... for now

http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press/105827/article.html

Quote :

"Edmunds.com found that during the first five years of ownership, a hybrid can cost as much as $5,283 more than its non-hybrid counterpart. "

Nice article. Also gives how much gas should cost for yoru to break even with a hybrid, or alternatively, how much you should be driving per year to break even.

9/17/2005 6:09:37 PM

they markup the price on those suckers

9/17/2005 9:26:27 PM

sounds like bullshit

wheres the breakdown of the math? what about after 5 years?

9/17/2005 11:09:06 PM

After 5 years they get even more expensive to maintain. You would have to drive 24x7 in city traffic for the entire time you own the car in order to save money.

[Edited on September 18, 2005 at 12:16 AM. Reason : costs should get better though]

9/18/2005 12:15:28 AM

the batterys required for these hybrids are out of sight

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

9/18/2005 12:21:07 AM

this is kinda [old], the last few hybrid threads were trolled to death with similar articles/studies

but while we're at it, I was under the impression that hybrids used capacitors and not batteries... I've also seen some of the capacitors "developed for hybrids" marketed for other purposes... what's all this about batteries?

[Edited on September 18, 2005 at 12:28 AM. Reason : kthx to enlighten]

9/18/2005 12:25:39 AM

Hmm, just searched for more info on the hybrids + batteries...

http://hybridcars.about.com/od/hybridcarfaq/f/electriconly.htm

That link points out "full hybrids", which I believe have batteries.

It makes mentions of "mild hybrids" (see: http://hybridcars.about.com/od/hybrids101/a/howhybridswork.htm ). I imagine that those use capacitors.

I would guess that a "mild hybrid" would be the better way to go with those cars. Should save you gas and you won't have to worry about a battery (but I wonder about how long those capacitors will last).

9/18/2005 1:02:35 AM

I know someone with a Civic Huybrid. They told me the batteries are warrantied for a full 10 years. After 10 years of owning a Civic, it probably wont be worth much anyway.

And this is the kinda fuzzy math that can cut both ways... For example, if I were interested in buynig a Hybrid, I would know I am going to put more money up front to reduce my operational costs for the life of the car. If you dont won't gas to become a significant portion of your monthly expenses, then a hybrid could definitely mitigate the impact. Whereas the additional cost of the loan to get a hybird will be fixed (easy to plan for), the operational costs are not, and its peace of mind to know that gas could double and you'd be paying about the same as a normal car owner would have paid before the double.

In other words, buying a Hybrid is a hedge bet...

[Edited on September 18, 2005 at 1:54 AM. Reason : .]

9/18/2005 1:53:38 AM

Quote :

"but while we're at it, I was under the impression that hybrids used capacitors and not batteries... I've also seen some of the capacitors "developed for hybrids" marketed for other purposes... what's all this about batteries?"

Some of the first prototype hybrids were running just off caps, but thats basically useless for real world driving (no idea WHY they came to that conclusion, but thats what every PR person I asked at the car shows shoved back at me)

SO now they run off Li polymer batteries, which is fucking rediculous. As I have stated in previous threads, and is once again reinforced here,

Quote :

"And this is the kinda fuzzy math that can cut both ways... For example, if I were interested in buynig a Hybrid, I would know I am going to put more money up front to reduce my operational costs for the life of the car. If you dont won't gas to become a significant portion of your monthly expenses, then a hybrid could definitely mitigate the impact."

WRONG WRONG WRONG. You INCREASE operational costs, because the damn things aren't as reliable as their non-hybrid counterparts. They DONT get any significantly better gas mileage (VW Golf TDI gets better mileage for less money in a better car), the batteries will not last 10 years, warranty or not and after that 10 years you are stuck with a lot of extra dead weight in the car and expensive as shit brakes.
HYBRID IS A SCAM

[Edited on September 18, 2005 at 8:59 AM. Reason : . ]

9/18/2005 8:56:49 AM

ive been telling tww that all along

9/18/2005 9:16:08 AM

Noen, if the car is under warranty, how is this costing me anything?

And after 10 years, I would hope you are ready for a new car. After 10 years, the car will only be worth about 3% of its original value, so even if you have to scrap it, you lose very little.

I believe the Prius (or whatever the name is) gets about 60 mpg. Considering hybrids have been around for about 4 years, and diesels have been around for a lot longer, its reasonable to say that Hybrids have a lot of room for improvement, and they should see siginificantly better gas mileage in a few years.

You obviously know a lot more than I do about cars, but I know a pretty good amount about economics. As soon as these cars become less of a novelty, the prices will come down, maintenance will be cheaper and more available, and they will become more and more efficient. There is less than 5 or 6 production hybrids at this time, so its a safe bet we can say hybrid is in its first generation. I am not a greenpeace guy, and know a battery hybrid is not the solution, but the public is going to have to show interest in alternatively sources vehicles before we start to see a real emphasis on car companies to develop them.

[Edited on September 18, 2005 at 10:06 AM. Reason : .]

9/18/2005 9:43:07 AM

Prius ends up being 52-55mpg MAX.

The VW TDI's in the US have gotten 50-60mpg for ten years.

The VW Lupo gets 80mpg.

Deisel engines, in consumer vehicles, on average, last TWICE as long as their petrol counterparts. Most now are rated for 300-400k before failure, whereas most petrol cars only have a 200k lifetime (both are very conservative estimates obviously).

Deisel cars cost 1/3 less to buy, cost FAR less to maintain and have higher resale values.

Quote :

"Noen, if the car is under warranty, how is this costing me anything? And after 10 years, I would hope you are ready for a new car. After 10 years, the car will only be worth about 3% of its original value, so even if you have to scrap it, you lose very little... You obviously know a lot more than I do about cars, but I know a pretty good amount about economics."

Buying a new car in the first place doesnt make economic sense. You should know that. If you do buy a new car, you can get a diesel with just as good gas mileage, MUCH better overall performance and a better ride quality, and the same warranty period.

Buying used is a no brainer.

And as far as the environmental impact (which is the only damn reason the hippies are buying these things) from disposing of MILLIONS of the Li polymer batteries in addition to the car itself is going to be retarded in 5-7 years when those batteries start dying.

9/18/2005 11:30:56 AM

Well, buying a hybrid car is probably your best chance to diminish any depreciation at this current moment. People who have owned a hybrid for 2 years have found their cars value to be close to the original value (I believe some have seen it appreciate). Cant say that for diesels. Look, I am not arguing that hybrids are the solution. What I am saying is that it is a beginning.

And you didnt respond to my point about new technology. It is so new, you cant expect them to defeat 50+ years of technology advancement in diesel engines in a few years. battery technology has come a long way in 10 years, and I expect it to go ever farther in the next 10 years.

If you ever want to see a hydrogen car, then the manufacturers need to see a demand for people buying alternatively sourced vehicles.

BTW... Isnt Diesel a byproduct of gas production? I wonder if we could supply enough diesel if everyone wanted to run it tomorrow.

[Edited on September 18, 2005 at 11:44 AM. Reason : .]

9/18/2005 11:40:59 AM

It's not new technology. Batteries have only marginally improved in the past 10 years. It's POWER consumption that has gotten massively more efficient (in electronics).

Hybrid cars using Li Polymer cells will NEVER be a viable economic alternative to petrol or diesel vehicles. Li has basically plateaued in its storage capacity. The improvements being made now are to lessen charge time dramatically. Hybrids rely on friction from braking to charge. Which only really makes a difference in uncongested city driving. Highway, no difference, bumper to bumper, no difference.

Problem with ALL of those hybrids is, as soon as that warranty runs out (10yrs or so), the cars are basically worthless. They are no longer hybrids, because the batteries are dead weight. And who the fuck is going to drop 5-6 grand for a 10yr old used hybrid to get new batteries?

Quote :

"BTW... Isnt Diesel a byproduct of gas production? I wonder if we could supply enough diesel if everyone wanted to run it tomorrow. "

By product? I suppose that's one way to look at it. Happens that Diesel is MUCH easier, faster and cheaper to make.




http://science.howstuffworks.com/oil-refining4.htm

[Edited on September 19, 2005 at 2:31 AM. Reason : .]

9/19/2005 2:29:31 AM

Quote :

"Hybrids rely on friction from braking to charge."

9/19/2005 8:55:32 AM

Tyler, wtf are you talking about?

hybrids do not rely on braking to charge. Regenerative braking will allow you to reclaim some of the wasted energy that's inherent to braking.

http://www.hybridcars.com/regenerative-braking.html

9/19/2005 9:20:12 AM

free hot dog cooker with every hybrid purchase...

9/19/2005 9:28:28 AM

is what they need is is a couple extra gears in the electric motor's tranny that would engage when slowing down (engine breaking) and create a like 1:a-lot ratio so as the wheels are turned by inertia the electric spins fast as hell thus creating a lot of energy. that outta increase the juice a bit over only using the existing gear ratios.. im a genius

9/19/2005 10:07:50 AM

They need to drop a flux capacitor in them. 1.21 gigawatts!

[Edited on September 19, 2005 at 11:51 AM. Reason : ]

9/19/2005 11:51:04 AM

^^ the electric motor is in-line with the IC engine and transmission though. The Ford escape hybrid uses the electric motor to provide braking force and charging power for the batteries, then if the pedal is pressed far enough, the hydraulic system begins to function like a normal car.

9/19/2005 1:15:00 PM

Quote :

"Hybrids rely on friction from braking to charge. Which only really makes a difference in uncongested city driving."

How about "congested"

And yes, they recharge with regenerative braking.

9/19/2005 1:26:14 PM

I told my mom she should buy a civic hybrid so i could borrow it.


can you say road trip!!!!!!!!1111111111




you can keep your VW's

9/19/2005 3:39:59 PM

^ I would think that a diesel would be better for highway road trips.

9/19/2005 4:04:20 PM

Yea I fucked up on the braking. Sorry for the lapse fellas.

However it works though, it's still a fucking retarded mechanism to rely on.

9/19/2005 7:10:53 PM

"But Honda’s Takemoto said no American consumer has yet to pay for a battery replacement on Honda’s oldest hybrid, the Insight. Some Insights have traveled 200,000 miles now, he said, and all batteries that have been replaced have been covered by warranty."

Source
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9338611/page/2/


Just got 83.1mpg over 750 miles of driving from here to Atlanta and back this weekend. Even if the battery does fail out of warrenty and you can't guilt trip the dealer into replacing it for free. They're only $750 from a junk yard; replace them yourself just becareful where you touch. And my sister's TDI jetta is a POS she's paid more in maintance work on that thing than I'll ever have to with my little honda.

9/20/2005 9:31:14 AM

man you must look really gay driving that! Do you have a kerry sticker on the back too?

9/20/2005 10:25:42 AM

Quote :

"man you must look really gay driving that! Do you have a kerry sticker on the back too?"

9/20/2005 10:36:29 AM

Quote :

"And my sister's TDI jetta is a POS she's paid more in maintance work on that thing than I'll ever have to with my little honda."

Is your anecdotal evidence supposed to mean something?

All I can infer from that is that your sister is probably a downie, or otherwise clinically retarded.

9/20/2005 10:51:31 AM

Quote :

"Just got 83.1mpg over 750 miles of driving from here to Atlanta and back this weekend"

There is no way in hell you got 81mpg on the HIGHWAY in a hybrid. YOU RUN 100% OFF GAS ON THE HIGHWAY. AND THERE IS NO DAMN PETROL CAR ENGINE IN PRODUCTION THAT GETS 80 MPG.

Quote :

"Even if the battery does fail out of warrenty "

The battery doesn't fail, it just no longer holds charge.

9/20/2005 11:43:56 AM

http://cars.about.com/cs/familysedans/a/hybrid_explain.htm

9/20/2005 12:53:37 PM

83.1mpg isn't even that impressive for the insight there are owners who do extensive highway driving who have lifetime averages of 92mpg or higher. The honda hybrids are set up different than the prius so yes it does better on the highway. Its got a little three cyclinder engine there is able run on very lean air/gas mix...upwards of 20:1.
I would define failure for a battery as no longer holding a charge. And nope no Kerry sticker that whole thing was over after I got the car. I was just saying with my anecdotal evidence that VW doesn't really make a reliable car in my experience. (Glow plugs failing twice, faulty MAF, power window failure on both side, ect.)

9/20/2005 1:15:59 PM

Did Noen just get fucked up twice in this thread?

http://www.insightman.com/spring/tourdesol-6-8-00.htm

9/20/2005 1:23:07 PM

He's been going crazy in a lot of threads. He keeps getting pwnt IMO.

[Edited on September 20, 2005 at 1:25 PM. Reason : Lots of caps and shit.]

9/20/2005 1:24:55 PM

Well normally he does the research first, then comes off as being smart.

We see what happens when he doesn't.

9/20/2005 1:29:15 PM

Noen should stfu

The hybrids conserve gas even on highways

by turning off the engine periodically.

9/20/2005 1:29:22 PM

and by pwnting noen.

9/20/2005 1:30:41 PM

Quote :

"The hybrids conserve gas even on highways by turning off the engine periodically."

Uh, no?

Quote :

"Did Noen just get fucked up twice in this thread? http://www.insightman.com/spring/tourdesol-6-8-00.htm"

Quote :

"The honda hybrids are set up different than the prius so yes it does better on the highway. Its got a little three cyclinder engine there is able run on very lean air/gas mix...upwards of 20:1. "

Holy.Shit. That really is fucking amazing.

However, that isn't HYBRID technology. That's just an efficient petrol engine.

9/20/2005 3:01:35 PM

http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosconsumer/0408/23/g03-245579.htm

Noen...please gtfo

9/20/2005 3:11:04 PM

Quote :

"However, that isn't HYBRID technology. That's just an efficient petrol engine."

Dude

How's that not hybrid technology? The essence of hybrid technology is to use smaller lesser powerful engines, and take assistance from the battery whenever help is required.

Regenerative braking is NOT the only way batteries are charged.

jeez.

9/20/2005 3:22:04 PM

Egargs is right in a limited since about the ICE shutting off at least in the case of honda's hybrids. With your foot completely off the accelerator the fuel is shut off completely to the ICE and the motor begins to aggressively charge the batteries. This isn't really good for driving though unless you are going down a step hill as it takes away momentum from the car. Again I'm going to differ with you on definitions here. The ICE is very efficient yes, but without the added torque of the electric motor it would be strained to power the car up even small hills. By Honda's own account the mileage improvement is a third weight reduction from an aluminum body, a third Integrated Motor Assist, and a third aerodynamic improvement. And yep, the electric motor functions as the car's starter and alternator (in a sense) as well so the battery pack is charged as you drive.

9/20/2005 3:26:33 PM

Begin Noens attacking of what the definition of 'Hybrid' means and how he was right all along.

This thread will be classic Noen before long folks, stand back and be amazed.

9/20/2005 4:03:44 PM

^^^Because that 90mpg on the highway is achieved by super efficient and high compression petrol engines.

You aren't running off electric on the highway. At all. Not one iota.

Hence, that isn't hybrid!

I agree that such an engine is pretty much crap without the electric at low speeds, but there are other ways to achieve low end torque.

^No, I think it's awesome that they are FINALLY using the hybrid combo in a way that makes some practical sense. I'm just saying that you can still achieve that mileage without electric batteries.

[Edited on September 20, 2005 at 4:06 PM. Reason : .]

9/20/2005 4:04:26 PM

Quote :

" I would think that a diesel would be better for highway road trips."

Yeah, i dont want a VW .

Quote :

"Begin Noens attacking of what the definition of 'Hybrid' means and how he was right all along. This thread will be classic Noen before long folks, stand back and be amazed."

lol

[Edited on September 20, 2005 at 4:07 PM. Reason : .]

9/20/2005 4:06:12 PM

Quote :

"Begin Noens attacking of what the definition of 'Hybrid' means and how he was right all along. This thread will be classic Noen before long folks, stand back and be amazed."

9/20/2005 4:09:35 PM

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-car12.htm

Quote :

"When you are cruising along the freeway, the gas engine is doing all of the work. When you slow down by hitting the brakes or letting off the gas, the electric motor kicks in to generate a little electricity to charge the batteries"

Not to mention that braking isn't the ONLY way to charge the batteries...they use the gasoline engine to recharge if they're running low.

I hope you know that.

[Edited on September 20, 2005 at 4:14 PM. Reason : .]

9/20/2005 4:12:01 PM

holy shit @ 90mpg.

9/20/2005 4:15:55 PM

noen thinks it's hybrid only when the engine cuts off completely

9/20/2005 4:16:48 PM

Quote :

"SO now they run off Li polymer batteries, which is fucking rediculous."

Insight
• 12-valve, SOHC VTEC® engine
• 5-speed manual transmission
• Nickel-metal hydride (Ni-MH) battery pack

Quote :

" Toyota has a comprehensive battery recycling program in place and has been recycling nickel-metal hydride batteries since the RAV4 Electric Vehicle was introduced in 1998. Every part of the battery, from the precious metals to the plastic, plates, steel case and the wiring, is recycled. To ensure that batteries come back to Toyota, each battery has a phone number on it to call for recycling information and dealers are paid a $200 "bounty" for each battery. "

Still not great, but its not as bad as you make it out to seem.

[Edited on September 20, 2005 at 4:23 PM. Reason : .]

9/20/2005 4:21:18 PM

Noen, It does use the motor on the highway to assist the ICE. If I tried to travel on the hills present on our highways with just the ICE I would have to downshift significantly and rev the engine or slow to like 20, both of which reduce the efficiency of the engine. The IMA system allows me to have a little extra push at highway speeds. I need both to achieve the mileage I get hence it is a hybrid. You just don't seem to get the technology. If it would make you feel better I could replace the "hybrid" decal on the car with a "electrically turbocharged" decal, but I think that'd be a much bigger misnomer. The current classification of the insight is a mild series hybrid...its a hybrid.

9/20/2005 4:27:08 PM

Quote :

"I agree that such an engine is pretty much crap without the electric at low speeds, but there are other ways to achieve low end torque."

What would you do to that engine to make torque at low rpm? You have three cylinders and one liter displacement to work with. Go.

9/20/2005 7:02:55 PM