Hot topic these days.

I don't believe that we should be making it a felony to be an illegal alien, or to knowingly offer aid or employment to an illegal alien.

I think we need a program to allow illegals to earn citizenship, although I believe they should be sent to the bottom of the waiting list.

I think we need to tighten border security, of course.

there's some other stuff we need to do, too, but I can't remember what I was thinking of earlier.

Where do the rest of you stand on this one?

4/3/2006 1:06:59 PM

illegals already here should be given citizenship but i agree they should be given no special treatment. enact a bill making it a felony for new illegals to enter the country. tighten border security 10-fold by building a tru border wall (like in palestine and israel).

4/3/2006 1:10:49 PM

if youre against illegal immigration

youre racist

4/3/2006 1:11:00 PM

no

I'm down with Mexicans

I'm just not down with having people here who aren't paying taxes, go to the ER as a primary doctor, etc. I'm also not down with not keeping tabs on who's coming into the country.

4/3/2006 1:16:05 PM

Quote :

"I think we need a program to allow illegals to earn citizenship, although I believe they should be sent to the bottom of the waiting list."

That’s the Kennedy-McCain bill's wording right? As opposed to the Bush plan which is for temp passes I believe.

4/3/2006 1:31:22 PM

I'm not sure

I know kind of just enough to be dangerous about this, I think.

4/3/2006 1:32:53 PM

Kinda interesting how we're so adiment about giving full rights and status to people breaking our laws, yet we want to marginalize the rights of current citizens solely on the basis of their sexual preferance.

4/3/2006 1:34:25 PM

DEY TUKK UR JOBBS!!!

4/3/2006 1:34:32 PM

p.s. adiment ehe

4/3/2006 1:34:53 PM

Quote :

"no I'm down with Mexicans I'm just not down with having people here who aren't paying taxes, go to the ER as a primary doctor, etc. I'm also not down with not keeping tabs on who's coming into the country."

im with you

some on here think youre racist if youre against illegal immigration

4/3/2006 2:05:01 PM

nah, I'm a pretty solid defender of Mexican immigrants

but they need to pay taxes, get a real doctor, and carry liability car insurance

4/3/2006 2:52:21 PM

Issuing fines sounds great.

I don't know what the current law is, I suspect it is already a cross with what I think:

People that knowingly employ illegal immigrants should face financial penalties ($5,000 per illegal employee) [don't know the current or proposed law].

People that are illegal immigrants can join the list just like people living overseas, but must first provide proof of employment for 11 years, proof of existing employment in the U.S., pay all back taxes, pay a $5,000 fine, and have committed no felonies or more than 6 misdemeaners [closely matches one of the bills being proposed].

Illegal immigrants in America that have fullfilled all the above but have not yet become citizens (the number of which is capped to, say, 1 million a year) will automatically receive Guest Worker VISAs. These will allow them to freely travel (even to Mexico) and no longer fear deportation, as long as they retain employment and avoid criminal convictions.

Hell, now that I think about it, people in Mexico should be able to apply for this program, too. It is basically a Guest Worker program, with an unlimited number of slots.

[Edited on April 3, 2006 at 2:57 PM. Reason : .,.]

4/3/2006 2:56:12 PM

Quote :

"The Immigration Question by Ron Paul (rep. from Texas) The recent immigration protests in Los Angeles have brought the issue to the forefront, provoking strong reactions from millions of Americans. The protesters’ cause of open borders is not well served when they drape themselves in Mexican flags and chant slogans in Spanish. If anything, their protests underscore the Balkanization of America caused by widespread illegal immigration. How much longer can we maintain huge unassimilated subgroups within America, filled with millions of people who don’t speak English or participate fully in American life? Americans finally have decided the status quo is unacceptable, and immigration may be the issue that decides the 2008 presidential election. We’re often reminded that America is a nation of immigrants, implying that we’re coldhearted to restrict immigration in any way. But the new Americans reaching our shores in the late 1800s and early 1900s were legal immigrants. In many cases they had no chance of returning home again. They maintained their various ethnic and cultural identities, but they also learned English and embraced their new nationality. Today, the overwhelming majority of Americans – including immigrants – want immigration reduced, not expanded. The economic, cultural, and political situation was very different 100 years ago. We’re often told that immigrants do the jobs Americans won’t do, and sometimes this is true. But in many instances illegal immigrants simply increase the supply of labor in a community, which lowers wages. And while cheap labor certainly benefits the economy as a whole, when calculating the true cost of illegal immigration we must include the cost of social services that many new immigrants consume – especially medical care. We must reject amnesty for illegal immigrants in any form. We cannot continue to reward lawbreakers and expect things to get better. If we reward millions who came here illegally, surely millions more will follow suit. Ten years from now we will be in the same position, with a whole new generation of lawbreakers seeking amnesty. Amnesty also insults legal immigrants, who face years of paperwork and long waits to earn precious American citizenship. Birthright citizenship similarly rewards lawbreaking, and must be stopped. As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be citizens, the perverse incentive to sneak into this country remains strong. Citizenship involves more than the mere location of one’s birth. True citizenship requires cultural connections and an allegiance to the United States. Americans are happy to welcome those who wish to come here and build a better life for themselves, but we rightfully expect immigrants to show loyalty and attempt to assimilate themselves culturally. Birthright citizenship sometimes confers the benefits of being American on people who do not truly embrace America. We need to allocate far more resources, both in terms of money and manpower, to securing our borders and coastlines here at home. This is the most critical task before us, both in terms of immigration problems and the threat of foreign terrorists. Unless and until we secure our borders, illegal immigration and the problems associated with it will only increase."

4/4/2006 12:06:30 PM

My opinion is that we should combine a guest worker program with a crackdown on employers who hire illegal immigrants. We can give a window for illegals to get their permits, maybe a year, before bringing down the hammer on both illegals and employers. If you take away the jobs, you'll drastically reduce the number of illegals.

Crackdown on the border as well.

As for citizenship, if they want a green card, they're going to have to go back to their homelands and apply like everyone else. I'm all for immigration, but I don't think it's right or fair to give them citizenship when there are millions who go through piles of BS to just get into this country through legal means.

If a child is born to a US citizen or a legal immigrant, they should be granted US citizenship automatically. If a child is born to illegal immigrants, guest workers, or people on tourist visas, they should not be granted US citizenship, since their parents are not in the United States legally.

[Edited on April 4, 2006 at 1:46 PM. Reason : Forgot the born citizenship]

4/4/2006 1:44:54 PM

Quote :

"My opinion is that we should combine a guest worker program with a crackdown on employers who hire illegal immigrants. We can give a window for illegals to get their permits, maybe a year, before bringing down the hammer on both illegals and employers. If you take away the jobs, you'll drastically reduce the number of illegals. Crackdown on the border as well. As for citizenship, if they want a green card, they're going to have to go back to their homelands and apply like everyone else. I'm all for immigration, but I don't think it's right or fair to give them citizenship when there are millions who go through piles of BS to just get into this country through legal means. If a child is born to a US citizen or a legal immigrant, they should be granted US citizenship automatically. If a child is born to illegal immigrants, guest workers, or people on tourist visas, they should not be granted US citizenship, since their parents are not in the United States legally."

concur on all points.

4/4/2006 1:49:05 PM

Quote :

"I'm just not down with having people here who aren't paying taxes, go to the ER as a primary doctor, etc."

This, like most so-called objections to immigration of any kind, is really just an objection to poverty. Shall we purge the ghettos and trailer parks as well?

Make all immigration legal and at least they'll be able to pay taxes with impunity.

4/4/2006 2:25:08 PM

We need immigration reform.

I am heavily against illegal immigration, but I think we should allow more people in legally.

The conditions in Mexico are fucking horrible.

I'm down with having more Mexicans here, but they need to be accounted for

4/4/2006 2:28:24 PM

^^well, that's pretty much what i'm saying. Let them come here legally and half of the problems will be solved. The current setup is a Prohibition of sorts.

we may or may not disagree on a few details, but we're pretty much saying the same thing.

^yeah, Mexico is a bad place to be.

4/4/2006 2:39:45 PM

Immigants! I knew it was them! Even when it was the bears, I knew it was them.

4/4/2006 2:42:04 PM

it was hilarious hearing Rush trying to argue this issue with a guy who works in the Florida fruit industry.

basically, it comes down to this. my dad works in the ag industry, which is HEAVILY dependent on illegals being here. there is enough lobbying out there basically to make sure any bill allows them to move as freely as they have.

nothing much is going to change.

^^^depends on where you go. slums outside M.D.F.? terrible. Monterrey? mostly decent. I have a friend that goes back to Veracruz almost yearly and they dont seem to be bothered by the conditions.

[Edited on April 4, 2006 at 3:18 PM. Reason : .]

4/4/2006 3:17:05 PM

The people who have nice digs in Mexico obviously don't want to leave.

I'm talking about areas like Chiapas.

4/4/2006 3:40:28 PM

Quote :

"I don't believe that we should be making it a felony to be an illegal alien, or to knowingly offer aid or employment to an illegal alien."

i agree with that until the comma

4/4/2006 4:38:24 PM

Quote :

"I have a friend that goes back to Veracruz almost yearly and they dont seem to be bothered by the conditions. "

Obviously not. He's fortunate. I'm talking about Mexico's poor.

4/4/2006 4:39:43 PM

I agree (it would be hard not to) wholeheartedly that everyone we let in needs to be accounted for, but that's all they need.

The process now:
1) Apply to get into the country.
2) Get turned down. (step 1 is optional because you know step 2 is inevitable)
3) Sneak across border.
4) Try not to get killed.
5) Get semi-legit job that's probably paying you less than minimum wage and is backbreaking to boot.
6) Live in flophouse with 40 other guys.
7) Try not to get killed.
8) Try not to attract anyone's attention, ever.
9) Get deported.
10) Repeat.

The process I propose:
1) Show up at border.
2) Tell border guy your identifying facts (name, Mexican equivalent to SSN, etc)
3) Wait a couple days for the background check to go through.
4) Enter the US.
5) Profit.

4/4/2006 5:33:39 PM

^OMG BUREAUCRACY!

SHUT IT DOWN!

4/4/2006 5:35:23 PM

I'm confused. Are you saying my plan would entail more bureaucracy? Because I could show my post to Koko the Gorilla and even she would recognize how stupid that is.

4/4/2006 5:37:01 PM

A politician who had the weight to push through a way to get immigrants citizenship easily would have a lot more voters ready to vote for him or her.

4/4/2006 5:37:46 PM

^^i like your plan

but you know one of our libertarian friends will come in and blather about there being bureaucracy or something.

some of these people just arent grounded in reality.

4/4/2006 5:41:22 PM

Quote :

"Make all immigration legal and at least they'll be able to pay taxes with impunity."

The vast majority of them will qualify for an Earned Income Credit up to $4400, which will more than wipe out any FICA taxes paid in. They will also receive other government programs they aren't eligible for as illegals. Then they'll vote for politicians who promise wealth redistribution. The taxpayers are going to be SLAMMED when this is over with.

4/4/2006 5:44:53 PM

I'd jump into this thread, but GrumpyGOP pretty much pwns everyone on the issue...and since I agree with him anyway, I'll just get my popcorn ready and watch...

4/4/2006 5:58:16 PM

illegal immigration combined with job out sourcing is going to have/already have a devastating impact on our society. You can say what the hell ever about the economy on a macro-scale, and how its' thriving. But on a micro-scale, people are struggling to get ahead/stay ahead.

I say slow down(not stop) all immigration, until we reach a balance. Stop illegal immigration for sure. Middle class america is taking the biggest hit right now. The lower class is damn near helpless. Immigration is not the solution/missing link to our economy. Until we get this stupid notion out of our fuckin heads, we're screwed.

4/4/2006 5:59:47 PM

haha wtf

4/4/2006 6:04:25 PM

yeah!!! dude im sick of people claiming that we (our economy) "needs the immigrant worker" as dubya loves to say. We don't need the immigrant worker. Fact.

[Edited on April 4, 2006 at 6:16 PM. Reason : x]

4/4/2006 6:09:36 PM

Yeah, because hotel rooms clean themselves.

4/4/2006 6:37:56 PM

yep, they clean themselves. Wages also lower themselves to.

4/4/2006 6:39:11 PM

Wages lower themselves to what?

4/4/2006 6:39:32 PM

Quote :

"I say slow down(not stop) all immigration, until we reach a balance."

What would that look like?

Here is a fact: We have rampant illegal immigration BECAUSE legal immigration is too difficult. If we make it even more difficult then illegal immigration will become even MORE rampant. On the whole, America will lose big. Legal immigrants are not that bid a deal, they effect on the economy is largely a wash.

But illegal immigrants are a HUGE problem and have a devastating effect on the nations labor and capital markets.

Be a realist, even if you are right a legal immigrants are "also bad for America" you cannot say they are worse than illegal immigrats.

These are your choices:
#1: a large influx of legal immigrants come to America
#2: a large influx of illegal immigrants come to America
#3: America mobilizes a military invasion of Mexico in an effort to close the border with orders to shoot on sight any Mexicans attempting to cross (hey, it worked for Israel)

So, please, Leatherneck, which one do you prefer?

4/4/2006 6:41:56 PM

uuuuuuummmmm #3
But I don't want to shoot anyone, even tho our bp's are being killed by drug smuggler's and ms 13 gang members. Not saying that all illegals are one or the other.

^2
what the fuck do you mean wages lower themselves to what?!?!?! You're an idiot if you don't know that undocumented immigration lowers wages, not just for themselves but for others. Ever heard of bidding? You gotta be trolling me lol.

4/4/2006 6:49:53 PM

wait a min, wtf am I talking about. I don't wanna invade Mexico!?!?!?!?! That's totally preposterous. Don't silly dude.

#3 should say, mobilize at the BORDER

That's what I want to see more than anything. Cuts back on illegal immigration/ drug smuggling at the same time. I heard that some corrupt officials of the Mexican military are aiding with huge drug smuggling across the borders.



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11226144/


But I guess you guys are right. Let's just ignore this "little issue", open up our borders, and have one big fucking fiesta with .50$ maragarita shots while we sing la cu cha racha till the sun set.

[Edited on April 4, 2006 at 7:08 PM. Reason : x]

4/4/2006 6:52:28 PM

Quote :

"You're an idiot if you don't know that undocumented immigration lowers wages"

Undocumented immigration doesn't lower my wages or any other college educated person's wages. It does, however, lower the price of my food.

If you're competing with an uneducated, non-english speaking immigrant for a job, then you don't deserve to make anything more than minimum wage.

4/4/2006 7:24:45 PM

Quote :

" but you know one of our libertarian friends will come in and blather about there being bureaucracy or something."

Yeah, it will still have a bureaucracy, but it would be a much smaller one than we currently have to deal with. Besides, anyone other than a capital-L Libertarian would agree that we need someone checking out the people we let in.

We'd get to gut the INS.

Quote :

"The vast majority of them will qualify for an Earned Income Credit up to $4400, which will more than wipe out any FICA taxes paid in. "

At first, possibly. But every study I've seen on the matter suggests that in the long run, immigrants put in more money to the system than they get in credits or services.

4/4/2006 7:31:41 PM

^^Thanks alot for offending construction/agriculture workers. The hard working, tax paying Americans who have to compete with "slave like" wages, just to survive. The people who build your houses, and make it able so FOOD can be put on your table asshole. You are hereby the dumbest poster on this entire thread for that statement!! The neanderthal forum is over there---> you can't miss it.

Matter fact, I should be mad at myself for responding to that ignorance (slap the wrist).

[Edited on April 4, 2006 at 8:12 PM. Reason : xxx]

4/4/2006 8:07:57 PM

^ Do the Mexicans have no right to survival? Trust me, hard-working Americans that speak English are not fighting for survival, they are fighting for their first DVD player. While I believe they deserve to own a DVD player, I don't think condemning a family to poverty in Mexico is the best way to do it.

For starters, it is a very inefficient use of resources. The men with guns you wish to put on the border have wages, those cameras and walls have costs, all this money must be raised through taxes. Everyone would be much better off if we didn't spend the money and instead just subsidized the salaries of all those Americans you think were harmed by the immigrants.

Prices fall slightly making poor and middle income richer, population grows, unskilled wages fall, unskilled Americans get a subsidy to correct (now better off thanks to lower prices), America's capital stock is more efficiently utilized making the rich even richer, everyone is better off!

4/4/2006 10:13:08 PM

^dude now you know that the situation is more complex than that. If you're gonna be a such a Huge humanitarian, then why not rally for some Rawandans', Somalians or other dirt poor ethnic groups to come here.

On a more realistic scale, how bout let all the poor people in Central America in. Do they have no "right to survival"? How about the Hatians, Cubans damn the list goes on. This is not a game of pick our race jeopardy "ummm ill take Mexicans for 200". Poor people all over the world deserve a better life man. Even the ones here in America.

Quote :

"Trust me, hard-working Americans that speak English are not fighting for survival, they are fighting for their first DVD player."

Its unfortunate that you haven't been around the "less fortunate" long enough or at all maybe to validate such a weak claim. This obviously demonstrate that.

Quote :

"For starters, it is a very inefficient use of resources."

is it more efficient than the abundance of scarce resources that will be consumed by the illegals? Subsidizing people does not stop drug smuggling and the crime that comes along with it.

Quote :

"Prices fall slightly making poor and middle income richer, population grows, unskilled wages fall, unskilled Americans get a subsidy to correct (now better off thanks to lower prices), America's capital stock is more efficiently utilized making the rich even richer, everyone is better off!"

wow. I don't even know where to start. So every class status according to this pseudo crap you've written benefits huh? That's bullshit and you know it. Subsidy is not the answer dude, I hate to break it to ya. Lower wages suck if you don't know it. But people like you are the ones to say "hey, its not me doing 20$ per/hr work for 8$per/hr wages". These lower wages mean more quantity and less quality, in what ever field (micro-scale).

For the record, ive never condemmed any immigrant family. But if you don't think that A)people (all immigrants) should be screened more closely b) Drugs and illegals coming in via port/border need to be stopped, then you have a twisted view. And the majority of Americans don't agree with you.

[Edited on April 4, 2006 at 11:00 PM. Reason : x]

[Edited on April 4, 2006 at 11:18 PM. Reason : xxx]

4/4/2006 10:58:44 PM

Quote :

"is it more efficient than the abundance of scarce resources that will be consumed by the illegals?"

LEGALs. I am talking about LEGAL immigrants. Sustaining a flood of illegal is undeniably costly and destructive to all parties concerned and can not be adjusted for. My goal in legallizing immigration, however, is not because I feel the need to save everyone. My goal is prevent illegal immigration, which is small and largely controlled from nearly every country on earth except for our immediate neighbors.

As for the working poor you care so much about, they aren't getting paid for less than they work, they aren't working. The average number of hours worked by Americans living in poverty was less than 20 hours a week (see related thread on TWW).

Quote :

"Lower wages suck if you don't know it."

Like I said: no American's will receive lower wages thanks to the subsidy.

Quote :

" And the majority of Americans don't agree with you."

Oh yes, consensus politics. If the majority agrees with me then what is the point of even discussing anything, I've won the argument before it even began. What a great way to seek the truth: whatever the majority believes is the unassailable truth.

It is interesting to point out, you evidently didn't find a single error in my logic, except that everyone evidently disagrees with me, that is.

If you think there won't be enough money to cover the subsidy, then you havn't seen the salary of a federal employee lately. Of course, we aren't even sure that large mexican immigration will depress wages. The only time in recent American history that such large-scale uncontrolled immigration took place was the Mariel Boatlift that dumped 125,000 unskilled cubans in the city of Miami over a seven month period in 1980. It increased the local workforce by 7%, the equivalent of dumping 21 million mexicans across the US in 7 months (or 1/4th of Mexico's entire population). "[T]he Mariel immigration had essentially no effect on the wages or employment outcomes of non-Cuban workers in the Miami labor market.” NOTE 3 Nor, in fact, did it have any strong effect on the wages of other Cubans."

NOTE 3 David Card, “The Impact of the Mariel Boatlift on the Miami Labor Market,” Industrial Labor Relations Review, vol. 43, no. 2, January 1990.

http://www.ailf.org/ipc/policy_reports_2003_CubanMigration.asp

[Edited on April 5, 2006 at 10:18 AM. Reason : .,.]

4/5/2006 10:14:08 AM

Leatherneck makes me laugh as much as THABIGL did.

4/5/2006 10:31:01 AM

Quote :

"but you know one of our libertarian friends will come in and blather about there being bureaucracy or something."

Haha, any Libertarian who knows the current process for entering the United States would view your idea as a sensible one, and last I checked, border security and immigration control were probably one of the few things that Libertarians actually support having the government around for.

4/5/2006 10:33:52 AM

Im not racist but fuck that we dont need any more illegals and fucking send em home if they are... worthless spics fucking keeping mexico from an olympic team cuz all their runners swimmers and jumpers are already here

4/5/2006 11:23:41 AM

Quote :

"Besides, anyone other than a capital-L Libertarian would agree that we need someone checking out the people we let in."

Even though I tend to agree with Grumps here, I have to point out that the official position of the "Big L -Libertarian Party" isn't that far off either... From their web site:

Quote :

" The Libertarian Party has long recognized the importance of allowing free and open immigration, understanding that this leads to a growing and more prosperous America. We condemn the xenophobic immigrant bashing that would build a wall around the United States. At the same time, we recognize that the right to enter the United States does not include the right to economic entitlements such as welfare. The freedom to immigrate is a freedom of opportunity, not a guarantee of a handout. Most immigrants pay more in taxes than they receive in government benefits. However, the majority of immigrant taxes are paid to the federal government, while immigrants tend to use mostly state and local services. This can place a burden on states and localities in high immigration areas. However, the answer to this problem lies not in cutting off immigration, but in cutting the services that immigrants consume. The right to immigrate does not imply a right to welfare -- or any other government service. Moreover, this is not simply a matter of saving tax money. The Libertarian Party believes that most government welfare programs are destructive to the recipients themselves. Thus, immigrants would actually be better off without access to these programs. As Edward Crane, President of the Cato Institute, has put it: "Suppose we increased the level of immigration, but the rule would be that immigrants and their descendants would have no access to government social services, including welfare, Social Security, health care, business subsidies, and the public schools. I would argue, first, that there would be no lack of takers for that proposition. Second, within a generation, we would see those immigrants' children going to better and cheaper schools than the average citizen; there would be less poverty, a better work ethic, and proportionately more entrepreneurs than in the rest of U.S. society; and virtually everyone in that group would have inexpensive high-deductible catastrophic health insurance, while the 'truly needy' would be cared for by an immigrant culture that gave proportionately more to charity." "

I disagree with denying non-citizen legal immigrants access to schools...until the public education system is reformed. The system is still too stacked against vouchers and private schools. So gov't schools are pretty much the only game in town for these folks. Perhaps they could pay a small fee for gov't schools to accept their children until they begin paying property taxes.

So here is the amended process:
1) Show up at border.
2) Tell border guy your identifying facts (name, Mexican equivalent to SSN, etc)
3) Sign the notice explaining that, until you are a citizen, you cannot use any federal or state
social service or welfare, except public education.
4) Wait a couple days for the background check to go through.
4) Enter the US.
5) Profit

4/5/2006 11:31:16 AM

I'm a strong libertarian, and the constitution clearly gives congress the right to regulate international trade, namely immigration.

That said, regulation does not equal prohibition

4/5/2006 11:42:05 AM