http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/08/01/cuba.castro/index.html

Quote :

"HAVANA, Cuba (CNN) -- Cuban President Fidel Castro was undergoing intestinal surgery and provisionally handed over power in the Communist island nation to his younger brother Raul, according to a statement read on Cuban television Monday night."

Quote :

"Little Havana celebrates The streets of Miami's Cuban-exile community erupted in excitement after news of Castro's illness spread. People poured into the streets waving Cuban and American flags, chanting "Cuba Libre (free Cuba)." The roads were gridlocked with honking cars and fireworks lit the skies. "It is a cause for celebration," said Miami-Dade County Mayor Carlos Alvarez, while asking residents to show some restraint and keep traffic flowing throughout the city. "We certainly don't want to hinder in any way, shape or form ... the enthusiasm we all feel.""

Quote :

"Increasing U.S.-Cuba tensions Castro's surgery came just weeks after a U.S. government report called for the United States to have assistance in Cuba within weeks of Castro's death to support a transitional government and help move the country toward democracy."

8/1/2006 7:40:03 AM

how old is castro now, 178?

8/1/2006 7:43:32 AM

181, you were close though. You better get the answer to this thread out of him before he kicks the bucket:

http://thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=422483

8/1/2006 7:51:13 AM

So what are the chances of him kicking the bucket during surgery?

8/1/2006 8:14:18 AM

what are the chances of cuba NOT SUCKING?

8/1/2006 8:20:21 AM

As good as any Central American free-market democracy.

8/1/2006 8:22:49 AM

Wait, why is everyone so happy? Just because Castro dies does not mean the wall is going to come down. Is Raul a democrat destined to lose his first election?

Cuba is effectively a family run business, Raul will rule until his death, after that one of their children will rule, etc etc.

8/1/2006 9:08:31 AM

8/1/2006 9:12:14 AM

LoneShark, people are happy because the icon of communism there will be gone. After that, people's pride isn't in play as much as it was before. We can go and talk to them about opening their economy in return for decreased sanctions without Castro saying "Bay of Pigs...hahah!"

8/1/2006 9:16:13 AM

Should be interesting to see how the Adminstration handles this IF Castro does die.

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they can't fuck this up too.

8/1/2006 11:17:15 AM

what better time to invade Cuba.

Hurry up and get God's permission, do what you gotta do.

Strike now, Bush, while the iron is hot!

[Edited on August 1, 2006 at 12:14 PM. Reason : d]

8/1/2006 12:14:00 PM

^joking?

its high time we at least drop the embargo. seriously, what can they do to us now? i want some damn cuban cigars.

8/1/2006 12:43:24 PM

Castro is actually one of my heroes. I really have a lot of respect for the guy, and tend to think the only reason we don't get along is heavy-handed, incompetent diplomacy on our part during and immediately after the revolution. I also tend to think of Cuba as one of the rather more successful experiments in Socialism, which seems to have done the people there a lot of good.

In short, I won't be celebrating if he croaks.

8/1/2006 2:41:09 PM

I'm wearing my fidel shirt today, got to show some support you know

8/1/2006 2:46:06 PM

Yes, Cuba is definitely a successful experiment in Socialism--everyone is equally poor and destitute.

8/1/2006 2:48:18 PM

have you ever been to cuba?
do you know what cuba was like pre-Castro?
do you know how it is in the neighboring countries who can even trade with the US?

8/1/2006 2:53:47 PM

Quote :

"its high time we at least drop the embargo. seriously, what can they do to us now? i want some damn cuban cigars."

we keep the embargo until castro dies and then use it as a bargaining chip whenever someone more moderate takes power.

Quote :

"I also tend to think of Cuba as one of the rather more successful experiments in Socialism, which seems to have done the people there a lot of good."

That is partially our fault. We gave every anti-Castro cuban asylum here, making the remainder of the cuban population very pro-castro. We have more cubans in the US (Miami) than they have in cuba.

8/1/2006 2:57:31 PM

I tend to think that getting them over here allowed the hate to fester and survive, whereas if they were over there, it would have slowly faded away.

[Edited on August 1, 2006 at 3:10 PM. Reason : ]

8/1/2006 3:10:07 PM

His popularity aside, he's done a hell of a lot for education and health care in Cuba, and I think it would be a relatively prosperous country (by Latin American standards) if we weren't always sitting on it.

8/1/2006 3:10:24 PM

Cuba has a higher literacy rate than the US and VERY good healthcare.

I would say Cuba is a slightly successful socialist nation. Fidel is not a nice man, but he sure as hell made fools out of several American presidential administrations- he's a smart man.

However, Cuba is a country rich in natural resources, a great tourist destination for Europeans, etc... you can't fuck up that place. Before Fidel took over, there were severe problems with political corruption, but the Cuban economy was the second strongest spanish-speaking economy in the world. But the corruption and poor qualities of life for lower class people created a catalyst for a revolution and were never mitigated. Regardless, I definitely think Cuba could be a lot better if they had a working relationship with the US.

Needless to say, I won't be celebrating his death with all the Cubans on Calle Ocho here in Miami, but I won't be sad. Hopefully, things will change for the better.

[Edited on August 1, 2006 at 3:16 PM. Reason : :]

8/1/2006 3:15:11 PM

Oh, and CharlesHF -- Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate than the United States does. It has a higher literacy rate than the United States does. It has the same life expectancy that we do. It has a GDP on par with all of the decidedly non-socialist countries in its area.

So yeah, I'd call that successful.

8/1/2006 3:15:50 PM

When castro dies, all the cubans will pour out of miami, and invade cuba.

8/1/2006 3:47:23 PM

Quote :

"Fidel is not a nice man"

what does he do that is mean...when i see him on tv, usually he is getting handshakes and hugs from the citizens

8/1/2006 3:49:20 PM

GrumpyGOP, the CIA World Fact Book pwns you.

First off, I'll give you this--yes, they have a lower infant mortality rate than we do--by essentially nothing.
The US:

Quote :

"total: 6.43 deaths/1,000 live births male: 7.09 deaths/1,000 live births female: 5.74 deaths/1,000 live births (2006 est.)"

Now Cuba:

Quote :

"total: 6.22 deaths/1,000 live births male: 6.99 deaths/1,000 live births female: 5.41 deaths/1,000 live births (2006 est.)"

Literacy Rate?
US:

Quote :

"definition: age 15 and over can read and write total population: 99% male: 99% female: 99% (2003 est.)"

Cuba:

Quote :

"definition: age 15 and over can read and write total population: 97% male: 97.2% female: 96.9% (2003 est.)"

Life Expectancy--
US:

Quote :

"total population: 77.85 years male: 75.02 years female: 80.82 years (2006 est.)"

Cuba:

Quote :

"total population: 77.41 years male: 75.11 years female: 79.85 years (2006 est.)"

[Edited on August 1, 2006 at 3:59 PM. Reason : ]

8/1/2006 3:59:13 PM

I can't say those numbers do anything to hurt Grumpy's argument.

8/1/2006 4:04:08 PM

We have a higher literacy rate than Cuba--he said we don't. And the other two, we're behind by something like 0.01...which really doesn't matter.

If GrumpyGOP wants to go live in Cuba, go for it. They'll fuck you over hardcore. That's why they're all trying to come here in little boats...

8/1/2006 4:07:03 PM

Quote :

"When castro dies, all the cubans will pour out of miami, and invade cuba."

haha, not gonna happen.

Also, there are a lot more Cuban-Americans widespread throughout the entire US, not just in Miami.

8/1/2006 4:08:59 PM

funniest picture ever

8/1/2006 4:11:16 PM

HIS FINGER IS NOT ON THE TRIGGER!!!

8/1/2006 4:14:42 PM

Interesting link.... Comparing US healthcare and education versus Cuban healthcare and education.....

http://www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=2553

8/1/2006 4:15:42 PM

Quote :

"do you know what cuba was like pre-Castro?"

Yes, Kris, life generally sucked back in the 1950s, so what?

And I still don't see why anyone thinks everything will change just because Castro dies. Dictatorial states only fall for a few reasons: the rulers give up (East Germany, Soviet Union), a military coup, the people revolt with lots of blood-shed, or they get invaded.

Is Raul eager to give up? If so, why did Castro pick him!? Is the U.S. waiting for Castro's death to invade? Are the people sufficiently armed to launch a successful revolt?

And why is "life expectancy and child mortality" a going measure of standard of living? Health care is free and Cuba does a great job of securing this industry. That doesn't excuse it for the workings of every other industry of production. It has a world-class health care system yet still only manages to eek out a material standard of living half that of the Dominican Republic!

[Edited on August 1, 2006 at 4:30 PM. Reason : .,.]

8/1/2006 4:20:13 PM

Quote :

"Yes, Kris, life generally sucked back in the 1950s, so what?"

It's not just that it sucked, it's what was in cuba back then. Cuba was the mobster's paradise. It was like their own little country, they had the government in their pocket, gambling, alcohol, drugs and prostitution accounted for much of the business there, while the general populace stayed poor and stupid.

Quote :

"And why is "life expectancy and child mortality" a going measure of standard of living?"

It shows the general state of the poorer people, in this case the cubans are still living in close to first world health standards. Standard of living, and a country in general can be judged by the state of it's poorest citizens. I'm sure that seems very unliberitarian to you, but when have liberitarians ever cared about other people?

Quote :

"It has a world-class health care system yet still only manages to eek out a material standard of living half that of the Dominican Republic!"

That's mainly due to trade sanctions. It's tough to really make money if you can't sell to the largest importing consumer base in the world, which happens to only be a stone's throw away.

8/1/2006 5:37:25 PM

Quote :

"That's mainly due to trade sanctions. It's tough to really make money if you can't sell to the largest importing consumer base in the world, which happens to only be a stone's throw away."

Why? Just sell to every other major importing customer base such as every other industrialized country on Earth. Or, I don't know, be self reliant and industrialize yourself.

For the longest time almost all trade in South East Asia was with the industrialized world on the other side of the world, surely Cuba could copy this development model since Europe is so much closer to Cuba than it is to Hong Kong.

8/1/2006 6:39:13 PM

How long was Stalin dead before the soviets told the world?

8/1/2006 7:58:48 PM

yall are just trolling, castro is a nice guy...look at the video clips they play of him

8/1/2006 11:00:52 PM

poor communists, theyre just misunderstood! if it wasnt for the big bad us, everything would be great.

how about some statistics on this:

-average standard of living under castro
-political prisoners under castro
-opponents murdered under castro
-economic freedom under castro
-taxation under castro
-privately owned businesses under castro

8/2/2006 12:23:11 AM

Quote :

"-political prisoners under castro -opponents murdered under castro"

are legitimate concerns.

The rest are dumb.

"Hey, let's judge how well a communist economy is doing based on how much it resembles a free market economy."

Quote :

"Just sell to every other major importing customer base such as every other industrialized country on Earth."

Exactly, and they're doing just that. Which is why we have zero diplomatic leverage with them. There's zero reason to continue it.

8/2/2006 12:34:46 AM

Quote :

"Why? Just sell to every other major importing customer base such as every other industrialized country on Earth."

They all sell most of their products to the US, considering they are by far the largest consumer in the world.

Quote :

"Or, I don't know, be self reliant and industrialize yourself."

I know you know what comparitive advantage is. You know the benefits of trade as well if not better than most everyone here. Any country not taking full advantage of it isn't going to prosper as much as if they would with it.

Quote :

"For the longest time almost all trade in South East Asia was with the industrialized world on the other side of the world, surely Cuba could copy this development model since Europe is so much closer to Cuba than it is to Hong Kong."

The problem between your comparison here is that the US buys a lot more stuff than europe.

Quote :

"average standard of living under castro"

We've already covered that.

Quote :

"-economic freedom under castro -taxation under castro -privately owned businesses under castro"

Who cares about that shit? If their system works without it, who are we to tell them our way of doing it is better?

8/2/2006 12:35:09 AM

Quote :

""Hey, let's judge how well a communist economy is doing based on how much it resembles a free market economy." "

communist economies might be a-ok in your book, but last time i checked, they allowed for zero personal freedom and choice and made an individual subservient to the big state government. sounds pretty bad to me, but what do i know? im a dirty capitalist.

kris's drivel is expected. i dont understand why someone would desire so much control over their lives.

8/2/2006 12:49:38 AM

Quote :

"kris's drivel is expected"

Hillarious coming from a well known and suspended troll

THA BIG GIRL STRIKES AGIAN!

8/2/2006 12:51:29 AM

Quote :

"i dont understand why someone would desire so much control over their lives."

Quote :

"i dont understand why someone would desire so much control over their lives."

Quote :

"i dont understand why someone would desire so much control over their lives."

I'm just sticking up for what I believe in and challenging your views.

8/2/2006 12:54:41 AM

First off you're trolling, you always have been.

Secondly, that same defense could be used by someone who belives the sky is purple.
I don't care about "freedom" it's a social construct anyways. I wish for the system which functions the most effectively. Simply due to economies of scale, one firm is going to be able to do this the best. This firm being the government allows competition to be enforced via political processes. It really shouldn't be the economic system's functionality that's question, we should be asking which political process can best enforce market equilibrium values.

8/2/2006 1:01:54 AM

We should count ourselves lucky that we don't live in a country like Cuba, where the gov't runs rampant over the basic Human rights of life, liberty and property...er wait....

8/2/2006 2:21:39 AM

man whatever, the US is the fucking best country to live in and the whole god damn world knows it

8/2/2006 2:23:48 AM

Quote :

"We have more cubans in the US (Miami) than they have in cuba."

If that is true I think we can end the whole "Is Cuba or the US better to live in" argument.

Why do the people celebrate? That's an easy one also. They celebrate because there is more hope of change. They sure won't get one overnight but I'm also sure that the Cubans in exile in the US feel like they are much closer to an end goal than they were when Fidel was in complete control. A Fidel lead Cuba pretty much assured them that their goal would never be met. Now a possibility exists. Plus, I'm sure some Cubans have been waiting for this guy's demise for decades. They'd be happy to see him go irregardless of who is taking over afterward. Let's just hope that Raul, or whoever, doesn't turn out to be worse for them than what they had before.

I also find myself asking this question. Who knows more about what is best for Cuba. Someone that has lived in both Cuba and the United States, or someone that has lived in NC all their life? Granted a few conditions come with that comment. 1) You probably aren't going to get an unbiased opinion from a group that fled Cuba to be here - the other side of the story isn't (or can't ) be told 2) Fidel has been in power for what? 50 years? Most Cubans don't even remember what it was like before when Cuba was a "gangster's paradise". That doesn't mean they shouldn't be constantly looking for a better way of life.

[Edited on August 2, 2006 at 7:40 AM. Reason : -]

8/2/2006 7:38:45 AM

Quote :

"I don't care about "freedom" it's a social construct anyways. I wish for the system which functions the most effectively. Simply due to economies of scale, one firm is going to be able to do this the best. This firm being the government allows competition to be enforced via political processes. It really shouldn't be the economic system's functionality that's question, we should be asking which political process can best enforce market equilibrium values. "

Kris, you have got to stop masquerading socialism/communism as good economics.
First off, a "firm" has to be seeking profit maximizing behavior. A government is not seeking profit, and therefore will never function as efficiently as a firm. Second, you are going to have to prove that economies of scale exist and form a natural monopoly in whatever the fuck industry you were talking about. Natural monopolies are rare, and mostly pop up around energy and some forms of transportation.

Please, just admit you're a communist and you think the shit would work out well. This "its economic efficiency" shit is unnerving.

8/2/2006 7:47:40 AM

Quote :

"A government is not seeking profit, and therefore will never function as efficiently as a firm."

Why not?
What motivation does the government have not to function efficently. You need to show that it is in the government's best interest to waste money.

Quote :

"Second, you are going to have to prove that economies of scale exist"

You want me to prove that economies of scale exists?

Quote :

"and form a natural monopoly in whatever the fuck industry you were talking about. Natural monopolies are rare, and mostly pop up around energy and some forms of transportation."

Economies of scale exist more than just in extreme cases of natural monopolies. Let's compare Wal-Mart to joes grocery. Walmart has been able to put lots of local joe's grocerys out of business. Surely we can't think that every single walmart store operates more efficently than every little joe's grocery, it's simply the fact that walmart is larger thus enjoys lower fixed cost. This is an example of economies of scale.

8/2/2006 1:19:40 PM

Quote :

"You need to show that it is in the government's best interest to waste money."

Easy. How much time does that average office worker spend browsing the Internet? Manager's aren't that different: they want to show up late, leave early, spend their time not working. It takes constant effort to find and implement new labor saving techniques.

In soviet Russia factory managers got an end of term cash bonus if they met their tonnage targets, so nothing else mattered. Factories were over manned, inputs were wasted, capital was wasted, quality was sacrificed, and effort wasted, all to meet but not exceed arbitrary targets (if you produced more then they raised next year's targets). They were not rewarded for anything but meeting production targets, so that is all they did. After 70 years of experimentation, the Soviet economy couldn't get the incentives right to encourage managers to increase factor productivity, why do you think they will do any better in the future?

In a free market system factory managers (owners) are rewarded for minimizing inputs and maximizing production.

The best you can hope for in a government run factory is to mimic free-market incentives and free-enterprise results, so what would be the point?

[Edited on August 2, 2006 at 4:53 PM. Reason : .,.]

8/2/2006 4:52:43 PM

8/2/2006 5:01:54 PM

Quote :

"Easy. How much time does that average office worker spend browsing the Internet? Manager's aren't that different: they want to show up late, leave early, spend their time not working. It takes constant effort to find and implement new labor saving techniques."

That's something akin to stealing, it's in their immediate best interests to do it, but in the long run, they will get caught. But why would this apply to the government? We're talking about individuals.

Quote :

"In soviet Russia factory managers got an end of term cash bonus if they met their tonnage targets, so nothing else mattered. Factories were over manned, inputs were wasted, capital was wasted, quality was sacrificed, and effort wasted, all to meet but not exceed arbitrary targets (if you produced more then they raised next year's targets)."

That's an argument against quotas, not the government.

Quote :

"The best you can hope for in a government run factory is to mimic free-market incentives and free-enterprise results, so what would be the point?"

I've already explained why one firm could possibly produce more. Enforcing efficiency is a job I'd think would be best left up to sociology.

8/2/2006 5:59:52 PM