead for the party. As you said, it is imperative that they reach out to those people but they cannot and must not do it in the manner Trump did. It's easy to fall into that trap and adopt the harsher rhetoric (Bill Clinton did this to a large extent) that the GOP has used.

There has got to be a way to connect with that demographic while at the same time remain committed to diversity and inclusion. What that looks like, I have no idea. It could simply by showing some empathy and acknowledging that these people aren't all in a position of privilege (something I'm quite guilty of myself).

Quote :
"Now, he's not going to help them one goddamn bit, but in an election that doesn't matter. He tapped in to that anger."


For what it's worth, I think this is worse than ignoring them completely but neither should be examples on how to campaign and govern.

[Edited on November 10, 2016 at 3:44 PM. Reason : X]

11/10/2016 3:42:26 PM

moron
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^
My initial thought is the democrats should sharpen their message around solving inequality. If they just preach inequality, the rest of the progressive platform will follow naturally from this.

Bernie tended to do this, but clinton could never get her message out.

11/10/2016 3:51:04 PM

JesusHChrist
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For what it's worth, I think this is worse than ignoring them completely but neither should be examples on how to campaign and govern."


Oh, of course it's worse. But the point is that he tapped into populist rage. The Obama campaign ('08) did as well, but the Clinton campaign fundamentally misunderstood the stakes. Her "pragmatic incrementalism" doesn't mean shit to people who have no market skills, no chance of upward mobility, and only physical labor to offer.

The Democratic Party thought they could win on the appearance of social progress and by only appealing to the metropolitan professional classes. That was obviously incorrect

11/10/2016 3:52:12 PM

OopsPowSrprs
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They could also promise and deliver on free healthcare and free college.

Not "debt free" and if this and if that for these people blah blah. FREE.

11/10/2016 3:53:00 PM

TerdFerguson
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Ok, just got done reading that 538 piece and it's hardly damning. Correlation with age was just as strong as his selected economic metrics.

11/10/2016 3:53:51 PM

Shrike
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"I'd just like to point out who dangerously condescending this attitude is, and to draw the obvious parallel of old school republicans using this exact same logic toward "welfare queens."

Honestly, I think its embarrassing that the Democratic Party has basically adopted this level of contempt for the working class, and I think it's a pretty Bigly reason why they just lost the rust belt and a huge reason why I left the party (along with the party turning a blind eye on civil liberty abuses)."


Nope, it's completely different because the entire concept of "welfare queens" was a lie based in racism and contempt for spending "muh tax dollars" on supporting poor minorities. Even if the resentment over losing factory jobs is real, no one working the assembly line was ever making $90k+/year. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's the truth.

Furthermore, I'm not a politician, nor did my "attitude" have anything to do with Hillary's campaign, so caricaturing her in my image is just a false pretense. Her campaign advocated for policies that WOULD actually HELP these people and attacked her opponent for ACTUALLY spending his entire career SHITTING on these very same working class people. She advocated for a national increase in the minimum wage and healthcare reform that would immediatly improve their lives. She advocated for cheaper education, both universities and technical schools, so these people could aspire to something BETTER than a factory job. She advocated for tax and economic policy that would revitalize these communities by directing more money towards them.

Trump, on the other hand, spent his entire career directly shitting on working people. There is direct evidence of that, from the multiple lawsuits by unpaid workers, to his comments about the minimum wage, and his abuse of tax law to benefit himself. They didn't care about or believe any of it, but were totally willing to believe every horrible thing said about Hillary despite the utter lack of evidence supporting his accusations. Why should I feel sorry for them? They were willing participants in being conned and now they are going to pay for it.

So I completely reject the notion that Hillary ignored these people. Did she effectively communicate to them? No. Should she have spent more time talking directly to them? Absolutely, and we're now seeing that even people within' her campaign, like Bill (that's what his Obamacare comments were all about), were pleading with her to reach out to those rural Democrats more directly. She didn't, and she paid for it, so yeah, I hope the Democrats realize that was a mistake. But this wasn't about policy, it was about image and messaging.

11/10/2016 3:54:14 PM

dtownral
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these people saw their towns gutted by NAFTA and jobs moved away but they aren't fighting for scraps so we should ignore them because they aren't doing that bad. organized labor will make sure they vote democrat.


these are famous last words of the democratic party

11/10/2016 4:00:14 PM

JesusHChrist
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I'm agreeing with you that it was about optics.


And your only defense of her is that she's a highly skilled technocrat, and then you go into the weeds about how she could make incremental adjustments rather than take a blow torch to the whole system


Which is exactly the point I'm trying to make.

11/10/2016 4:03:30 PM

Shrike
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^^That's just not true. NAFTA isn't the reason the American automotive industry dried up. The American automotive industry dried up because they made shitty cars for nearly 30 years and everyone started buying Toyotas and Hondas. Manufacturing dried up because it all moved to China, which the N(orth)A(merican)FTA had nothing to do with.

11/10/2016 4:11:48 PM

adultswim
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Still not getting it. You may disagree, but the people who voted for Trump blame NAFTA.

11/10/2016 4:15:07 PM

Shrike
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So she should have lied to them too? What exactly are you saying that she should have done that she didn't do, other than what I already said?

11/10/2016 4:17:48 PM

Exiled
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There probably wasn't more that she could have done, to be fair. She just shouldn't have been up there to begin with.

11/10/2016 4:19:58 PM

JesusHChrist
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"Furthermore, I'm not a politician, nor did my "attitude" have anything to do with Hillary's campaign, so caricaturing her in my image is just a false pretense."


No, but you absolutely embody the caricature of a cultural elite "liberal" that the working class now despises, because you say shit like this:

Quote :
"Why should I feel sorry for them? They were willing participants in being conned and now they are going to pay for it. "


You have contempt for working class labor. And you wonder why the (rapidly diminishing) union workers no longer support the dems and view them as part of the elite professional enemy? Hmmmmm....


Man. The Democratic has seriously transformed during our lifetimes.

11/10/2016 4:21:01 PM

Shrike
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^Again, what does that have to do with Hillary's campaign? She didn't run as a cultural elite "liberal" who had contempt for the working class. On the contrary, as I pointed out, her policies would have helped the working class more than almost any other faction of society. I have contempt for people who can't separate fact from fiction. I have contempt for people who voted for Donald Trump despite the fact that he was an obvious bigot.

11/10/2016 4:26:29 PM

dtownral
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Quote :
"So she should have lied to them too? What exactly are you saying that she should have done that she didn't do, other than what I already said?"


you can talk energetically about the issue without lying, clinton never even tried

i don't think sanders had to lie anyone

Quote :
"She didn't run as a cultural elite "liberal" who had contempt for the working class. "

yes, she really did, and all you fucking little democratic shills talked trash about working white people the hole fucking time.

[Edited on November 10, 2016 at 4:29 PM. Reason : .]

11/10/2016 4:28:58 PM

JesusHChrist
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The Democratic Party demonstrated they didn't give a fuck about working class people when they pushed Bernie to the side on account of him not being a pragmatic answer (even though he polled better against Trump than Clinton.)

I mean, democrats turned their backs against labor long before that, but that was the most recent example.


They instead pushed through a candidate who doesn't excite labor workers. It backfired.

[Edited on November 10, 2016 at 4:30 PM. Reason : ]

11/10/2016 4:29:01 PM

JesusHChrist
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"Correlation with age was just as strong as his selected economic metrics."



Sure, but old people voting conservative is hardly surprising. That's a demographic that democrats anticipate losing and usually doesn't move the needle, so it doesn't really warrant the same level of analysis. Losing labor stings much more, because it's a voting bloc democrats historically control.

11/10/2016 4:36:17 PM

bdmazur
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"i don't think sanders had to lie anyone"


Even to a fault, he refused to filter his past and his views for the future. He never once had to dodge a question of scandal or character. He had real step-by-step plans of how to help the poor and disenfranchised.

It's clear by people's behavior that electing Trump has made them feel that they have a right to treat immigrants, gays, Muslims, etc like crap. If Bernie had been elected, just maybe it would be the dreamers and visionaries coming out of the woodwork.

11/10/2016 4:38:41 PM

NyM410
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I think it is important to note that there is a way forward. It is probably a more progressive path given demographics. The GOP did wildly overperform their own expectations but they are a ticking time bomb given how Trump did it. They sealed their fate in the short and intermediate term this cycle.

The Democrats can bring some of these people back into the fold and become very attractive to the younger more progressive group. But it must be at the expense of some of the big donor base.

[Edited on November 10, 2016 at 4:42 PM. Reason : X]

11/10/2016 4:41:05 PM

Shrike
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Quote :
"yes, she really did, and all you fucking little democratic shills talked trash about working white people the hole fucking time. "


Give me one example where a Democrat associated with Hillary's campaign talked trash about working white people. You can pillory me all you want, but Hillary didn't lose because of liberal elitist douchebags posting on a defunct internet forum.

Quote :
"They instead pushed through a candidate who doesn't excite labor workers. It backfired."


I agree, but it had nothing to do with her policies or ideals. This was purely due to people's preconceived notions, Democrats included, of her character. Even Trump's campaign manager said it, Hillary was incredibly easy to run against because they didn't have to spend any time defining her, only reinforcing what people already thought.

The bottom line is Democrats, especially working class ones, don't like legacy politicians and never have. Gore, Kerry, Hillary, what do they all have in common? Bill and Obama were both viewed as outsiders or fresh faces when they burst on the national scene. Republicans will turn out and vote for anyone who tells them what they want to hear, but Democrats need to actually be inspired to vote. Who that's going to be for 2020, I have no idea yet.

[Edited on November 10, 2016 at 4:54 PM. Reason : .]

11/10/2016 4:49:00 PM

TerdFerguson
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Quote :
" Losing labor stings much more, because it's a voting bloc democrats historically control."


No democrat running for president has even broken into the 40% range for whites without a college education (I'm subbing that in For white working class) since 1980.

Why haven't black working class people abandoned democrats over NAFTA?

11/10/2016 4:50:09 PM

JesusHChrist
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There's a huge difference between what you said vs. what I said. I'm talking about historical union members (Rust Belt)

Organized labor MADE the midwest. Organized labor never existed in the southeast.

[Edited on November 10, 2016 at 5:07 PM. Reason : ]

11/10/2016 4:52:17 PM

TerdFerguson
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Ah I understand now, I missed the switch from talking about the White working class to talking about the working class in organized labor.

Perhaps the democrats can do nothing and these people will come back? 4 years of Trump et al administering the NLRB should be a good opportunity to start a discussion with them.

11/10/2016 5:38:06 PM

moron
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Hillary tried telling coal workers the truth about coal-- coal jobs are gone-- and was roasted for it.

If she were a better politician she would have been able to parry these attacks, but she's a bureaucrat and seems to have forgotten how to connect with people. This defeat cuts deep for the democrats. If trump by some miracle is not an abysmal president, they have the opportunity to own 2020 though.

Still, she got more votes and it wouldn't have taken much for her to win. We can still blame our media, which I can't see getting anything but worse with brietbart now the king is conservative news:

http://www.salon.com/2016/11/10/how-the-media-made-this-monster-they-normalized-donald-trump-and-demonized-hillary-clinton-and-its-not-over/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=socialflow&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

11/10/2016 6:15:21 PM

JesusHChrist
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^^Don't think it'll be that simple, unfortunately.

Call me a fatalist, but there's an endless supply of boogeymen that have been laid out during this campaign. We are going to have a president that openly fans the flames of intolerance toward MULTIPLE ethnic and religious groups. And make no mistake, a Republican owned house, Senate, and soon to be supreme court is going to undue the past 8 years immediately.

Shit is gonna get real hairy for the already marginalized.

Sorry man, but I see very little reason for optimism right now. If you're a progressive, you need to let go of the illusion that electoral politics can be reformed from within and seriously start considering activism and mobilization as genuine form of political reform.

I imagine that the "occupy" movement will have a revival. Whether or not it is crushed again remains to be seen.

11/10/2016 6:27:09 PM

The E Man
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Democrats truly are the new republicans. There is almost no difference.

-American exceptionalism
-#notmypresident
-Foreign Intervention
-Cozy with the banks
-Namecalling "uneducated"
-"ALL OF OUR RIGHTS WILL BE GONE"

11/10/2016 6:29:11 PM

UJustWait84
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Horrible examples you've got there

11/10/2016 7:07:47 PM

The E Man
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I'm just being petty AF right now because I'm shocked trump won. I didn't want hillary but i never thought trump had a chance. I blame the democrats and still think this would've happened in 2020 if not now and its all because of weak liberals ruining the reputation of the left.

11/10/2016 7:19:09 PM

Geppetto
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If you didn't vote Hillary, then you can only point fingers at yourself.

11/10/2016 7:37:43 PM

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