GENEVA - LSD is an unlikely subject for a 100th birthday party. Yet the Swiss chemist who discovered the mind-altering drug and was its first human guinea pig is celebrating his centenary Wednesday — in good health and with plans to attend an international seminar on the hallucinogenic

1/11/2006 2:40:20 PM

never really a fan

1/11/2006 2:40:56 PM

I asked Bobby Dylan
I asked the Beatles
I asked Timothy Leary
but he couldn't help me either

1/11/2006 2:42:27 PM

albert fucking hoffman is still alive? jesus christ!

1/11/2006 3:25:06 PM

1/11/2006 3:29:45 PM

LSD WILL MAKE YOU LIVE FOREVER

1/11/2006 3:46:28 PM

the fountain LSD of youth.

1/11/2006 3:53:22 PM

OMF I HEARD IF YOU TAKE 7 TABS OF ACID YOU'RE LEGALLY INSANE FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE!!1ONE

1/11/2006 4:14:19 PM

Is this what you people will want next? The legalization of LSD?

1/11/2006 4:21:49 PM

Theres too many weak minded people to legalize lsd.

And think of the children.

1/11/2006 4:50:40 PM

Quote :

"Theres too many weak minded people to legalize lsd keep guns legal."

[Edited on January 11, 2006 at 5:17 PM. Reason : []

1/11/2006 5:15:06 PM

Quote :

"Theres too many weak minded people much scientifically unfounded paranoia to legalize lsd."

1/11/2006 6:43:44 PM

do we live in Miami now?

oops, im thinking of Ex

why not? if dumbasses can have guns, dumbasses should have drugs. you can use without dieing, duh.

1/11/2006 6:48:35 PM

acid-guns!

1/11/2006 7:06:00 PM

dope-heads with guns, now that's a great idea

1/11/2006 7:53:00 PM

Please donate: http://www.maps.org/cgi-bin/thatsanorder_LE

1/11/2006 10:53:20 PM

That first accidental ingestion must have been insane, haha.

1/11/2006 11:07:49 PM

Quote :

"dope-heads with guns, now that's a great idea"

Gotta watch out for them violent pot heads.

1/11/2006 11:28:31 PM

Quote :

"Is this what you people will want next? The legalization of LSD?"

Make a case against it instead of using rhetorical questions.

Bonus points if you include anecdotes about people who think they can fly off buildings, drive cars underwater, skin themselves alive, etc.

1/12/2006 12:18:17 AM

new thread: DYNAMITE is extremely peaceful

thread body: i mean, the man who invented it created a peace prize

1/12/2006 1:10:02 AM

I'll admit I only know a handful of people who have used LSD. However, all of them were strong proponents of its legalization, and all of them described having flashbacks at various points in time after the last incident of their consumption.

With alcohol, marijuana, etc., there's a very finite and relatively easily predictable period of time after the last incident of consumption during which one can expect to see symptoms of use. The same cannot be said for LSD, and that in and of itself makes it an unacceptably dangerous drug.

That is, I can tell a guy that he can't drive while he's got a certain amount of alcohol in his system, and within a few hours he'll be able to drive just fine. No problem. This is essentially guaranteed. With LSD, though, there is a real (if perhaps relatively small) possibility that symptoms will reappear at more or less random times. That is unacceptable. The possibility of being overcome with the influences of a drug weeks, months, or years later, perhaps while operating an automobile or heavy machinery or firearm or what have you, only exists with a very small number of drugs, of which LSD is one, perhaps the only one. (I won't claim to know if there are other drugs that cause flashbacks, but merely that alcohol, tobacco, and marijuana are not among them.)

Now watch as certain people attempt to deny the existence of flashbacks.

1/12/2006 1:49:10 AM

I have no idea how well flashbacks have been documented. I remember my DARE teacher told us that PCP gave this guy a flashback while he was driving. He saw a lion in the road, and he crashed and killed everyone in his family.

I thought the open eye visuals common in lsd experiences were mostly a result of pupil dilation.

1/12/2006 6:46:44 AM

Quote :

"Is this what you people will want next? The legalization of LSD?"

always have. legalization of all drugs, just like your close counterparts, the libertarians. I'd certainly see it legalized before coke, heroine, or other addictive and dangerous drugs.

[Edited on January 12, 2006 at 7:07 AM. Reason : .]

1/12/2006 7:06:48 AM

Quote :

"That is, I can tell a guy that he can't drive while he's got a certain amount of alcohol in his system, and within a few hours he'll be able to drive just fine. No problem. This is essentially guaranteed. With LSD, though, there is a real (if perhaps relatively small) possibility that symptoms will reappear at more or less random times. That is unacceptable. The possibility of being overcome with the influences of a drug weeks, months, or years later, perhaps while operating an automobile or heavy machinery or firearm or what have you, only exists with a very small number of drugs, of which LSD is one, perhaps the only one. (I won't claim to know if there are other drugs that cause flashbacks, but merely that alcohol, tobacco, and marijuana are not among them.) Now watch as certain people attempt to deny the existence of flashbacks."

You do realize that a "flashback" is just a form of ptsd. I do not deny their occurance, but I think that you're mistaken about what they are exactly, and what may happen during one. There are lots of people driving on a regular basis who have consumed lsd during their lifetime. I'd like to see some sort of evidence pointing towards the possibility of normal people becoming fully immersed in a psychedelic experience over a year after taking it. Talking to random people who claim to have had them doesn't count, as those people could have been lying, stupid, or even recieved something other than lsd (Especially if their experiences were somewhat recent...).

Flashbacks do not involve becoming intoxicated, and the flashback itself is not caused directly by the drug. It is a purely psychological issue caused by distress, generally after an intense negative experience. The drug can sometimes precipitate such an experience when given to weak minded people or in too large of a dose, thus causing psychological problems not unlike the ones war veterans experience. I agree 100% though, that for people who are mentally unstable to begin with, psychedelics can and do cause extreme psychological issues.

Quote :

"I have no idea how well flashbacks have been documented. I remember my DARE teacher told us that PCP gave this guy a flashback while he was driving. He saw a lion in the road, and he crashed and killed everyone in his family. I thought the open eye visuals common in lsd experiences were mostly a result of pupil dilation."

Your teacher was probably lying about that pcp thing. I will say that pcp is the only drug that I know of that actually puts holes in your brain (Olney's Lesions). The visual effects caused by psychedelics have not been fully explained to my knowledge, but seeing fractal patterns and things of that sort doesn't come from pupil dilation.

[Edited on January 12, 2006 at 1:57 PM. Reason : The definition of the word "flashback" is also quite broad imo.]

1/12/2006 1:50:44 PM

^ agreed 100% on all accounts

most of the stuff I've read in this thread make me realize why they lie to you in dare - because you continue to believe their lies, even into your twenties.

PLEASE, if you're going to discuss details on these issues, please read actual documentation on the subjects, because most "common knowledge" is totally wrong

http://www.erowid.org at least has some helpful information, though it's not a scholarly journal or anything.

Quote :

"I have no idea how well flashbacks have been documented. I remember my DARE teacher told us that PCP gave this guy a flashback while he was driving. He saw a lion in the road, and he crashed and killed everyone in his family."

that's bullshit, if for no other reason than psychedelic visuals don't cause you to see things that aren't there. certain patterns morph and change, and something could sort of look like a lion, but you aren't going to see what you think is a real, 3 dimensional lion in the road and swerve to miss it. it just doesn't happen. What you see in movies of people "tripping," that just isn't realistic. at all.

Quote :

"I thought the open eye visuals common in lsd experiences were mostly a result of pupil dilation"

while I'm sure it helps, that's not the cause. I've had my pupils dilated by an eye doctor before, and I experienced no hallucinations, just extreme peripheral vision. I certainly didn't see walls "melting," lights strobing, and colors splashed all over everything like I would with psychedelics.

Quote :

"You do realize that a "flashback" is just a form of ptsd."

exactly. they used to say that lsd like, crystallized in your spine or some crap like that, and that if you cracked your back you had a chance of having a flashback. total bullshit. lsd leaves your body VERY quickly.

1/12/2006 3:29:26 PM

Has anyone seen the old film of the British Army platoon on LSD?

1/12/2006 3:35:32 PM

Quote :

"most of the stuff I've read in this thread make me realize why they lie to you in dare - because you continue to believe their lies, even into your twenties."

Um, I never took DARE. Not so much as a single class.

Quote :

"You do realize that a "flashback" is just a form of ptsd."

Yes, but I haven't seen any legislation that can adequately restrict people's ability to undergo extremely traumatic experiences.

Quote :

"There are lots of people driving on a regular basis who have consumed lsd during their lifetime."

I didn't say that they were crashing left and right, or even necessarily at all. But the possibility of long-term (at least relative to "mainstream" drugs) interference with normal mental function is undeniable, and that in and of itself is bad enough.

Remember also that LSD isn't one of the most commonly used drugs or anything. "Lots" can mean a relatively small sample in terms of drugs.

Quote :

"I'd like to see some sort of evidence pointing towards the possibility of normal people becoming fully immersed in a psychedelic experience"

It wouldn't even require this. Even a relatively minor incident -- a falsely perceived motion, a flash, whatever -- could dramatically impact performance in any number of areas.

Quote :

"Talking to random people who claim to have had them..."

...is about the best we've got. At least, I haven't found anything on this specific subject, and you'll pardon me for not dropping out of school and seeking grants to research it for the first time for the purposes of winning an argument on the int4rw3b.

Quote :

"The drug can sometimes precipitate such an experience when given to weak minded people or in too large of a dose, thus causing psychological problems not unlike the ones war veterans experience."

This is a whole new can of worms. What are you going to do, legalize it, but only for people who aren't "weak-minded"? Or are you just going to throw up your hands when all the "weak-minded" (Of whom, presumably, there are many) become psychotic wastes of life?

Anyone who has seen any of the US or British Army research knows that a person using LSD is not in any condition to be doing anything at all, ever.

1/12/2006 3:55:08 PM

I found this bit of an experience on the Erowid.

Quote :

"At this point, I felt drawn to the storm. I saw a lightning bolt streak across the sky. The power of the bolt was tremendous, and I could feel it flowing through me. My arms began to feel the urge to rise, so I did not fight them. They ended up in front of me as if I were holding something (or maybe offering something). I closed my eyes and felt everything melt away. My normal closed eye hallucinations were suddenly replaced by flashes of light. I knew without question what this meant. I was in the eye of the storm. My body had been replaced by pure energy. I was floating through clouds high in the sky. Suddenly, I felt a great rushing sensation. I was the bolt of lightning about to strike. I was propelled forward at light speed, but experiencing it so slowly. I rushed through the clouds faster and faster until I had broken out. I saw a familiar back yard and house. I also was able to make out a person whom looked just like I used to leaning against the house. I propelled myself at him, and made contact, passing all my energy into him."

It's actually 2CT-7, but what is it about psychedelics that causes people to have mystical out of body experiences?


If legalized, it'd be difficult to regulate dosages, since dosage affects everyone differently. So it would be nearly impossible to keep everyone from taking too much.

[Edited on January 12, 2006 at 5:33 PM. Reason : dose]

1/12/2006 5:27:41 PM

Quote :

"You do realize that a "flashback" is just a form of ptsd." Yes, but I haven't seen any legislation that can adequately restrict people's ability to undergo extremely traumatic experiences."

Yeah, so we should probably make everything illegal that leaves people with ptsd... like war

1/12/2006 6:32:06 PM

Quote :

"This is a whole new can of worms. What are you going to do, legalize it, but only for people who aren't "weak-minded"? Or are you just going to throw up your hands when all the "weak-minded" (Of whom, presumably, there are many) become psychotic wastes of life? Anyone who has seen any of the US or British Army research knows that a person using LSD is not in any condition to be doing anything at all, ever."

I never suggested legalizing it first of all, although I wouldn't oppose it or anything. Drugs have different effects at different doses. A light dose of LSD could be handled in public even. I've seen that video, and nobody looked unhappy to me. It looked like they were laughing really hard but that's about it, and that one dude was either rather weak minded or sensitive to lsd ( ).

Quote :

"...is about the best we've got. At least, I haven't found anything on this specific subject, and you'll pardon me for not dropping out of school and seeking grants to research it for the first time for the purposes of winning an argument on the int4rw3b."

So you're admitting now that all of your vast "knowledge" on this subject came from dumbasses who may or may not have even consumed lsd, and some minute long video from a LONG ass time ago. You have no first hand experience, you've never seen a person on lsd, and you don't really know anything about it. You may think you understand, but you dont.

Quote :

"It's actually 2CT-7, but what is it about psychedelics that causes people to have mystical out of body experiences?"

Well, "regular" out of body experiences that occur naturally are thought to be caused by DMT. Your brain naturally produces this hallucinogen and sometimes it can be produced in large quantities. It is a sort of natural "comforting" mechanism IMO, a way to show you the way things are (Often right before you die). DMT levels are supposedly elevated at very early ages as well.

2CT7 is a phenethylamine, in the same class of drugs as MDMA and Mescaline. The effects of phenethylamines are similar to tryptamines (DMT, AMT, Psilocybin), but not exactly the same.

I guess my point is that your mind was "designed" to be able to hallucinate, so when you consume drugs that mimick something like DMT you can experience an OOBE.

There is a book called "DMT: The Spirit Molecule," that explains what I've just said in great detail. They were able to cause alien abductions, encounters with "god," out of body experiences, etc. with the administration of DMT.

For more info on that book: http://www.rickstrassman.com/

"I was drawn to DMT because of its presence in all of our bodies. Perhaps excessive DMT production, coming from the mysterious pineal gland, was involved in naturally occurring "psychedelic" states. These might include birth, death and near-death, psychosis, and mystical experiences. Only later, while the study was well under way, did I also begin considering DMT's role in the 'alien abduction' experience."

[Edited on January 12, 2006 at 7:09 PM. Reason : ]

1/12/2006 6:40:08 PM

Quote :

"I guess my point is that your mind was "designed" to be able to hallucinate, so when you consume drugs that mimick something like DMT you can experience an OOBE."

Like hell it is. LSD doesnt just give you sensory hallucinations, it makes you unreasonable and illogical. You become dellusional. I have first hand ancedotal evidence out the wazoo.

1/12/2006 7:46:22 PM

I'm not sure I'm following you... I didn't comment on it's mental effects one way or the other. Your mind sure was designed to be able to be influenced by the chemicals it produces though, because otherwise they wouldn't work.

[Edited on January 12, 2006 at 8:01 PM. Reason : ]

1/12/2006 7:51:41 PM

that's not true for everyone. sure, i've seen people become unreasonable, but for the most part (and remember I was with intellectuals typically), people are calm and entertained at the least, and in a trancelike simplicity in others, and VERY functional in others, sometimes moreso than when they're sober.

1/12/2006 7:54:00 PM

^ Matches my experience (LOOOONG ago).

Quote :

"Um, I never took DARE. Not so much as a single class."

Lucky you. Thanks to them, I used to think cocaine would burn a hole in your tongue; something patently false.

Quote :

"Yes, but I haven't seen any legislation that can adequately restrict people's ability to undergo extremely traumatic experiences."

Except for the laws banning Schedule I drugs, you mean.

Quote :

"But the possibility of long-term (at least relative to "mainstream" drugs) interference with normal mental function is undeniable, and that in and of itself is bad enough."

See: Alcohol.

Quote :

"It wouldn't even require this. Even a relatively minor incident -- a falsely perceived motion, a flash, whatever -- could dramatically impact performance in any number of areas."

WARNING: DO NOT OPERATE HEAVY MACHINERY OR OPERATE A VEHICLE WHILE UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THIS DRUG

Quote :

"...is about the best we've got. At least, I haven't found anything on this specific subject, and you'll pardon me for not dropping out of school and seeking grants to research it for the first time for the purposes of winning an argument on the int4rw3b. "

You wouldn't get the funding anyway. You'd get smacked down by t3h gov Leary-style.

But you're wrong besides. That's not remotely close to the best we've got. The Army, Navy & CIA have conducted their own LSD research and the records are publicly available.

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/795_psyche.html

Quote :

"Promising Potential Early research suggested medical promise for psychedelic drugs. According to a 1992 report by Richard Yensen, Ph.D., and Donna Dryer, M.D., director and medical director at the Orenda Institute, a 1960s' study of 135 alcoholics found that six months after treatment with LSD, 53 percent of a high-dose group reported abstinence compared with 33 percent of a low-dose group. Alcoholics receiving conventional therapy had a 12 percent improvement rate. In a study of 31 cancer patients suffering from anxiety, depression and uncontrollable pain, 71 percent showed improvement in their physical and emotional status after each LSD session. According to Yensen, researchers also observed that many cancer patients receiving LSD reported that their desire for addictive pain medicines, such as morphine, had diminished or vanished, along with the pain. An article in the winter 1995 edition of MAPS, published by the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies, reports success with another hallucinogen, ibogaine, in the treatment of chemical dependencies. The article's author, Howard Lotsof, founder of NDA International Inc.--a private organization based in Staten Island, N.Y., that treats drug addicts overseas--discusses several treatment successes, including a medical doctor whose addiction to a pain medication vanished after receiving four doses of ibogaine. Lotsof reported in the article that "29 of 35 patients successfully treated with ibogaine had numerous unsuccessful experiences with other treatment modalities." Lotsof's studies are not sanctioned by FDA, and he is not authorized to treat patients in the United States. Members of FDA's pilot drug evaluation staff advise caution in interpreting the results of these early studies and observations. "We have to wonder: What was the quality of the drugs?" FDA's Klein said. "What other factors were involved? Were the doses adhered to? What was the outcome measured? These are the kinds of questions we need to go back and look at objectively.""

Quote :

"What are you going to do, legalize it, but only for people who aren't "weak-minded"?"

I'll admit, I cringe every time I hear the "weak minded" argument made about LSD-induced psychoses. It's a poor choice of words, and sounds like an impossible thing to measure to me.

Quote :

"Or are you just going to throw up your hands when all the "weak-minded" (Of whom, presumably, there are many) become psychotic wastes of life?"

Strassman, Cohen, and Melleson have all done separate studies on LSD-induced psychoses and none of the available evidence supports a causal link between LSD and chronic psychotic disorders.

[Edited on January 12, 2006 at 8:06 PM. Reason : ...]

1/12/2006 8:03:41 PM

Quote :

"I'll admit, I cringe every time I hear the "weak minded" argument made about LSD-induced psychoses. It's a poor choice of words, and sounds like an impossible thing to measure to me."

I would say that LSD generally exaggerates pre-existing mental problems rather than creating new ones (Which we apparently agree on). I am very very serious when I say that it is truly dangerous to give a psychedelic to a "weak-minded" person.

I guess it's a shitty choice of words, but it's the best way for me to describe a person unable to keep their head on straight under extremely stressful conditions. Someone who would freeze up when they're in fear, or someone who can't handle being scared and who gets irrational/crazy when they are. A person who cannot endure a mental "beating" for a few hours. That is "weak minded" to me. I never said you could measure it.

I didn't notice the psychosis part of your statement. We weren't talking about psychosis, we were talking about ptsd/flashbacks. I don't think lsd causes psychosis in weak people, I just think that they would not be able to handle it and it could cause something like ptsd.

[Edited on January 12, 2006 at 8:26 PM. Reason : ]

1/12/2006 8:13:08 PM

Quote :

"I am very very serious when I say that it is truly dangerous to give a psychedelic to a "weak-minded" person."

I completely agree with you. My point is that it's incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to build an operational definition out of "weak-minded" that would be necessary in order to responsibly legalize LSD. The legal limitation would obviously be that "weak-minded" people would have to stay off it, or only take very low doses. The reason "weak-minded"ness would need to be measured is because there has to be some basis for executing the laws prohibiting said people from taking the drug; a measurement the pharmacist can take to determine your level of "weak-mindedness" to determine your LSD consumption limitation.

Certain people, especially those with any medically diagnosed mental disorders, should never take LSD, legal or no. That grey boundary is a bitch to define, though.

As much as I'd love to see LSD made legal, and believe me, I'd LOVE to see that, I have yet to come up with a responsible method that allows home use. The only ideas I've come up with are like Leary's; in a controlled environment, under controlled circumstances.

1/12/2006 8:26:00 PM

Yeah I'm not necessarily for it's full legality or anything, I was just arguing with his misconceptions.

[Edited on January 12, 2006 at 8:33 PM. Reason : ]

1/12/2006 8:31:33 PM

Couldn't get in before the 30 minutes:

Quote :

"GrumpyGOP: But the possibility of long-term (at least relative to "mainstream" drugs) interference with normal mental function is undeniable, and that in and of itself is bad enough."

If the undeniable possibility of long-term interference with normal mental function is "bad enough," why aren't we cutting the legs out from under your drug of choice? It's been shown to cause brain damage, the short term, long term, and even permanent impairment of normal mental function far more often than LSD.

[Edited on January 12, 2006 at 8:39 PM. Reason : and that's the word]

1/12/2006 8:36:19 PM

Not to mention it's own form of psychosis and hallucinations which I can't imagine are healthy (DTs y0).

[Edited on January 12, 2006 at 8:39 PM. Reason : ]

1/12/2006 8:38:10 PM

Just rereading this statement from the FDA in response to those LSD-therapy studies makes me snicker.

Quote :

""We have to wonder: What was the quality of the drugs?" FDA's Klein said. "What other factors were involved? Were the doses adhered to? What was the outcome measured? These are the kinds of questions we need to go back and look at objectively.""

Let's do.

1/13/2006 12:11:46 AM

You all are making me want to try some LSD

1/13/2006 12:20:18 AM

^ Good luck finding any. Something like 95% of all the black market LSD (read: the only LSD available to you) in America was confiscated in one bust at one lab in the late nineties.

1/13/2006 12:39:50 AM

Is LSD and acid the same thing?

1/13/2006 1:05:50 AM

1/13/2006 1:34:18 AM

Quote :

"So you're admitting now that all of your vast "knowledge" on this subject came from dumbasses who may or may not have even consumed lsd, and some minute long video from a LONG ass time ago. You have no first hand experience, you've never seen a person on lsd"

1) Never claimed that it was "vast knowledge," only that it was what I had to work with. At the end of the day, that's all most of us can claim. I think that demanding that people use drugs before they can have a qualified opinion on them is rathe rpoorly thought out.
2) It doesn't matter how long ago the video was made; has LSD changed in some significant way since then?
3) So now you've inferred that I've never seen anyone take LSD, have you?

Quote :

"See: Alcohol."

Alcohol is a different animal for several reasons that I've explained in threads about other drugs.

For one, alcohol has been a part of human culture for at least 9,000 years (the oldest evidence of the substance being intentionally produced being that old and found in China). It has been a visible and substantial part of our existence ever since. There are even those that claim that the move from hunter-gatherer to farmer was largely (perhaps predominantly) influenced by the discovery of the brewing process.

In other words, alcohol has been ingrained into us for millenia. Maybe we'd be better off without it, but that doesn't mean we can actually get rid of it. LSD, on the other hand, has been around for four or five decades. Even marijuana has been a major cultural influence for a comparably short period of time. I'm a reasonable man. I can see what battles are winnable and what others are not.

Secondly, the effects of alcohol are relatively easily predictable. It will cause certain impariments of motor function, and can generally be assumed (with a high degree of accuracy) to cause faults in judgement along similar lines. LSD, as has been stated repeatedly in this thread, can cause widely varying results depending on the person. Also, where the impacts of alcohol as consumed in even a remotely socially acceptable way are finite and short term, the impacts of LSD have a noticable potential to show themselves long afterwords.

Quote :

"WARNING: DO NOT OPERATE HEAVY MACHINERY OR OPERATE A VEHICLE WHILE UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THIS DRUG"

As I've said, with alchol, this warning works: your significant impairment disappears within a few hours of the last incidence of consumption. The same cannot be said so definitively of LSD.

Quote :

"all done separate studies on LSD-induced psychoses and none of the available evidence supports a causal link between LSD and chronic psychotic disorders."

Admittedly, "psychotic waste of life" was my own poor and sensationalist choice of words. The point stands, though, about the options given to us regarding the "weak-minded' as far as LSD legalization. If people with a certain mental predisposition are prone to flashbacks or similar symptoms, then the drug has no business being legalized. At the very least, if it were to be, it should be only under the strictest prescription standards.

As to the article you posted, Gamecat, I see nothing particularly convincing in there. Drugs are fun. Nobody denies that. As a result, they are almost certainly preferable to the normal pain associated with chronic, painful illnesses. I'm not saying that drugs are without their benefits, merely that those do not outweigh the costs.

Quote :

"(DTs y0"

The DT's requir an addiction to alcohol. Flashbacks, as far as I can determine and as far as has been stated in this thread, do not (since LSD isn't addictive and all).

1/13/2006 3:48:16 AM

Quote :

"For one, alcohol has been a part of human culture for at least 9,000 years"

As has inequality of sexes.

1/13/2006 7:55:02 AM

Quote :

"Good luck finding any."

I heard that the people arrested were released. There was some of it around Raleigh last year.

I'm not sure how legit this link is, but I stumbled across it sometime last year:
http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2004/i_lsd_test-p1.php

[Edited on January 13, 2006 at 9:55 AM. Reason : link]

1/13/2006 9:49:41 AM

That was probably not acid, yo.

Quote :

"Clyde Apperson and William Leonard Pickard were charged with and eventually convicted of possession and conspiracy to distribute LSD. According to court testimony, the DEA seized the largest operable LSD laboratory in agency history, as well as 91 pounds of LSD and precursor compounds for the potential manufacture of nearly 27 pounds more. If you define a dose of LSD as 100 micrograms, Apperson and Pickard had around 400 million hits in stock. At the more common dosage level of 20 micrograms, the two were sitting on 2 billion hits. Apperson got 30 years in prison, and Pickard got two life sentences."

1/13/2006 10:05:28 AM

Quote :

"1. Never claimed that it was "vast knowledge," only that it was what I had to work with. At the end of the day, that's all most of us can claim. I think that demanding that people use drugs before they can have a qualified opinion on them is rathe rpoorly thought out. 2) It doesn't matter how long ago the video was made; has LSD changed in some significant way since then? 3) So now you've inferred that I've never seen anyone take LSD, have you?"

1. You are arguing with us based on evidence you've gathered from random people. It's not the best we have to work with, and at the end of the day, we can claim a lot more than that. It's like a 10 year old telling a race car driver how to drive.

2. No, but our understanding of psychedelics has changed since that, and the video was NOT particularly scientific. In fact, I didn't see anything out of the video that supported what you're saying.

3. Well, prove me wrong then. I'm just going to assume with all of the crazy assumptions you're making that you have no first hand experience on this matter.

Quote :

"Secondly, the effects of alcohol are relatively easily predictable. It will cause certain impariments of motor function, and can generally be assumed (with a high degree of accuracy) to cause faults in judgement along similar lines. LSD, as has been stated repeatedly in this thread, can cause widely varying results depending on the person."

This is not exactly correct. The general effects of LSD are always similar, just like alcohol. It's just that a persons reaction to those effects could vary. Every experience on LSD varies in that what is on your mind is different everytime. So the "trip" can take different directions. Alcohol is the same in that respect. If you are depressed and you drink you may dwell on your depression. If you are angry and you drink you may get angrier. If you are happy and you drink you may become happier. Alcohol gives wildly varying results depending on the person.....

Quote :

"As I've said, with alchol, this warning works: your significant impairment disappears within a few hours of the last incidence of consumption. The same cannot be said so definitively of LSD."

We've already established that the only time that LSD is likely to cause a permanent problem is in individuals with pre-existing mental disorders. The impairment always goes away, the psychological distress that a person with a mental disorder could experience may not. You really don't know what you're talking about, but continue to pretend to be an expert. LSD intoxication does not simply resurface randomly as that would be physically impossible. That's like saying you could become drunk again two years after quitting drinking. The drugs have to be in your brain to have an effect. The issues caused by LSD are purely psychological, and often likely preventable.


^^ Here is an artist on LSD (Well, probably not when he's actually painting ) :

http://www.alexgrey.com

WOW, his tribute to Albert Hoffman (B-Day present) is fucking awesome! This is the first time I've seen it.

[Edited on January 13, 2006 at 11:21 AM. Reason : ]

1/13/2006 11:06:25 AM

Quote :

"Secondly, the effects of alcohol are relatively easily predictable. It will cause certain impariments of motor function, and can generally be assumed (with a high degree of accuracy) to cause faults in judgement along similar lines. LSD, as has been stated repeatedly in this thread, can cause widely varying results depending on the person. Also, where the impacts of alcohol as consumed in even a remotely socially acceptable way are finite and short term, the impacts of LSD have a noticable potential to show themselves long afterwords."

Ill make another point along those lines - When a person drinks too much or smokes too much in one sitting they will pass out or at least become very tired. Such drowsiness is actually a good thing because it keeps people from hurting themselves or others. Taking too much LSD will not produce drowsiness, and as such there is an added danger to using LSD.

1/13/2006 11:30:19 AM