I'm thinking about trying to set up a salt water fish tank but I've never done it before and don't really have any idea where to start. I've done some research on it and have a general idea what it theoretically requires I'm just looking for a little practical guidance.

What are the bare essentials to make it work, common mistakes to avoid, what kind of minimum cost am I looking at here to get it going, etc.

9/5/2006 1:06:24 AM

wow, I looked up this topic on the web like 3 days ago. nice coincidence.

most of the information I got came from about.com. They have very good tutorials on constructing a tank and how to get it started (your main interest). I want to build a 22"H x 28"W x 4"D to divide a space in my house. What are you planning on doing with the tank/what are you putting in it?

[Edited on September 5, 2006 at 1:21 AM. Reason : ]

9/5/2006 1:20:08 AM

I don't want anything huge (30 - 35 gallon maybe?) and don't plan on building the tank myself. I still don't really have a good idea of how big a 20 gallon tank is vs. a 30 gallon tank etc.

9/5/2006 1:36:23 AM

bigger is better and easier

i wouldnt bother with a 20 gallon

9/5/2006 5:53:02 AM

I've got a 20 gallon salt and it's doing just fine (well, right now I'm having a problem with leaking water and electricity) but anyways! I've had both lots of corals and I was able to push the max on the number of fish in there too - one of the biggest problems I've faced with the 20 gallon is evaporation. The water evaporates so fast - so I've resorted to getting a glass canopy on the top as well as using a top off to compensate for this. XcChick is right though - the bigger the better, due to the less possibility of crashes due to fluctuating nitrates, pH and salinity. I'd go for the 30 if you were just beginning.

[Edited on September 5, 2006 at 6:31 AM. Reason : -]

9/5/2006 6:29:30 AM

i like the standard 55, just make sure you don't get anything with odd angles or curves or anything if you are prone to staring at the tank in facination, like me. it'll give you a headache.

9/5/2006 7:31:38 AM

My first was a 40g breeder, a very very good beginner tank because the dimensions of it allow you alot of room to play with aquascaping since it is about 18" wide as opposed to a standard 12" wide tank. Then there was the 3'x3'x1' 80g clam tank, pretty cool tank, just takes up alot of room. Then the 54 corner, a very cool tank and great if you are short on space.

You can see all the tanks (sans the 40g) and how they are/were setup here:

http://65.190.199.12/

My current reef tank is a 2.5g shown on that page and it is probably the most fun one out of all the tanks I have built/designed due to the small scale of it. However, this is also one of the hardest size tanks to actually develop and get to thrive and requires daily attention.

9/5/2006 10:27:11 AM

that looks like a picture you took on day 1. what does it look like now?

9/5/2006 4:16:54 PM

Have a shit ton of excess money.

^Day one probably didn't have anything but live rock.

Oh, and with the bigger is better thing, keep in mind that moving it will be a living nightmare, so if you're in a dorm or not permanent apartment...I'd wait. Also, some complexes require you to have renter's insurance for larger set ups due to weight.

[Edited on September 5, 2006 at 4:51 PM. Reason : merf]

9/5/2006 4:49:05 PM

oh, yeah, over 40 at sumter square required insurance, anything where i'm at now requires it

9/5/2006 5:16:52 PM

You know this can be a realy expensive hobby, right?

9/5/2006 7:15:34 PM

Quote :

"that looks like a picture you took on day 1. what does it look like now?"

lol, that shot is @ 6 months old, thnx for trying to be an ass. Heres what it looked like day 1:



That rock is hand made by me also, Aragacrete.

9/5/2006 8:07:26 PM

Define expensive. I have a 265 gallon tank that I am considering converting to saltwater. What as far as equipment would I need to purchase? I allready have a 50gal wet/dry filter system using overflows @ 2 corners. The Tank is drilled with 2 more holes in the center for additional accessories. I dont even know what type of equipment I would need to purchase. Can anyone give me a true cost on the conversion and weekly/daily upkeep? Thanks

9/5/2006 8:11:40 PM

a 265? ouch, I could do a nice full reef setup in that tank, but it would be an easy $10k tank. If you go fish only w/ live rock or fake deco it will be alot cheaper and you can use your existing wet/dry. But if you go reef you will need to convert your wet/dry to a regular sump to house a protein skimmer and then get alot of other stuff such as calcium dosers, UV equipment, timers, chiller, ballasts (for full metal halide setup, which is $texas).

When I was managing fish world one of my best customers bought 2 tanks from me, a 90g which was a reef which final cost was around $4k, and a 220g reef whose final cost was around $8k. Daily upkeep costs are generally just top off water and weekly dosing of any additives you need.

9/5/2006 8:16:55 PM

Deff not going reef. It would be a fish only tank. I bought my tank from Fish World when you worked there. Glad to see you moved on, Lotsa great people have worked there but owner of that place is an ass. I waited 7 weeks to get my tank delivered after it was promised to me in 2 weeks tops.

9/5/2006 8:55:18 PM

Yeah, but it was prolly the best learning experience I have had as far as the saltwater hobby goes. And getting tons of free shit was nice too.

Yeah a fish only tank would be cake since you already have most of the equipment, I would prolly still invest in a semi decent protein skimmer, especially if your wet/dry can fit one in it, but none of the other fancy crap I mentioned, except maybe a UV sterilizer if you wanted to drop cash on one.

9/5/2006 9:00:41 PM

So I take it most of the expense in a reef tank is in the Lights?

9/5/2006 9:06:17 PM

yes, those and all the technical equipment alot of ppl buy with larger tanks, such as dosers and whatnot, but yet, a full halide setup for your tank could run you in the $K's

9/5/2006 9:11:31 PM

Most if not all the equipment you need to run a stable system can be purchased far below what the local stores sell them for. If you ever pay 10k to setup a reef in a 265 you clearly have more money than time.

9/5/2006 9:26:10 PM

Taikimoto: What is your water change protocol? Have you ever tried a denitrifier?

9/5/2006 9:37:44 PM

Well, you can purchase new stuff on the net through trusted sites, like marinedepot, or get second hand crap that could burst into flames through ebay or something. I buy stuff online from trusted sites all the time, but sometimes it is cheaper to get it from a LFS when you factor shipping costs and shipping time.

for instance a decent MH setup for the 265 for reef would be something like:

http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=PF69960

which is just the hood, add another $350 for the ballast, $70-100 for each MH bulb, 30-50 for each PC bulb. The same setup at a LFS would cost you 1.5 to 2 times as much easy.

Then add up all the live rock you will get, and go ahead and add in the coral/fish costs just to stock it, and I mean really stock it, not have a coral here and there but have it looking like a small piece of the ocean. Sure you can do stuff alot cheaper and cut corners, but the end result will show it. Id rather not half ass something like a large reef tank, but thats just me. Hell, ppl spend $10k just for some stupid rims for their cars, why not a reef tank?

You can do stuff really really cheap if you have first hand contacts with a LFS or even a wholeseller like Blue Ridge, Sun Pet, or Royale. Markup on livestock at a LFS is usually AT LEAST 400% and higher and at least 100% and higher on dry goods.

9/5/2006 9:38:53 PM

Quote :

"Taikimoto: What is your water change protocol? Have you ever tried a denitrifier?"

Siphon some water out, pour some back in. Never messed around with anything techincal on my home tanks, but I have installed plenty of auto-top off systems that seemed to work ok, never really worked with many denitrifier's because of the sheer cost of them, I have also never had a problem with nitrates/nitrites in any of my tanks in the years I have been keeping them, therefore not needing one. I would say if you are in need of one then you should look at your caretaking procedures first and reevaluate them, as you really shouldnt have a need for one.

But the good thing about denitrifier's is that if you use it for a temporary solution to a high NO3 content you can usually turn it into something else like a calcium reactor by just swapping out a few parts.

9/5/2006 9:44:27 PM

I started like many others just walking into a fish store and asking, "what do I need to make this work". When I was ready to upgrade I realized that isn't the best approach and knew where I could save the money and when I needed to buy premium parts. With the lighting system and skimmer I order online but bought quality products. As for live rock, I made it myself and it is quite a bit better than most you find in the stores in terms of shapes , size, and porosity. That alone would save a massive amount of money with the going rate of $7-8 per pound. The stand/canopy can easily be built by hand if you have even a little skill with tools. Thats more of what I meant by saving money. If you aren't in a hurry and can spend 1/2 a year curing LR, designing, and building a canopy and stand then you should still end up with a quality tank. To stock a 265 with colony size corals would have a hefty price tag for livestock alone. I on the other hand have no problem starting with 20-30 small frags and watching it grow.

As taiki said I would never take the change of ordering used parts from ebay. Check some of the local reef clubs though because they can have some great deals on dry goods and livestock.

9/5/2006 9:55:26 PM

^ would you put in a word for me at fish world? id love to work there if I had the opportunity.

9/5/2006 9:58:36 PM

Hey gk, since no one else mentioned it, if you ever used copper meds in your freshwater tank you cannot convert it to salt.

9/5/2006 10:00:07 PM

Taikimoto worked at Fish Pros, talk to him

9/5/2006 10:00:19 PM

Quote :

"^Day one probably didn't have anything but live rock. "

I meant "day 1"as in the first day he loaded all that shit in there.

Quote :

"lol, that shot is @ 6 months old, thnx for trying to be an ass. "

no shit. that's why I asked to see what it looked like now--and I wasn't trying to be an ass--dumbass.

Besides a little green slim algae in the bottom left that tank is spotless. You pretty much took that picture as soon as you put that shit in there (after cycling). I just wanted to see a little more mature/recent picture. thx for being an ass.

Quote :

"I would prolly still invest in a semi decent protein skimmer, especially if your wet/dry can fit one in it, but none of the other fancy crap I mentioned, except maybe a UV sterilizer if you wanted to drop cash on one."

1. you don't want a wet/dry! Plenty of live rock will do just fine for the denitrification process, and provide room for anaerobic bacteria that will break down the nitrate. The system will almost be at steady state as long as your bio-load is not too great. Now add a refugium and you are good to go.

2. A semi-decent skimmer? That is the single most important piece of equipment you will put on your tank.

3. except maybe a UV sterilizer? That is the last thing you need!!! And with a reef tank actually does more harm than good--unless you are having certain issues that warrant it. Fish stores use the hell out of UV on their fish display tanks because they are constantly bringing shit in. You are much better off putting that money into a better skimmer and RO/DI water unit for your water changes.

As for the question about water changes.
10% weekly 20%bi-weekly. Especially the way people tend to overstock their tanks.

[Edited on September 5, 2006 at 10:03 PM. Reason : .]

Also here goes some links for you. The best thing to do is read as much as possible.
http://wetwebmedia.com/marine/index.htm
and this is a great forum
http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/
http://www.reefcentral.com/

The classic book to own is "The conscientious marine aquarist" by Fenner, R. (2001).
buy it and read the entire book as a starter

[Edited on September 5, 2006 at 10:18 PM. Reason : .]

9/5/2006 10:02:00 PM

Ive never used copper meds in any of my tanks. But thanks for the reminder

9/5/2006 10:20:57 PM

Quote :

"Hey gk, since no one else mentioned it, if you ever used copper meds in your freshwater tank you cannot convert it to salt."

Not entirely true. If it's a fish only tank it would be just fine--but that's boring anyway. Not to mention less stable than a FOWLR setup with snails, crabs, and shrimp. Besides you can throw in a few corals that do OK with some neglect. It's all the other wonderful things that can't tolerate Copper.

9/5/2006 10:35:46 PM

Quote :

"^ would you put in a word for me at fish world? id love to work there if I had the opportunity."

They are actually hiring a PT person right now last I checked. As long as you have some basic understanding you should get in, and you will learn alot in the first few weeks.

Quote :

"I meant "day 1"as in the first day he loaded all that shit in there."

No, what you typed was Day 1, as in Day 1 of starting the tank. If you want to try to backpeddle now cause you sound like a retard fine, but realize your called out on it. You really think I "loaded all that shit in there" in 1 day. If you do then pretty much everything you say from now on I will pay no attention too, as you obviously have no clue what the hell you are talking about. How many contracted setups, designs, and installs have you done in your lifetime?

Quote :

"no shit. that's why I asked to see what it looked like now--and I wasn't trying to be an ass--dumbass."

that IS what it looks like now, your a retard to think I took that pic after putting "all that shit in there". Or maybe I should show you this, where you can see how most of the frags started off:



You make it seem like I put ALL the corals in there all at once and snapped a photo. If you had any clue at all you would know that isnt really possible.

Quote :

"Besides a little green slim algae in the bottom left that tank is spotless"

Lol, sorry try again, there is no green slim algae in the tank at all. Maybe your referring to the shadows or something? Or maybe the small bit of brown algae on the sides that I didnt feel like scraping off all the way? My tank is spotless because of the way it is designed and how I care for it. If you dont understand that then sorry. Lets see some shots of your tanks youve designed, and Im not talking about the blurry pics in your galary.

[Edited on September 5, 2006 at 10:50 PM. Reason : asdf]

9/5/2006 10:36:20 PM

Quote :

"that IS what it looks like now,"

Quote :

"lol, that shot is @ 6 months old,"

you are clearly trying to back-peddle, but realize you were called out.

Quote :

"No, what you typed was Day 1, as in Day 1 of starting the tank."

sure, now you're Ms. Cleo.

Quote :

" your a retard to think I took that pic after putting "all that shit in there". "

I'm a retard to think that there are idiots out there that stock a tank full just after it cycles?
Maybe I made a bad assumption about you, but it's not unheard of.

Quote :

"from now on I will pay no attention too, as you obviously have no clue what the hell you are talking about."

I really don't give a damn if you do. I have no interest in discussing reef keeping with tools that worked at Fish World.

9/5/2006 10:55:43 PM

Quote :

""lol, that shot is @ 6 months old,""

did you ever stop to think that "@ 6 months old" IS NOW?

Quote :

"I really don't give a damn if you do. I have no interest in discussing reef keeping with tools that worked at Fish World."

But you feel like you should try to call them out on shit when you have no clue what your talking about and then when you are made to look like a fool you suddenly have no interest? Like I said, if your so knowledgable about reef keeping post some pics of your stuff, and explain your setups. I lay all my stuff out on the site I posted earlier. I welcome criticism of my work, what I dont welcome is idiots like you pulling shit out their ass in an attempt to make yourself look good.

Quote :

"Maybe I made a bad assumption about you"

I have a feeling you make alot of bad assumptions, about alot of things.

9/5/2006 11:06:50 PM

Quote :

"I have a feeling you make alot of bad assumptions, about alot of things."

yeah, I just made another one about you. Cause I just looked at your other tanks and they look like complete shit. LOL. Get real, you're a joke and you clearly don't know shit.

9/5/2006 11:11:37 PM

Quote :

"Cause I just looked at your other tanks and they look like complete shit. LOL. Get real, you're a joke and you clearly don't know shit."

Seriously, you keep talking trash but please oh please post some pics of your work. Im sure everyone else would love to see it as would I. Or do you not have any to back up what your saying? Are you just copy and pasting stuff from ReefCentral.com or something? Show us how a reef tank is supposed to look, as Im sure yours is perfect in every way, it must be, your an expert right?

9/5/2006 11:19:21 PM

Now that you all are done yelling at each other , I was wondering if anybody could let me know where there are some reputable suppliers around here (Raleigh) for live rock and other saltwater supplies. I am new to the area, and need to set up my 12 gallon again after a few years of it being dry. Thanks. You all seem to know what you are talking about.

9/5/2006 11:54:47 PM

Most decent live rock can be found at any of the local fish stores, such as Fish world or fish pros. Its a good idea to try to call and find out when their shipments come in and go in that day. Also, the petco at briar creek sells nice looking live rock also for $7/lbs and their prices on most of their livestock and dry goods is competitive with the LFSs. You might also want to call Chad at reefscience.com and see if he has anything decent.

Quote :

"Now that you all are done yelling at each other "

hehe, I just want the kid to show us his work if hes going to trash other peoples, I dont think thats too much to ask, thats all.

[Edited on September 6, 2006 at 12:10 AM. Reason : asdf]

9/6/2006 12:09:09 AM

thanks.

9/6/2006 12:10:22 AM

be cool if they had glow in the dark sharks.

http://www.brentroad.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=430920

9/6/2006 2:15:53 AM

Drama in the fish tank.

I get my fiji live rock at Down Under for $4.99/lb. If you look around there are generally cheaper prices than $7. And I've been in Petco's...*shudders* I wouldn't get a fish there unless I was desperate.

9/6/2006 7:33:54 AM

^x4.
Dude you had a little 2.5 reef tank for 6 months and all of a sudden you think you are Bob Fenner. AND you just suggested someone to go to PETCO. LOL what the fuck?

Quote :

"Most decent live rock can be found at any of the local fish stores"

most LFS have shitty "live" rock for 7-9/lb. and I quote "live" because those pieces have NO life in them.

Order online or follow^ advice.

[Edited on September 6, 2006 at 8:43 AM. Reason : .]

9/6/2006 8:33:42 AM

The petco fish department at briar creek is run by my ex-roommate, who is also an ex-manager at fish world like me. Have you ever even seen the live rock or fish at that petco? That purple firefish that is in my 2.5 is from petco, for $14, one of the healthist fish I have had. Hell, I'll prolly get alot of my fish there in the future, the fish at the briar creek petco are healthy and eat like champs. I mean, I can go into ANY LFS and see sick, dying, and dead fish and corals. Why do you think theres no guarentee on SW fish and corals? Cause alot of the stuff that comes into the LFS's dies before the customer even sees it. But since its a LFS then they must be better right, and their fish must be better if they charge twice what petco sells them for right? And since petco is a chain then ALL of them have to be the same, right? I can make blanket statements about the horrible experiences people have had ordering live goods online too, that doesnt mean that ALL online vendors are like that.

Quote :

"If you look around there are generally cheaper prices than $7."

Yeah, forgot about down under, last time I was in there he didnt have much in the way of anything. And if you want to get real techincal you can get it cheaper than $5/lbs at most of the LFS on sale days, or just order a 40lbs box from them.

Quote :

"Dude you had a little 2.5 reef tank for 6 months and all of a sudden you think you are Bob Fenner."

Ive had a combined over 500gallons of reef tanks over the past few years. I have also setup, designed, and installed over 50 tanks in the triangle. What have you done? The 2.5 is my latest tank, and its actually the one Im most proud of. Can you do better? Do you have better? I doubt it, or you would have already posted by now. Im mean seriously, SHUT THE FUCK UP and post some pics about your setups. Unless all you have is that 55g in your gallery with some peices of rock, a shitty blue (is that plastic? classy) background and a fish and shrimp in it. WOW, thats SOOOO much better than my tanks. I wouldnt want to admit its mine either while talking so much trash.



Hahaha, I mean, come on. Thats just sad. Do you even have any corals? Have you ever kept any corals before?

Also, you keep talking about Fenner like hes your dad or something. Have you ever even met him? Do you have books signed by him and Mike Paletta with credits in them to Jeff (owner of fish world)and the employees there? Have you gone to an after hours party and got drunk off your ass with Fenner and Paletta while talking about reef tanks all night long at Eric Rue's house who is a custom local tank builder? They are cool guys, and I enjoyed swapping ideas with them.

Why do you bash LFS's and petco anyway? Did you apply for a job and get rejected or something?


[Edited on September 6, 2006 at 10:05 AM. Reason : asdf]

9/6/2006 9:49:03 AM

haha, you crazy kids and your fish.

9/6/2006 9:52:24 AM

Also

Quote :

"And I've been in Petco's...*shudders* I wouldn't get a fish there unless I was desperate."

I could say the same thing about Fish Pros, or Aqua Escapes, or even Down Under when it first started. In fact the owner of Down Under had to go to Fish World and get Jeff to tell him why one of his 75 gallons kept overflowing. I have never bought anything from either Fish Pros or Aqua Escapes, because everytime I go in there all their stuff looks like crap. However, there are people that will swear by them that they are the greatest, its all a matter of perspective. And once you work in the industry for a few years you begin to realize that every single store has its own little cheering squad saying how great it is, and then theres the people that make blanket statements and apply them to ALL stores (internet fanboi's). Then theres the people who realize thats is all about going in and making up your own damn mind about where you want to shop, who you like, and who you recommend and why. You can read books till your blue in the face, they wont compare to years of experience in the SW industry.

9/6/2006 10:47:15 AM

damn you people and your posting about reef tanks...

9/6/2006 11:00:54 AM

i'm gonna be selling a 125G soon if anyone is interested. tank only, no live stock. i have to clean it first though.

9/6/2006 11:38:14 AM

^^ hehe sorry dude, you'll get back into it one day, when you do lemme know, I'll give ya some frags and shit to start ya off with.

and with that Im done with this thread. Talk all the shit you want about me now cl, havent backed any of it up so far. if anyone wants any advice feel free to just PM me, I can see posting is a waste of time with all the "experts" around.

[Edited on September 6, 2006 at 11:43 AM. Reason : asdf]

9/6/2006 11:42:13 AM

Well for what its worth I do appreciate all of your help.

9/6/2006 12:58:02 PM

I don't go to Fish Pros or AquaEscape either. Whose that guy that keeps talking up AE? Everytime I've been out of curiosity there's wither no live stock or the tanks are so crusty and brown you can't actually SEE the live stock. As for Fish Pros, I just think they're over priced and nothing really special. I like Down Under because they have some of the best stock around imo and are always very helpful when I have a question, and really helped me out when my power head took a dive. The people at Fish World always have conflicting advice...went to Isaac's Aquaria lately and they had good stock and really nice guys there, but it's so far away I can't justify it. Oh, and Carolina Pet Supply has random shit from time to time...there's a run down. Oh, and Pet Pad never has enough to mention.

As for Petco, I recently went to the one at Brier Creek and was more impressed by their stock, but they didn't have much there. I usually frequent the one in Wilmington and OMG talk about fish graveyard. They have floating carcasses that they just leave in there for the others to cannibalize, totally a turn off. But their tanks are usually pretty clear...so you can see said rotting carcasses.


Basically it all comes down to personal opinion. I've thoroughly investigated every salt water store winthin a 30 miles radius, and I have my preferences. As you can see, everyone here has theirs as well. Some order online, I personally do not b/c I figure with my luck I'm paying out the ass for an animal that will arrive floating.

TaDa

9/6/2006 1:34:05 PM

i want a 2 gallon salt water tank I'm very jealous, but i don't think i have the time (not to mention the $$ for one)

9/6/2006 1:59:43 PM

my idea is that if you're gonna do it, really do it (like the 265 thing) full size 'wall' form of a tank

9/6/2006 3:27:29 PM