Someone please tell me what we could use to power our cars that would work out better for the environment and energy situation, given today's technology.

Nobody can list one even remotely practical/feasible.

I'll save someone the trouble go ahead and point out that anything powered in some way by hydrogen doesn't work. It requires far too much energy to get hydrogen separated from other elements.

9/27/2005 12:24:58 PM

solar power

9/27/2005 12:25:37 PM

Quote :

"Nobody can list one even remotely practical/feasible"

solar technology is decades away from being practical.

9/27/2005 12:27:11 PM

well we can't do it now, so we should never look into it.

9/27/2005 12:28:09 PM

magnets

9/27/2005 12:29:42 PM

hydrogen.

hydrogen and oxygen can be seperated from water easily. there are many ways to do it, and chemists think of news ways each day. every month there is a new catalyst discovered which can do this.

the issues are the distrubution of the things which are needed -- youll need water and the catalyst, which would need to be made in giant quantities. it can be done cheaply, but it takes a huge initial investment.

dont give me that shit unless youve done the research, water powered cars are the best bet for the future.

9/27/2005 12:30:34 PM

what about all the differnt bio fuels, such as the ones that use agricultural goods to create , i think its biodiesel?, also how about purely electric, it seems it would be easier to clean up power plants than it would be individual cars. of course for any feasable plan ^ as he said no infrastructure is in place

9/27/2005 12:33:57 PM

^^it cannot be done efficiently yet.

There is no available technology to cheaply separate hydrogen from water. I will agree that once the technology is there to get hydrogen cheaply then engines powered by hydrogen (a la BMW) and fuel cells (a la Mercedes, Ford, GM, Volvo, Honda, etc) will be a wonderful thing.

But the technology is not there to:

A) separate hydrogen from water (or any other compound) in a cheap and efficient matter
B) a cheap method to compress/liquify hydrogen for tanks of vehicles.

Quote :

"dont give me that shit unless youve done the research, water powered cars are the best bet for the future."

I've done the shit, now don't go acting all hostile


^Ideally, you'd have all the power plants be nuclear powered and have everyone drive electric cars. But tell me when thats gonna happen. (plus battery technology for a range of over 100 miles is decades away)

[Edited on September 27, 2005 at 12:37 PM. Reason : :-(]

9/27/2005 12:34:21 PM

youre claiming it takes a lot of energy to get hydrogen from water?

It takes a few amps, you just need two electrodes. this is an incredibly popular ch 101 demo.

have you not seen it?


toyota

http://www.hat.net/apps_php/link.php?u=http://auto.howstuffworks.com/toyota-mtrc.htm

[Edited on September 27, 2005 at 12:45 PM. Reason : -]

9/27/2005 12:39:52 PM

Electrolysis in its current form does not work

I've read numerous articles on the process in regards to harnessing the hydrogen for vehicle consumption. Its incredibly inefficient and in the end is a worse use of energy than an internal combustion engine (and given the emissions from most power plants, no cleaner). I don't have the article in front of me, but give me a day or so and I can locate it (hell i'll look for it on the internet now).

Your "a few amps" won't even give you enough hydrogen to turn over an engine at startup.

[Edited on September 27, 2005 at 12:46 PM. Reason : a ]

9/27/2005 12:45:38 PM

^thats not the way science works. one paper cannot posit an entire area of research is meritless.

the scientific oommunity has confidence in hydrogen.

[Edited on September 27, 2005 at 12:49 PM. Reason : =]

9/27/2005 12:48:45 PM

I don't think it will be a "one energy" solution.

Some people will run cars off of biodiesel, some by ethanol produced from corn.

Besides, electric cars are a totally viable option for a daily commuter. Most people do not drive over 100 miles/day. In my office for example, no one drives more than 80 miles round trip so there are twenty people right there who are prime candidates.

Families today could have one car powered electrically (charged from a solar powered home) and one hybrid from Toyota/Honda/Ford for out of town trips.

I think the smartest solution would be some sort of system where you do not have to own a car in larger areas. Lots around town would have 50 or so cars in them w/ GPS trackers. You have a standing account with a national company, so you take the biodiesel powered train to NY, then right there at the station you walk out, swipe your card and hop in. It would be similar to a lot of "car share" companies springing up in larger cities.

9/27/2005 12:49:43 PM

ethanol


^haha saying electric cars are feasable kinda makes you lose credibility
and then recomending a hybrid? they are way overhyped

[Edited on September 27, 2005 at 12:51 PM. Reason : or nuclear energy to produce hydrogen]

9/27/2005 12:49:54 PM

ride your bike

9/27/2005 12:52:00 PM

^I've seriously considered that thought, given that I only work 4 miles from where I live. However I'd show up all hot and sweaty most of the time, and really cold in the winter time (if I didn't crash into a snow bank)

methanol and ethanol won't work in the long run.

Quote :

"the scientific oommunity[sic] has confidence in hydrogen."

As do I in the long run, but lets stick to the thread topic

Quote :

"given today's technology."

[Edited on September 27, 2005 at 12:55 PM. Reason : k]

9/27/2005 12:52:35 PM

I think the real problem is that we are a car-centric society. We are just so spread out, it is hard to find an alternative for travel.

We could all switch over to Honda Insights today and that would only make a small dent in the problem. Huge amounts of energy and oil are required to make our current car technologies. It just takes a ton of power to make car.

We should focus on our homes. The amount of energy required to build a modern McMansion and then power it is huge. I believe it is something like 1/5 of our nation's energy demand to power our homes. What if we just built homes a little more intelligently, to be less energy demanding?

For everyone who owns a house today there are tons of things that they could do to better the environment and lessen our foreign dependence on oil when compared to buying an alternative powered vehicle, and would have better paybacks than buying a new car.

9/27/2005 12:57:57 PM

Quote :

"methanol and ethanol won't work in the long run."

explain

go

9/27/2005 12:58:43 PM

^^bingo, suburban life is grossly inefficient.

^The amount of energy in each gallon of methanol/ethanol is significantly less than a gallon of gasoline. Emissions are slightly cleaner, but to get the same power result in the end requires higher consumption, i.e. increased emissions volume.

From a standpoint of reliance on foreign oil its definitely a good thing though. All those poor farmers in the midwest could be growning the equivalent of oil in their fields.

[Edited on September 27, 2005 at 1:00 PM. Reason : l]

9/27/2005 12:58:52 PM

you're wrong about the emissions stuff

even with the reduced mileage your greenhouse gasses are still lower and ethanol emissions are getting even better as they continue researh

[Edited on September 27, 2005 at 1:07 PM. Reason : .]

9/27/2005 1:02:06 PM

Quote :

"^haha saying electric cars are feasable kinda makes you lose credibility and then recomending a hybrid? they are way overhyped"

Look, I don't own an electric car. I have considered it though. Part of the problem is that I live in an apartment and can't recharge it cleanly. The other part is no one makes one that isn't ass ugly.

I don't think you can just throw away the electric car idea. The batteries can be recycled and can be charged from clean sources (so this is an improvement over a gasoline engine). Electric cars have reasonable acceleration and performance. Their only true limit is their range. The thing is, their range is more than enough to serve as a daily commuter and/or a second vehicle for a good portion of the population.

I think the real problem is, no one wants to drive one of these:

http://www.myersmotors.com/

[Edited on September 27, 2005 at 1:04 PM. Reason : clarify]

[Edited on September 27, 2005 at 1:05 PM. Reason : 2]

9/27/2005 1:03:19 PM

problems with electric cars:
batteries
slow
batteries
range
slow
batteries

9/27/2005 1:08:40 PM

I'm kind of curious as to why one of these big companies aren't willing to put the money that's needed to get this thing going.

I mean, if the company can make a breakthrough, they can patent (if allowed) and profit from it for years. From raised gas prices, it's pretty evident that people are definitely looking for alternative powered cars and are willing to invest in them (there's more demand for them than what they can put out).

If some company can bring enough initial capital to the table and make a breakthrough, they'd be stinkin rich.

9/27/2005 1:08:49 PM

Quote :

"even with the reduced mileage your greenhouse gasses are still lower and ethanol emissions are getting even better as they continue researh"

I didn't say ethanol was dirtier, but to get the same result you need more of it. Its not as an efficient operation.

^Its a nice thought, but is a huge loss of money. Maybe the times are different now, but I don't know...

If you recall, GM had the EV1 electric car. HUGE FLOP and financial loss for them.

9/27/2005 1:11:33 PM

biodiesel

the first combustion engines ran on vegetable oil

jackass

9/27/2005 1:12:21 PM

COLD FUSION, FUCKERS.

Give it ten or twenty years.

9/27/2005 1:12:34 PM

until we go nuclear

there is currently no feasible way to generate either electricity for electric vehicles or hydrogen for H-powered cars

9/27/2005 1:13:10 PM

Quote :

"problems with electric cars: batteries slow batteries range slow batteries"

What is the problem with batteries? I would say that a battery powered car is much more reliable than a gasoline powered car from the simple reduction of moving parts.

Yes there are drawbacks such as danger to emergency workers from high voltage and the batteries do have to be replaced. However, I do not think the entire battery pack dies at once, batteries die off individually thus reducing range but these can easily be replaced. This is not the case for your gas motor.

Also, speed, the EV1 made by GM was held to no more than 80 mph but could go much faster as show here:

Quote :

"http://www.evworld.com/archives/testdrives/gmev1.html"

Yeah, I admit the range of an electric car is not equivalent to a gas powered car. However, you can refuel an electric car everyday at your home. People recharge their laptops and cell phones everyday or two days, why not your car?

An electric car is not perfect for everyone but I think it is fine for a large group of people (elderly people who travel infrequently, stay at home moms, daily commuters (ME, I don't leave the office all day).

You are right though, the drawbacks are range and time to recharge. For me though, they aren't bad enough problems that you can just write the electric car off.

9/27/2005 1:16:11 PM

Quote :

"Also, speed, the EV1 made by GM was held to no more than 80 mph but could go much faster as show here:"

I'm not saying the EV1 was slow. But no one wanted it. I'm aware of plenty of fast specialty electric cars out there.

Quote :

"However, you can refuel an electric car everyday at your home. People recharge their laptops and cell phones everyday or two days, why not your car"

Can you imagine the brownouts throughout the country if everyone went home and plugged in their electric cars after work?

9/27/2005 1:18:57 PM

Quote :

"I didn't say ethanol was dirtier, but to get the same result you need more of it. Its not as an efficient operation."

maybe you missed my "even with the decreased mileage"

if you look at the tons/year of greenhouse gas output of an e-85 car it is less than petroleum car (so that takes care of all of you"well you need more of it" stuff)

[Edited on September 27, 2005 at 1:19 PM. Reason : .]

9/27/2005 1:19:28 PM

Quote :

" What is the problem with batteries? I would say that a battery powered car is much more reliable than a gasoline powered car from the simple reduction of moving parts."

batteries are a huge environmental problem already

Quote :

"Also, speed, the EV1 made by GM was held to no more than 80 mph but could go much faster as show here:"

the ev1 wasnt large enough nor did it have enough storage space to be practical. also way too expensive for a tiny little car

9/27/2005 1:22:12 PM

ill tell you why ethanol wont work

drunk driving becomes too easy

[Edited on September 27, 2005 at 1:23 PM. Reason : little for mr car ... little for me ...]

9/27/2005 1:22:51 PM

actually, though what he's leading to isn't the result I'd like to be led to, tke-teg is right. there's no power source that we know of that can ever give us the kind of power that cheap oil has, and anything that could be equivalent, we'll run out of the resources necessary to use it

nuclear needs uranium, solar needs silver, hydrogen fuel cells need platinum, etc etc

those are all non-renewable

9/27/2005 1:25:41 PM

^^^my mistake

^^lol, I laughed

Quote :

"actually, though what he's leading to isn't the result I'd like to be led to, tke-teg is right"

yeah I'm not saying I like it either. Although I do a powerful gas powered engine, hehe.

9/27/2005 1:28:22 PM

criteria as laid out by tke-teg:
-can use to power cars
-better on environment than todays technology
-better for energy situation than todays environment
-practical/feasible

while some of price and longevity go in practical/feasible there is no criteria for it to be cheaper

9/27/2005 1:29:52 PM

i still say magnets, i don't know how, but it seems like they might be able to help with something

9/27/2005 1:31:17 PM

Quote :

"Can you imagine the brownouts throughout the country if everyone went home and plugged in their electric cars after work?"

This article states that the EV1 used approximately 10 kwH per day. GM estimated that one million EV1 could be charge daily with no increase to the power grid. One million is a good start. We could offset this power usage with a lot of energy efficient upgrades to our homes.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/forum/january97/cars_1-21.html

Quote :

"the ev1 wasnt large enough nor did it have enough storage space to be practical. also way too expensive for a tiny little car"

Yes you are right, however, you could buy this Ford Ranger or Rav4 that has plenty of capacity for the average person.

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/236.html Ford Ranger

http://www.evworld.com/archives/testdrives/rav4ev.html Rav4

Now both of these cars are discontinued but my only point is that there is potential for these vehicles. The problem is the disconnect between the consumer and the product. The market force for this product just doesn't exist which is sad.

9/27/2005 1:33:36 PM

Quote :

"there's no power source that we know of that can ever give us the kind of power that cheap oil has"

There in lies the problem. We need to stop looking for 1 silver bullet. We do have very real options. Why not a biodiesel car, with batteries(hybrid) and has solar panels for example? As I understand it, the range of hybrids is reduced, but that is the electric motor's range. You can still drive a hybrid on the fuel after the battery is kaput. But with solar power you get a moderate return on sunny days. True its not a perfect solution, but combination alternate energy sources are what we need. Biodiesel can work. It just requires demand and ultimatly in the end an increase in some form of high oil yielding crop. The same is true for home energy. Europe is kicking our ass these days on solar and wind power. Once again, if every home used solar panels on its roof and there were wind vanes to augment as well, think of the percentage of demand from electric plants reduced. We will always have some sort of demand for fossil fuels, but we can drastically reduce that demand if we combine alternate options.

As for cost, simple, start providing incentives to people. Which in turn creates demand, which increases supply and in turn forces corporations to reduce supply costs. Governments could also help push the technology with grants. Christ, we managed to evolve a thumb, why can't we figure this out?

[Edited on September 27, 2005 at 1:38 PM. Reason : .]

9/27/2005 1:35:58 PM

Quote :

"The same is true for home energy. Europe is kicking our ass these days on solar and wind power. Once again, if every home used solar panels on its roof and there were wind vanes to augment as well, think of the percentage of demand from electric plants reduced."

One problem with solar that I have run into, in the short term is that it is practically impossible to buy home solar panels in the U.S.

There just isn't enough domestic production. Demand is way up but supply is lagging in the short term.



[Edited on September 27, 2005 at 1:41 PM. Reason : blah]

9/27/2005 1:40:48 PM

Some country in south america, i cant remember which one (Brazil? Venezuela?) has both alcohol (well, thats what they call it) and gas at their pumps. as well as cars that use both.

9/27/2005 1:43:06 PM

In my opinion, the best bet is a hybrid. For starters, a car powered by electricity is cheap when it comes to mileage (electricity costs per kilowatt is better than gasoline) and most batteries can muster 70 to 80% efficiency. The problem with an all electric car is range, something a gas engine has no trouble with.

So, the electric part of the car needs to be able to complete most daily commutes, about 60 to 80 miles. In effect, your daily commute is handled exclusively off electric with nightly charges. Double if you manage to charge it at work.

However, if you ever need to drive to Denver or you forgot to recharge last night or your errands ran overboard, the gas engine can be started to fill the gap and the tank can be refilled at any service-station.

I realize it will never be as good as a regular electric car, hauling around a gas tank and engine, but for most people it would nearly eliminate their demand for gasoline.

9/27/2005 1:52:03 PM

Has anybody heard about these new twin ion engines? They're supposed to be pretty leet.

9/27/2005 1:53:52 PM

donkies?

9/27/2005 2:36:49 PM

We could put big magnets in the highway and design them to help accelerate your car at certain times, say like on on-ramps to the interstate or along long stretches of road to help keep up your speed.

9/27/2005 2:52:04 PM

Or we could put big yellow arrows on the road that give you a speed boost, but you'd have to watch out for oil slicks and and water hazards. Also, other cars could pick up rockets and bombs to blow your car up with. But if you pick up all the letters that spell N-I-N-T-E-N-D-O you would get a car upgrade.

9/27/2005 3:02:44 PM

^ fuck beat me to it

hahaha

9/27/2005 3:05:35 PM

I run my car on vegetable oil.



Seriously.

9/27/2005 3:11:13 PM

^yeah i believe you. But if everyone did there wouldn't be enough.

9/27/2005 3:17:26 PM

I wonder if there would be enough plant fuels if they made a bio-fuel hybrid electric. Would that even work?

9/27/2005 3:22:39 PM

I'd imagine so. It'd probably take a lot of land resources though.

9/27/2005 3:31:02 PM

Quote :

"ill tell you why ethanol wont work drunk driving becomes too easy"

They put diarrheics in the Ethanol to dissuade people from drinking it.

If someone actually did try to drink from the pump, they would be very sorry for it afterwards.

9/27/2005 3:31:22 PM