Date: April 20, 2006
Time: 7:00 pm
Location: Caldwell G-107

The event will feature panelists from both sides, a philosopher and scientist on each. These panelists include Dr. Douglas Jesseph, Professor of Philosophy at NCSU; Dr. Robert Hambourger, Associate Professor of Philosophy at NCSU; John G. Gray, Jr, PhD in Physiology, currently working in the private sector; and Dr. C. Gerald Van Dyke, Professor of Botany at NCSU.

Our panelists will each take a few minutes at the beginning to present their views (in randomly selected order), followed by a short response period; we will then segue into a Q&A session, as we want this to be highly participatory. In the end, we'll have closing remarks by each of our panelists to tie it all together.

We think this event fits well into the current issues of society and public institutions, as it will be informative and ties closely with current debate and policy decisions.

We welcome you to join us on Thursday evening!

Hosted by the ACLU at NCSU and the Wake County ACLU

4/19/2006 1:56:02 AM

can we smoke up before we attend?



just kidding.

4/19/2006 1:57:13 AM

for real though, does it cost anything to attend? what type of crowd are you expecting?

4/19/2006 1:57:57 AM

I'm guessing a wonderful mix of the arrogant and the stupid.

4/19/2006 2:04:58 AM

but mostly hybrids of both

4/19/2006 2:10:02 AM

^ & ^^ [/thread]

4/19/2006 2:11:37 AM

Do mostly ID types go to these things, or the evolution types?

They should record it though, it would be interesting to watch. I don't know if i'd go out of my way to attend, and hear someone ask the question "why doesn't a human grow wings?" or something like that.

[Edited on April 19, 2006 at 2:21 AM. Reason : ]

4/19/2006 2:20:51 AM

I would go if I didn't have tix to a concert, looks pretty cool.

4/19/2006 2:25:26 AM

It would be funny if one side just won outright and the other had to concede....

Then it would also be purposeful,

[Edited on April 19, 2006 at 2:28 AM. Reason : one = won]

4/19/2006 2:27:55 AM

^ That will never happen.

The kind of people who go to these things (mostly) don't go hoping to learn something, they go in order to reinforce their own beliefs. Most of the people in there will hear what they want to hear anyway.

I have a question though I want someone to ask, if they go:

"With the recent issues with global warming, one of the expected fallouts, in the long run, is the extinction of thousands of species that could result. Why is it that some are predicting the extinction of so many species, instead of the evolution? Isn't environmental pressures one of the driving forces of speciation?

Also, people who believe the world was created 7000 years ago are retarded."

Please report back with the response.

4/19/2006 2:45:48 AM

which one is the one where you still believe in god and jesus and all that stuff but definitely know thats its pretty obvious humans came from some ape like creature, like homo habillis or something

4/19/2006 2:52:37 AM

That's evolution (and what most people really believe, whether they like to admit it or not).


[Edited on April 19, 2006 at 2:55 AM. Reason : ]

4/19/2006 2:54:47 AM

^^denial.






j/k jesus loves you hard



[Edited on April 19, 2006 at 2:55 AM. Reason : real hard]

4/19/2006 2:55:03 AM

^ you too

4/19/2006 3:05:37 AM

Shit I'll go just to see

lose.

You will be lucky if he stops umming long enough to get to a point, and doesn't suddenly get side tracked on some story about how he was 12.

4/19/2006 3:07:47 AM

Yeah I think Dyke is gonna stick it to him.

4/19/2006 3:11:04 AM

I want to see a fist fight

4/19/2006 3:11:08 AM

Quote :

"Do mostly ID types go to these things, or the evolution types?"

i would guess ID people. Evolutionists/Scientists have nothing to gain from this bullshit. Participating in a formal debate only gives ID more undeserved credibility. Debates like this and the one in Kansas attempts to put ID and Evolution on the same scientific level, trying to convince people that this is an either/or issue and you have to choose from one of these sides. That couldn't be further from the truth - at the moment, there is only one rational choice. It's a choice that should be studied with a skeptical, or at least critical, eye, just like with everything in science, but it's the best that the scientific community has right now. Trying to mix in ID/Creationism is just the Fundamentalists trying to undermine scientific facts and data which may contradict their precious book.

4/19/2006 3:17:33 AM

^^^

4/19/2006 3:23:17 AM

^ You can't to yourself.

^^ I figured that was the case, but I didn't want to be the close-minded evolution clod to say it

4/19/2006 3:24:13 AM

^ But I saw what I did there

4/19/2006 3:25:25 AM

Quote :

"i would guess ID people. Evolutionists/Scientists have nothing to gain from this bullshit. Participating in a formal debate only gives ID more undeserved credibility. Debates like this and the one in Kansas attempts to put ID and Evolution on the same scientific level, trying to convince people that this is an either/or issue and you have to choose from one of these sides. That couldn't be further from the truth - at the moment, there is only one rational choice. It's a choice that should be studied with a skeptical, or at least critical, eye, just like with everything in science, but it's the best that the scientific community has right now. Trying to mix in ID/Creationism is just the Fundamentalists trying to undermine scientific facts and data which may contradict their precious book."

I wish I had time to go to ask them what the ID's thought about The Flying Spaghetti Monster.

http://www.venganza.org/

4/19/2006 3:34:53 AM

agentlion pretty much nailed it re the panelists. I can see each of the panelists getting up there and saying "there isn't sufficient proof for X", whatever X might be.

gg ACLU@NCSU. Would attend if I was still in Raleigh. Make sure you have a good/strong moderator for both the panelists and the audience

4/19/2006 6:57:47 AM

i would laugh if someone brought up the flying spaghetti monster

4/19/2006 6:58:03 AM

yeah, agentlion hit this one on the head. Nothing else to add here.

4/19/2006 7:16:50 AM

Quote :

" With the recent issues with global warming, one of the expected fallouts, in the long run, is the extinction of thousands of species that could result. Why is it that some are predicting the extinction of so many species, instead of the evolution? Isn't environmental pressures one of the driving forces of speciation?"

Ask yourself this: why is it easier for me to survive a punch to the face than a bullet?

4/19/2006 7:36:53 AM

Who are you asking?

4/19/2006 8:02:24 AM

“Evolutionists/Scientists have nothing to gain from this bullshit. Participating in a formal debate only gives ID more undeserved credibility.”

I’d look at this mostly as the guy they listed first (Jesseph with his shiny degree from Princeton) as a philosopher vs the evolutionists. He publicly stuff like this a lot so I think this is probably more his doing than the scientists doing. Science might lose credibility for tackling an issue like this, but its philosophy’s job to give every idea shot… atleast until its shot down.

Regardless of the quality of the arguments on both side I expect the general out come to be people seeing an argument and instead of making a firm decision, instead deciding to go with some general vague middle ground of “Maybe they’re both right, maybe evolution is the tool that god intelligently used oooo ahhh that’s deep man.”

4/19/2006 9:02:42 AM

^^^ Right. A gradual change will provide the necessary environmental pressure so that things evolve at a higher rate. If global warning significantly changes the environment over a short period, organisms will not be able to adapt quick enough and will die off. Of course some organisms will survive because they are better equipped for a different climate.

Anyway, the debate is going to be pointless because the folks that have an opinion will leave feeling better about themselves and the folks who don't know by now will always be on the fence.

[Edited on April 19, 2006 at 9:22 AM. Reason : ]

4/19/2006 9:20:54 AM

damn

why go to the debate

you got plenty of arrogance and stupid right in this here thread

4/19/2006 9:25:05 AM

I like how whenever these debates take place, people will walk out of there thinking they've heard all there is to hear about the two sides when in reality, there's massive research on either side and no two-person team in a short period time can encompass that.

So even if one side gets PWNT, it doesn't mean that's the end. FYI, Jessup regularly gets pwned in the debates I've seen him in, Van Dyke knows his stuff, and I don't know about Hambourger or Grey.

4/19/2006 9:37:39 AM

Intelligent Design

lol

4/19/2006 9:41:23 AM

^

Quote :

"damn why go to the debate you got plenty of arrogance and stupid right in this here thread"

4/19/2006 9:46:41 AM

look

we could get into intelligent design if you really want

but something tells me you don't

because if you got into it yourself, you wouldn't put stock in it

4/19/2006 10:09:33 AM

im just glad you have everything figured out

and know how everyone else views ID in relation to Evolution

gg

[Edited on April 19, 2006 at 11:19 AM. Reason : durr grammr]

4/19/2006 11:18:52 AM

if you want to claim that exercising a bit of scientific knowledge and common sense is "knowing everything" then sure, i guess i know it all

4/19/2006 11:29:56 AM

the funny part is

you think youre exercising scientific knowledge and common sense

4/19/2006 11:45:53 AM

The Earth wasn't created by God 7000 years ago. This is what IDist believe, but they often won't say it outright if you ask them.

4/19/2006 1:10:59 PM

Quote :

"The Earth wasn't created by God 7000 years ago. This is what IDist believe, but they often won't say it outright if you ask them."

I wouldn't think that is a requirement for ID. At least not in the way I've heard the concept tossed around.

4/19/2006 1:19:13 PM

I'll just sum up my comments from the last thread that was made for the last ID debate.

THE WHOLE FUCKING THING IS A SHAM.

Some religious nutjobs couldn't get a creationist book into public schools, because creationism has no scientific merit. So, they CHANGED THE WORD creationism to intelligent design and RESUBMITTED THE BOOK.

http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=373986

How can there be ANY discussion of a completely baseless belief? And you are a fucking sucker if you lend any validity to it.

I have no problem with creationists, I think that's an absolutely valid belief and part of one's faith, but believing in ID in any part is a damn sham.

4/19/2006 1:23:09 PM

^
Yeah, but, haven't they been doing that throughout most of history? Rewriting/resubmitting things with a different name so they meet some approval factor?

Wolfpacker did make a good point ... probably won't learn everything from this debate ... just a few small peices here and there.

[Edited on April 19, 2006 at 1:30 PM. Reason : .]

4/19/2006 1:30:09 PM

^That's just the catholic church, most of the protestant factions have done pretty well. At least, in comparison.

4/19/2006 1:31:52 PM

Well, if one of the speakers brings up irreducible complexity ask them about this work on molecular evolution of hormone-receptor interactions:
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/312/5770/61

4/19/2006 1:43:39 PM

Quote :

"damn why go to the debate you got plenty of arrogance and stupid right in this here thread"

4/19/2006 2:03:55 PM

^Because you sure are providing insight into alternative explanations. Whereas I posted the legal finding of a court, along with proof that one of the main texts for ID was a damn hoax.

4/19/2006 3:02:47 PM

Quote :

"The Earth wasn't created by God 7000 years ago. This is what IDist believe, but they often won't say it outright if you ask them."

try YEC

4/19/2006 3:08:17 PM

Quote :

" The event will feature panelists from both sides"

What about the side that doesn't believe that creationism and evolution are mutually exclusive?

4/19/2006 3:40:58 PM

the majority, while the least passionate, are the least represented my friend

[Edited on April 19, 2006 at 3:43 PM. Reason : irony]

4/19/2006 3:42:39 PM

^^Because that would involve people with common sense and an open mind... in order to have debates, these people must be totally absent.

4/19/2006 3:44:24 PM

evolution is intelligent design. what's the argument.

4/19/2006 3:50:31 PM