if you disagree with a war for strategic reasons: stfu, suck it up and catch that bullet, man. ur a f'in soldier - you have no right to give me lip

if you disagree with a war for moral reasons: wtf are you doing still fighting? you're scum. you're not "just following orders" - you're murdering people and their blood is on your hands

8/8/2005 11:50:02 AM

Bodies fill the fields I see, hungry heroes end
No one to play soldier now, no one to pretend
Running blind through killing fields, bred to kill them all
Victims of what said should be
A servant `till I fall

Soldier boy, made of clay
Now an empty shell
Twenty one, only son
But he served us well
Bred to kill, not to care
Do just as we say
Finished here, greetings death
He's yours to take away

Back to the front
You will do what I say, when I say
Back to the front
You will die when I say, you must die
Back to the front
You coward
You servant
You blindman

Barking of machine gun fire, does nothing to me now
Sounding of the clock that ticks, get used to it somehow
More a man, more stripes you bare, glory seeker trends
Bodies fill the fields I see
The slaughter never ends

Soldier boy, made of clay
Now an empty shell
Twenty one, only son
But he served us well
Bred to kill, not to care
Do just as we say
Finished here, greetings death
He's yours to take away

Back to the front
You will do what I say, when I say
Back to the front
You will die when I say, you must die
Back to the front
You coward
You servant
You blindman

Why, am I dying?
Kill, have no fear
Lie, live off lying
Hell, hell is here

Why, am I dying?
Kill, have no fear
Lie, live off lying
Hell, hell is here

I was born for dying

Life planned out before my birth, nothing could I say
Had no chance to see myself, moulded day by day
Looking back I realize, nothing have I done
Left to die with only friend
Alone I clench my gun

Soldier boy, made of clay
Now an empty shell
Twenty one, only son
But he served us well
Bred to kill, not to care
Do just as we say
Finished here, greetings death
He's yours to take away

Back to the front
You will do what I say, when I say
Back to the front
You will die when I say, you must die
Back to the front
You coward
You servant
You blindman

Back to the front
Back to the front
Back to the front
Back to the front
Back to the front

8/8/2005 11:52:10 AM

So are you calling US troops murderers?

8/8/2005 12:21:26 PM

Go go Metallica!!

8/8/2005 1:03:58 PM

you're wrong for a couple of reasons.

1. it's a major stretch to call killing a subhuman terrorist "murder". fuck those guys.

2. if you accidentally kill a non-combatant, that's awful, and of course we should take every reasonable effort against this, but that's not murder, either.

3. when you join the military, you forfeit your right to make policy decisions like this. you have the right obligation to refuse to carry out actions in the vein of, say, the My Lai massacre, but you don't have the right to say "I don't like the war in Iraq, and I'm not going."

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 1:20 PM. Reason : and Disposable Heroes, along with the rest of Master Of Puppets, is awesome.]

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 1:24 PM. Reason : oh wait, read it again...you're pointing out the double standard.]

8/8/2005 1:19:17 PM

did you just call someone a subhuman?

gg

your training has gone well

8/8/2005 2:59:34 PM

there's a distinction between disagreeing with policy for strategic reasons. maybe you think its a total bonehead move to invade iraq - doesn't matter, suck it up and fight.

but if you think its morally wrong, there's NOTHING in this world that can absolve you of your individual responsibility to your own code of morals and ethics. there is NO paper you can sign, NO oath you can swear, NO allegiance you can pledge, that can excuse a deliberate violation of your personal morals or ethics.

8/8/2005 3:09:06 PM

The trick is balancing your naive idealism and your realism.

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 3:12 PM. Reason : .]

8/8/2005 3:11:35 PM

i doubt that many people in the military will disagree w/ a war for moral reasons... If so, they wouldn't have joined the military.

8/8/2005 3:13:13 PM

" Its just murder. All of god's creatures do it."
---Mickey

8/8/2005 3:21:33 PM

they need to either stfu about their opposition or turn themselves in to the brig.

cause otherwise they're whiners or murderers

8/8/2005 3:41:50 PM

Quote :

"The trick is balancing your naive idealism and your realism."

8/8/2005 4:03:10 PM

^ Did you just quote yourself?

8/8/2005 6:49:01 PM

I did indeed. Obviously nerdBoy missed it the first time.

8/8/2005 7:27:42 PM

WE ARE THE HOLLOW MEN

8/8/2005 7:47:50 PM

Quote :

"did you just call someone a subhuman? gg your training has gone well "

dude, the Marines don't waste time brainwashing you about how enemy combatants are subhuman. we expend our efforts teaching how to kill them. i don't think many officers and senior enlisted Marines would WANT us developing an attitude of our enemies being subhuman in most instances (like fighting a uniformed, standing army), because in reality, those guys are just like us...but on the other side.

i, for one, don't extend that level of respect to the pieces of shit we're fighting in iraq...guerillas who terrorize civilians by bombing them, kidnapping and beheading them, robbing them, etc.

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 9:27 PM. Reason : asfd]

8/8/2005 9:25:39 PM

there's nothing naive or idealistic about having the courage to live according to your morals or ethics

i didn't miss what you said - i ignored it, because it doesn't have anything to do with this thread

[Edited on August 9, 2005 at 7:42 AM. Reason : s]

8/9/2005 7:41:39 AM

Quote :

"did you just call someone a subhuman? gg your training has gone well"

8/9/2005 7:55:05 AM

Sure, terrorists are "human," but only because they share the same genetics as you and me. Outside of that, they're not worth more than the shit stain inside your underwear.

if you're a smartass sitting at home with nothing better to do than say stupid shit about the military: post on TWW

8/9/2005 10:13:24 AM

Sadly black and white morals are generally not applicable in real life. It feels good to tell yourself that you would go to jail to avoid fighting in a war that you are morally opposed to, but its not that simple. While theres nothing naive or idealistic about living by your morals, it is terribly naive and optimistic to make a broad moral generalization and apply it to all military personel.

What about support troops that don't see combat? Are they murderers too? The vast majority of troops in Iraq have never fired a weapon at another person. Do they have blood on their hands?

What if I only have 6 months left in my enlistment? Should I spend upwards of 5 years in prison because I didn't feel like fixing humvees in Iraq for a few months?

What if my family is supported by my military salary and lives on base? Should I subject them to poverty and homelessness while I sit in prison?

This has everything to do with this thread because it deals with the application of your idealistic "perfect world" morality in the real world.

8/9/2005 10:18:13 AM

Woah, since when do you have to go to jail? See, this is why people outside the military should never talk shit about stuff they don't know. It's called a conscientious objection, and it doesn't send you to jail. We had a sailor on my ship claim this after converting to Quaker for his/her marriage. The Navy put him/her behind a desk in supply support and discharged him/her, honorably, after he/she had finished their obligated service.

Now if somebody just goes AWOL and doesn't file as a CO, then yeah, they can go to the brig. But that's their fault for not following the proper procedures.

[Edited on August 9, 2005 at 10:24 AM. Reason : .]

8/9/2005 10:24:02 AM

Cool. I was basing that on nerdBoy's "turn themselves into the brig" line. My bad.

8/9/2005 10:28:30 AM

Quote :

"if you're a smartass sitting at home with nothing better to do than say stupid shit about the military: post on TWW"

if you want i could have made a long response about how i hate our racist history of imperial domination and how i dont like the current blatant racism and propoganda in todays military in particular in more elite levels like the special forces but i didnt want to get into it. i could have gone into a rant about how many of our military campaigns degraded into race wars, but i wont. no, instead i think i'll just go read some ayn rand and enjoy the superficially logical ideas that give white, socially retarded, working class neophytes just enough acumen to make them burtally narrow-minded. i guess enough of that and i will lose any capacity for understanding community and can enjoy the world through those rose colored glasses that seem to be so enjoyable

8/9/2005 10:29:18 AM

Quote :

"blatant racism and propoganda in todays military in particular in more elite levels like the special forces but i didnt want to get into it"

the only thing i can think of is...jesus christ, and you think we're the brainwashed ones? whew...

[Edited on August 9, 2005 at 10:51 AM. Reason : we disagree here and agree over there...oh well, that's what's great!]

8/9/2005 10:46:53 AM

you are denying the open racism that exists in the military? in particular the more elite units? wow

8/9/2005 10:54:42 AM

i haven't seen this "blatant racism", either.

and our history of imperial domination? don't shoot the messenger.

8/9/2005 12:13:06 PM

well everything i have learned has been about the army, i'd be surprised to find the marines any different though

8/9/2005 1:06:57 PM

8/9/2005 1:10:28 PM

Quote :

"did you just call someone a subhuman? gg your training has gone well"

lollercaust

8/9/2005 1:11:28 PM

if you think its strategically wrong to fight a battle, then you're just following orders as you kill the enemy

however, if you think it is MORALLY wrong to fight a battle, then you are committing murder by killing the enemy - you're not "just following orders" at all, because it is not possible to justify obedience to an order that conflicts with your set of morals.

[Edited on August 9, 2005 at 2:47 PM. Reason : s]

8/9/2005 2:46:58 PM

What about support troops that don't see combat? Are they murderers too? The vast majority of troops in Iraq have never fired a weapon at another person. Do they have blood on their hands?

8/9/2005 2:49:50 PM

i'm not even sure what "blatent racism" you're talking about, though...i'm lost on that one.

8/9/2005 2:56:13 PM

pre-1948 maybe?

8/9/2005 2:57:40 PM

And he's fighting for democracy,
He's fighting for the Reds,
He says it's for the peace of all,
He's the one who must decide,
Who's to live and who's to die,
And he never sees the writing on the wall.

8/9/2005 3:00:41 PM

^^exactly, the military has historically been ahead of society in terms of race issues.


and nerdBoy, what if they have no qualms whatsoever with killing the people they are killing? do YOU still view them as murderers? i have a hard time believing otherwise based on what i've read so far.

just as long as you don't turn around and lie by saying "oh, my beef is with the politicians. i'm against the war, but i support our troops."

[Edited on August 9, 2005 at 3:03 PM. Reason : ^^]

8/9/2005 3:02:52 PM

Quote :

" what if they have no qualms whatsoever with killing the people they are killing?"

what if the bum on the street has no qualms killing the rich guy that he hates

murder is murder. if you think that MORALLY you shouldn't be over there killing people, then you're committing murder. otoh, if you just think its dumb strategically, then you're only doing your job.

[Edited on August 9, 2005 at 3:08 PM. Reason : s]

8/9/2005 3:07:25 PM

What about support troops that don't see combat? Are they murderers too? The vast majority of troops in Iraq have never fired a weapon at another person. Do they have blood on their hands?

8/9/2005 3:10:31 PM

that's kind of a weird definition of murder. i'm glad our courts don't have such a relativistic view of the matter.

i mean, let me get this straight...if i'm ordered to kill someone, and i want to do it, or at least don't mind, then i've done nothing wrong.

but if i didn't want to do it, and i did it b/c i was ordered to, then i'm a murderer.


uhhhhhhh

ok.

8/9/2005 3:10:47 PM

I don't believe in murder in warfare. They are the enemy, they carry weapons. They spend every waking moment thinking about killing you. It’s real easy to kill, just index the proper range, align the reticule and let the brain tell the finger to squeeze.

Quote :

"you are denying the open racism that exists in the military? In particular the more elite units? "

Uh, sure, I'll pony up. Fuck ya. You spend any time with a unit of people trained to fight and you'll learn racism has no place. I've been in many Army units, so let me tell you about internal racism. You'll find the military is much more equal then any other aspect of society within the U.S. I've known only a very few number of racists in the military and I know what happens to them. They are generally new recruits. In a normal unit (unlike normal society) if someone is dumb enough to be a racist, he gets a good deal of peer attitude correction. Then later on he learns what equality is in the military. It’s suffering the same shitty circumstances and counting on those guys to back you up. I've never known any kind of racism to last in the military. In fact I quite often have seen the opposite. You'll find however, once again unlike popular society, a much more open discussion and attitude towards race. It isn't snow white and the 7 dwarfs. I don't deny that a small minority of people may harbor such attitudes, but to make such a statement is simply ignorant and shows a true lack of educational understanding outside of popular television.

[Edited on August 9, 2005 at 3:14 PM. Reason : oxymoron]

8/9/2005 3:11:33 PM

Quote :

"i mean, let me get this straight...if i'm ordered to kill someone, and i want to do it, or at least don't mind, then i've done nothing wrong. but if i didn't want to do it, and i did it b/c i was ordered to, then i'm a murderer. uhhhhhhh ok."

clearly i'm talking about the responsibility that one has to his or her own self. I understand that you are having trouble with this concept.

Quote :

"gg your training has gone well"

8/9/2005 3:14:21 PM

Quote :

"if you're a smartass sitting at home with nothing better to do than say stupid shit about the military: post on TWW"

I fucking hate this line of reasoning. I have every fucking right to criticize the fucking military and guess what, you aren't defending my freedom in Iraq. In fact you, aren't defending anyone's freedom at the moment. So lose your fucking attitude about how picked on you are. I hate your military hubris.

8/9/2005 3:14:51 PM

^worlds smallest violin

8/9/2005 3:16:18 PM

yep, the military is much less racist than society at large, from everything that i've seen.

Quote :

"I don't believe in murder in warfare. "

i believe in murder in warfare. see My Lai, for one of the more extreme examples.

or how about 2nd Lt Pantano, USMC? he was recently charged with murder for his actions in Iraq. the charges were dropped, but i think that there's a pretty good case to be made that what he did is legally murder...but i also believe that he probably did the right thing. that sounds insane, i know, unless you're quite familier with the situation.

Quote :

"clearly i'm talking about the responsibility that one has to his or her own self. I understand that you are having trouble with this concept. "

i'm not having trouble with anything. you don't think i've thought A LOT about killing other human beings and the moral issues associated with it? you claiming that i'm having trouble with that concept is like me telling stephen hawking that i think he's struggling with quantum mechanics.

i'm picking YOUR brain to see what in the hell's going through it (trust me, i settled all of this in my own mind before most of us had even heard of Osama bin Laden, Fallujah, etc). i'm actually finding that you're not QUITE as crazy as i originally thought. i don't think you're on track by any means, but i can see your line of reasoning.

[Edited on August 9, 2005 at 3:23 PM. Reason : asdf]

8/9/2005 3:17:34 PM

nerdBoy:

What about support troops that don't see combat? Are they murderers too? The vast majority of troops in Iraq have never fired a weapon at another person. Do they have blood on their hands?

8/9/2005 3:18:37 PM

^^^you've been playing the world's smallest violin for a while.

boofuckinghoo someone made fun of the military. I should cry to mommy.

Quote :

"but i also believe that he probably did the right thing"

That man committed murder in cold blood. Nothing he did can be construed as right.

[Edited on August 9, 2005 at 3:22 PM. Reason : .]

8/9/2005 3:18:52 PM

^^ it depends on whether or not they think that it is MORALLY wrong for them to be over there providing immediate logistical support for the war. I know that you're trying to lure me into the trap, "omfg being american means you're supporting the economy that pays for the murderous war" but I'm not going to fall for it. Because I don't think the Iraq war is murderous. And I certainly don't think that it is morally wrong to participate in an economy that is funding the war.

8/9/2005 3:22:07 PM

Well Pantano's case, not so much on the inside scoop. However......well we'll leave others unposted for this forum. My Lai, okay, got it, agreed. I was speaking more or less within the linear battlefield spectrum. However, with the topic of My Lai and I am no way justifying it, there have been some number of different but sucessful historical examples. One in particular is the involvment by the French of a BN of former SS in Vietnam. Had some very surprising tactics and results.

As for nut.....i'm sorry your inner child still cries, clowns can still love little boys that are touched specially.

[Edited on August 9, 2005 at 3:27 PM. Reason : .]

8/9/2005 3:23:13 PM

Quote :

"I know that you're trying to lure me into the trap, "omfg being american means you're supporting the economy that pays for the murderous war" but I'm not going to fall for it."

No actually, I was just intersted in your opinion. Thanks for the paranoia though.

8/9/2005 3:25:08 PM

Quote :

"As for nut.....i'm sorry your inner child still cries, clowns can still love little boys that are touched specially."

Please, I worry about the military as much I worry about whether or not I'm having coffee for breakfast tomorrow. Which is not at all. But lately the neo-cons and military douches have been walking around like they are attacked by everyone. Cry me a fucking River.

8/9/2005 3:31:02 PM

Quote :

"pre-1948 maybe?"

or like currently
at least as recently as the invasion of haiti i know for a fact

maybe theres been a massive change

8/9/2005 3:32:15 PM