http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/25/immigration.rallies.ap/index.html

Quote :

"Half-million protesters peacefully clog L.A. streets Proposed legislation targets immigrants, employers, Samaritans LOS ANGELES, California (AP) -- They surprised the police, and maybe themselves, their T-shirts turning block after block of downtown Los Angeles streets white in a demonstration so massive that few causes in recent U.S. history have matched it. Police said more than 500,000 people marched Saturday to protest a proposed federal crackdown on illegal immigration. Wearing white as a sign of peace, and waving flags from the U.S., Mexico, Guatemala and other countries, they came to show that illegal immigrants already are part of the American fabric, and want the chance to be legal, law-abiding citizens. Police used helicopters to come up with the crowd estimate. "I've been on the force 38 years and I've never seen a rally this big," said Cmdr. Louis Gray Jr., incident commander for the rally. In Denver, Colorado, more than 50,000 people protested downtown Saturday, according to police who had expected only a few thousand. Phoenix was similarly surprised Friday when an estimated 20,000 people gathered for one of the biggest demonstrations in city history, and more than 10,000 marched in Milwaukee on Thursday. The demonstrators oppose legislation passed by the U.S. House that would make it a felony to be in the U.S. illegally. It also would impose new penalties on employers who hire illegal immigrants, require churches to check the legal status of parishioners before helping them and erect fences along one-third of the U.S.-Mexican border. "I think it's just inhumane," said Elger Aloy of Riverside, a 26-year-old premed student who was pushing his 8-month-old son in a stroller at the Los Angeles march. "Everybody deserves the right to a better life." Many demonstrators said they had immigrant relatives or had crossed the border themselves. "My mom came from Mexico. She had to cross the river, and thank God she did," said David Gonzalez, 22, who held a sign saying, "I'm in my homeland."' Gonzalez rejected claims by advocates of the legislation that it would help protect the nation from terrorism, noting that it would hurt Hispanics the most. "When did you ever see a Mexican blow up the World Trade Center?" he said. "Who do you think built the World Trade Center?" The Senate was to begin debating immigration proposals Tuesday. President Bush is pushing for a guest worker program that could provide temporary legal status for some of the estimated 12 million undocumented immigrants in the United States, but many of his fellow Republicans are taking a more restrictive stance. "As we debate the immigration issue, we must remember there are hardworking individuals, doing jobs that Americans will not do, who are contributing to the economic vitality of our country," Bush said Saturday in his weekly radio address. Some immigrant-rights advocates, however, are also against Bush's proposed guest worker program, saying it would create an underclass of foreign workers. Illegal immigrants want legislation that would protect them, unify their families and address future flows of immigrants, Lisa Duran, of the group Rights for All People, said at the Denver protest. The rally at Denver's Civic Center Park, like the one in Los Angeles, was peaceful. Denver police spokesman Sonny Jackson said the crowd, mostly made up of families and older people, was respectful. Arvada resident Elsa Rodriguez, a pilot who came to Colorado in 1999 from Mexico to look for work, said she came to the Denver protest because she just wants to be considered equal. "We're like the ancestors who started this country. They came from other countries without documents, too," said Rodriguez, 30. "They call us lazy and dirty, but we just want to come to work. If you see, we have families, too.""

I'll be very interested to see how the Senate reacts to this, or if they will. Any thoughts?

3/26/2006 3:49:46 AM

The same way they were going to act before the march: by failing to pass any bill whatsoever.

3/26/2006 9:22:29 AM

hey paco, while im glad ur madre got over here and is a productive member of society, that doesnt mean we should just let everyone in here illegally.

3/26/2006 9:30:41 AM

most immigrants that come here are productive members of society.

3/26/2006 10:02:35 AM

Quote :

"require churches to check the legal status of parishioners before helping them"

wtf

3/26/2006 10:30:47 AM

The status quo is good for our economy. It wont be changed in any important way.

3/26/2006 11:38:00 AM

nothing against these people but if they all got together in their country of origin im sure they could do something to increase their standard of living there. I know we are the land of the free and our population is made up of immigrants it just seems kinda silly. Just seems kinda going in the wrong directions if ya ask me. No one starts kick ass revolutions anymore, they just hop the boarder. Kinda sucks.

oh and the junk about mexicans didnt blow up the world trade tower is the most hilarious bullshit ive ever read.

3/26/2006 11:47:50 AM

I hope my "Legalize Murder" rally goes as well!


Not that I don't think some reforms to immigration need to be made...I just thought it was a salient point to make.

[Edited on March 26, 2006 at 12:00 PM. Reason : .]

3/26/2006 12:00:05 PM

3/26/2006 12:04:04 PM

^^Wages in <random 3rd world country> : below what you would pay a slave
wages here: bad but not that bad

"most hilarious bullshit" ???? Go look at how the 9/11 guys entered the country. it wasnt by running through the Rio Grande.

3/26/2006 12:06:02 PM

^ thats why you overthrow the gubment. Che style.

and its hilarious b/c it makes no sense. Oh we didnt blow up your building so we're cool, dont mind us.
Its backwards logic.

3/26/2006 12:07:53 PM

Quote :

"bgmims: Not that I don't think some reforms to immigration need to be made...I just thought it was a salient point to make."

you actually thought what you wrote was a salient point?

haha [wow]...

3/26/2006 12:13:00 PM

The only problem with revolt in most of those third world countries is that control of the government does not mean control of the economy. Killing some politician isnt going to do much when the vast majority of the country is controlled by American/European fucks. All the more reason to come here. Take the fight TO walmart.

Its not really backward logic. What are the explanations for limiting immigration? Its bad for the economy is just plain wrong, and proved wrong with any actual statistics. Therefore, security is the only reason to keep them out, so proving that wrong is smart. Unless we just admit to being racist, but I cant see that happening.

3/26/2006 12:14:12 PM

I know this is the extreme, but unlimited immigration would absolutely destroy our economy.

3/26/2006 12:55:48 PM

^I don't see how.

3/26/2006 1:17:00 PM

3/26/2006 1:29:08 PM

^^By straining our social services to the point that debt spun out of control and our government could no longer function.

Immigrants (and poor people) cost a lot more to the government than they pay in taxes.

what I said in the other thread about this (the link documented fights between black and mexican students):

I think it would be pretty funny if they rounded up all the protesters and took them down to Mexico in paddy wagons.

The fights between blacks and Mexicans are a funny new trend in California. Mexicans are willing to work harder and for less money than uneducated blacks, and correspondingly are taking a lot of their jobs. Black community leaders in LA are some of the most racist, anti-immigrant agitators around because of it.

[Edited on March 26, 2006 at 1:32 PM. Reason : 2]

3/26/2006 1:32:15 PM

Quote :

"By straining our social services to the point that debt spun out of control"

Haha, hasn't this already happened?

Quote :

" and our government could no longer function."

According to LoneStar, this isn't going to happen.

3/26/2006 1:34:30 PM

^^Nah, whites still have the market cornered on that.

[Edited on March 26, 2006 at 1:35 PM. Reason : .]

3/26/2006 1:35:19 PM

^^^did you read the week long article in the n&o about immigration? this area would not be where it is without immigrant work

[Edited on March 26, 2006 at 1:38 PM. Reason : arrows]

3/26/2006 1:36:38 PM

Employers would just have to pay higher wages to lazier workers, if the immigrants left. It wouldn't shut down the economy, but increased labor costs would put upward pressure on consumer prices and the like.

The idea that our economy could not function without cheap immigrant labor is laughable.

Quote :

"Haha, hasn't this already happened?"

Our debt is already putting a strain on the economy, but shit would really hit the fan if we opened our borders and immigration increased by an order of magnitude.

[Edited on March 26, 2006 at 1:47 PM. Reason : 2]

3/26/2006 1:45:19 PM

^ What exactly do you mean by "putting a strain on the economy"?

I'm not trying to be contrary, i just don't know what you mean by that.

3/26/2006 1:57:58 PM

As for the claim that immigrants cost more, its just plain wrong. over the long term immigrants pay more in taxes than they "cost". and if they are illegal what is the government paying for? healthcare? yeah right.

Our economy is already screwed thanks to Reaganomics, so this is all pretty much a moot conversation.

Would you care to explain how our economy would be fine without immigrants and collapse with increased immigration? We can start pulling out the actual economics on this one if you want. It would be fun. (more fun than doing my actual hmwk)

3/26/2006 2:17:20 PM

I'm saying if you have a massive, sudden influx of people into the economy, it will fuck it up.

I'm not an economist, AND I'm in support of allowing more immigration into america. But you have to realize that if like 50 million people came to America over the course of a few years, things would get messed up.

3/26/2006 2:18:38 PM

THEY NEED TO KEEP THEM DAMN FORINERS OUT OF MY COUNTRY BECAUSE THE TAKE OUR JOBS.

3/26/2006 2:20:30 PM

Ill give you the sudden influx of 20% of our current population.
But that isnt going to happen. The fact is that to come to America is not easy. Those that come to work in southern Texas and live right across the border commute just like people commute from Jersey to New York City. But if you live in South America or Lower Mexico then coming to the US is a journey. And living here for more than a few days takes an initial amount of money. Changing our laws to allow them to be recognized and be real people would actually help us and help our economy. Which would you rather, immigrants getting 4 dollars an hour and not having health insurance OR getting 6 dollars an hour and paying FICA?

3/26/2006 2:31:14 PM

I'm not arguing against increasing legal immigration.

You can tell that because I said so.

3/26/2006 2:41:11 PM

Im not trying argue with you. I was trying to question Prawn Star.

But the real issue here(the one in front of congress) isnt legal vs illegal immigration, its the legalizing of the status of those who are currently illegal.

3/26/2006 2:46:10 PM

Quote :

"you actually thought what you wrote was a salient point? haha [wow]... "

Yup, you see, just because a bunch of people get together and want the government to change its laws to their liking doesn't mean the government should do it. Of course the law criminalizing murder has a better foundation than the proposed laws on immigration, you shouldn't let some shitty "illegal pride parade" determine your decisions on what is best for the country.

So fuck you

3/26/2006 3:45:10 PM

^agree. People are just looking at this from an economic stand point. What about social? What social benefits does this have for this country?

Quote :

""When did you ever see a Mexican blow up the World Trade Center?" he said. "Who do you think built the World Trade Center?""

Is a very ignorant statement/stereotype. It wouldn't be visceral to assume that terrorism is based on race, yet allow this premise to vouch for 5 million other immigrants. Im in favor of the work related programs. But not so much for (full scale) immigration.

countering the economic argument, yeah they are providing labor for half costs. But this also creates unemployment on another scale(an abundance of american workers). In the long run, it won't balance out plus we are not in the position to "chance" this issue.

Quote :

""I think it's just inhumane,"

what's inhumane is how these people are worked. The shit they do for the price is inhumane. They are "volunteer slaves" basically. Corporate America knows this, and illegal immigrants know this ( but they are desperate and willing to do ANYTHING for a "better" life.

[Edited on March 26, 2006 at 4:44 PM. Reason : x]

3/26/2006 4:43:41 PM

I think illegal immigration is american. Throughout history illegal immigration has been America's major motto. The land of opportunity, right? Think about it, the only American's that aren't immigrants are native americans... and we don't even consider them americans (reservations). It's all hypocritical bullshit if you ask me.

3/26/2006 4:58:45 PM

^ its no longer the 1500's bud. You might wear a buckel on your hat but i sure as hell dont.

3/26/2006 5:00:48 PM

Thank you for your amazing feedback.

3/26/2006 5:04:36 PM

Quote :

"Some immigrant-rights advocates, however, are also against Bush's proposed guest worker program, saying it would create an underclass of foreign workers."

Because "illegal immigrant who is one phone call away from being thrown out of the country" is so much less of an underclass as a "guest worker" would be.

Quote :

"We're like the ancestors who started this country. They came from other countries without documents, too," said Rodriguez, 30. "They call us lazy and dirty, but we just want to come to work. If you see, we have families, too."

This is the inherant problem. It's not just individuals we're talking whole families here. While I think there needs to be some change to imigration laws, completely open borders or even extremely easy immigration is not the answer. Yes, this country was built with immigrants, but I hardly think that many or most people want to go back to those days.

3/26/2006 5:07:28 PM

my favorite people are the conservatives who oppose immigration, minimum wage, unions, and labor regulations in general.

WHO THE HELL IS GONNA PICK YOUR COTTON THEN, BOSSMAN???

3/26/2006 5:07:38 PM

slaves

3/26/2006 5:14:04 PM

A sudden influx of massive legal immigration is nothing to be affraid as long as the government is willing to act accordingly:
#1 increase police and fire protection services ahead of time to protect private property and stringently enforce evictions
#2 dramatically losen non-safety related housing restrictions such as rent-control, occupancy limits, remodelling and expansion limits, zoning board restrictions, etc
#3 losen non-safety related labor regulations such as minimum wage laws, closed-shop union requirements, etc
#4 eliminate business licensing requirements, replace them with blanket safety-regulations enforced with steep-fines

If the above steps are taken early and reliably, there is no reason to believe the economic system will not efficiently place all of the new immigrants. Once the new immigrants arrive, they are going to need to set up large numbers of businesses, production is going to need to dramatically increase to feed/clothe/and house the new-comers. As the new-comers will most likely be poorly educated, their low productivity rate is going to provide ample employment, as long as no rigid blockages develop.

This process is noither unusual nor unprecedented. Many Chinese coastal cities managed to quadruple in population in under a decade. When this occurs, what usually fails first is the government's licensing agencies (which become inundaded and quickly overwealmed).

Of course, this process quickly becomes a nightmare if the immigrants are illegals, which engender illegality in both the labor and product markets. Of course, I didn't mention such programs such as unemployment insurance and welfare, which are good programs to cut regardless of the state of the nations immigration programs as they engender perverse incentives in both the labor and product markets.

3/26/2006 6:04:34 PM

Quote :

"What social benefits does this have for this country? "

crime rates will rise, poverty will increase also.

3/26/2006 6:17:06 PM

TWW is extremely in touch with reality.

Pop Quiz: What happened last time when a government barred a minority that filled in a major industry from partaking in that industry?

3/26/2006 6:18:33 PM

^so what's your take??? im curious

since you can issue pop quizes

and we are extremely "in touch" with reality

[Edited on March 26, 2006 at 6:26 PM. Reason : x]

3/26/2006 6:23:33 PM

Quote :

""What social benefits does this have for this country?"

Well, legal immigration isn't an inherently beneficial process, the benefits are largely matched by the costs (assuming proper governmental policies). So, the balance of scale was tipped by the fact that it dramatically benefits the immigrants themselves.

So, to sum up, it neither harms nor helps the natives, while it demonstrably helps every single immigrant.

Overall, the human race benefits.

3/26/2006 6:51:10 PM

3/26/2006 7:05:44 PM

These protests could have turned into huge illegal immigration captures.

3/26/2006 7:37:46 PM

^^^okay, you diddn't answer the question. I said what does it do for the country(socially)? We all know, or I assume know, that it helps the immigrants.

isolation does not do much for a country/community, which is also a common trend amongst immigrants. Consider social welfare systems.

[Edited on March 26, 2006 at 7:44 PM. Reason : x]

3/26/2006 7:40:28 PM

i find it comical that a comparison is drawn with China in LoneSnark's post

and i doubt theres many american workers that would take to immigrat-dominated jobs w/o minimum wage laws in place. no american is going to pick tomatos for $3/hr.

[Edited on March 26, 2006 at 7:57 PM. Reason : .]

3/26/2006 7:56:03 PM

shit my mom made me do that and i didnt get shit

3/26/2006 8:36:56 PM

This thread went downhill fast.
You ask what are the social costs and benefits, then spout some "economics" that would get you slapped by anyone who had ever spent 20 minutes in an econ class.
Ill give you some social costs and benefits. Racism will increase before the immigration because people are idiots. Benefits would be that a greater exposure to more cultures makes one smarter. They have done tests with kids mental abilities, and those exposed to multiple languages at young ages develop faster, meaning that if we are forced because of immigration to teach white kids spanish that those same white kids will actually be smarter.

In conclusion, conservatives who believe that immigrants are criminals and nothing else should take a good hard look at their own ancestry.

3/26/2006 8:43:56 PM

thats bullshit and you know it.

3/26/2006 8:46:01 PM

Quote :

"They have done tests with kids mental abilities, and those exposed to multiple languages at young ages develop faster, meaning that if we are forced because of immigration to teach white kids spanish that those same white kids will actually be smarter."

It's worth pointing out that Japan is a very successful country and full of many very intelligent people, but is also a rather closed off country as far as multi-culturalism (whether due to immigration policies specifically or the fact that the Japanese culture tends to be very closed on the whole to begin with I'm not sure). Immigration is not necessary to expose children to multiple languages early on. Hell my counsin is going to a pre school which offers second language lessons, no immigration necessary.

Immigration has to be balanced against the social and economic conditions of the country in question. While it's true that immigrants take many low paying jobs in this country, there are a limited set of those jobs. A major influx of immigrants could lead to other jobs being eaten up fast, whether by immigrants or natives but either way resulting in a higher unemployment. Jobs tend to be lagging behind the actual current demand and supply curves so the immigration rate has to be balanced so that jobs and demand created by the immigration is being felt by the businesses. Also remember that just because demand increases doesn't mean the jobs to fill that demand will increase, jobs are still a finite resource and every new employee is a major expense to a business, especialy if that employee is legal.

3/26/2006 9:30:10 PM

Quote :

"We're like the ancestors who started this country. "

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

breathe

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

3/26/2006 9:33:20 PM