Quote :

"Investigation shows FEMA spent millions on puppet shows, bingo, yoga By Sally Kestin, South Florida Sun-Sentinel , October 8 2006 At the Pinitos Learning Center in Boca Raton, disaster workers dressed as "Windy Biggie" and "Sunny" teach 30 preschoolers a song about how the wind is good, even during a hurricane. "Windy Biggie is our friend. "Windy Biggie is strong wind. "She turns, turns, turns, turns around. "She's knocking things to the ground." This is FEMA tax money at work. It's also paying for Hurricane Bingo, puppet shows, "salsa for seniors," and yoga on the beach. Last year, the Federal Emergency Management Agency awarded Florida $22.6 million for "crisis counseling" for victims of hurricanes Wilma and Katrina. Florida's program, called Project H.O.P.E. -- Helping Our People in Emergencies -- is still in operation with about 450 workers across the state who spend much of their time leading games and performing shows for groups of residents -- regardless of whether they're in crisis or even experienced the storms, the South Florida Sun-Sentinel has found. "

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-hope08oct08,0,3230053.story?coll=sfla-home-headlines


Something to think about when you look at the federal taxes deducted from your next paycheck.

10/9/2006 11:11:24 AM

dont you have a few threads already on the same sort of topic?

lock.

[Edited on October 9, 2006 at 11:32 AM. Reason : .]

10/9/2006 11:30:52 AM

I glanced at his threads he has posted in since the beginning of August, and none stick out about FEMA. Maybe you should do a little bit of work before being a dickhead and calling for a thread lock.

[Edited on October 9, 2006 at 11:35 AM. Reason : a]

10/9/2006 11:35:45 AM

i thought it was obvious that FEMA is horribly mismanaged.

10/9/2006 11:37:28 AM

This kind of shit wouldn't be happening if Bob Page and Walton Simons were in charge of things.

[Edited on October 9, 2006 at 11:47 AM. Reason : blah]

10/9/2006 11:47:09 AM

^^^maybe not FEMA, but every one of his threads is just him bitching about taxes

10/9/2006 12:03:36 PM

Wow, I didn't realize we had an official "Taxes" thread where all we discuss is that.

10/9/2006 12:04:58 PM

maybe we should. then again, people who sit around complaining about taxes are just as annoying as the taxes themselves.

[Edited on October 9, 2006 at 12:07 PM. Reason : .]

10/9/2006 12:05:17 PM

Worse is the guy complaining about the people complaining about taxes.

10/9/2006 12:25:04 PM

^ recursion rocks!!!

To quote the hollow men: "I think I see where this is going." "Chicago?" "No, the conversation."

10/9/2006 12:33:03 PM

Hey, I'm not doing any complaining here, just observing.

10/9/2006 12:37:35 PM

Since I know that I am going to be in the vast minority here I am going to go ahead and toss this out there. I see no problems with teaching children that hurricanes are an intagrel part of our global weather. Educating them as to the functionality of such storms will likely prevent them from extrapolating nonsensical explanations such as hurricanes being some kind of tool from "God". Educated children will also be more likely to know how to properly conduct themselves in the event of a hurricane. Lastly I would like to think that having an understanding of the importance of hurricanes would lead them away from the absurd idea that it is the right and duty of humans to try and control the weather just because they don't like having their houses and trees blown over.

10/9/2006 2:16:21 PM

10/9/2006 4:17:55 PM

^^i hope he's posting this not b/c he doesnt like disaster education being payed for w/ taxes, but because he's upset that .0001% of his paycheck went to buy a puppet.

10/9/2006 10:56:54 PM

Quote :

"every one of his threads is just him bitching about taxes"

Not quite true, but I will admit that gov't waste is a pet peeve of mine. Often when someone suggests cutting spending, politicians threaten to start with police or fire staffing. They hardly ever threaten to start cutting funding for puppet shows and toilet paper contests.

Quote :

"I see no problems with teaching children that hurricanes are an intagrel part of our global weather."

The money was supposed to be spent on aiding actual hurricane victims, not teaching kids why hurricanes are a part of the global weather system. Playing "Hurricane Bingo" with semi-invalids is a ridiculous waste of tax money. Using unqualified people to do mental health counselling is dangerous.

Politicians spent our hard-earned money on this H.O.P.E. thing in order to make themselves look good. Like many gov't feel-good projects, it turned out to be another useless, make-work program.

The "fiscally responsible" GOP created this embarassment and should be ashamed of themselves.

10/10/2006 1:36:58 AM

ok, but emergency education is still important and i have no problem with funding that. this program might not do that directly, but, well, that should be what it does, and if it's best to make it fund for kids to get them to learn, then so be it. bert the turtle sure stuck with kids of the 50's when it came to bomb drills.

10/10/2006 1:41:02 AM

Quote :

"maybe we should. then again, people who sit around complaining about taxes are just as annoying as the taxes themselves"

oh hell no

our system and levels of taxation is a damned atrocity.

10/10/2006 1:47:35 AM

Quote :

"The money was supposed to be spent on aiding actual hurricane victims, not teaching kids why hurricanes are a part of the global weather system."

Do you not see how education at an early age could help keep a certain percentage of them from being future hurricane victims?

10/10/2006 2:44:13 AM

^
Sure I see the value, but it shouldn't be funded with federal tax money. When pressed, politicians cry that there's nothing to cut, everything is critical. The arrogance of wasting even a penny of my hard-earned fed tax money on this stuff is revolting.

10/10/2006 12:23:41 PM

i would think that disaster education might fit in under providing for the common welfare (ie: helping protect in time of disaster, to hopefully prevent another katrina). you cant be protected from weather, so its necessary to know what to do in times of danger. the only argument you seem to have against this is "i dont like taxes and i dont think the founding fathers would either", which happens to be the Libertarian Party's argument against just about anything sans the military. if you can prove this is unconstitutional, to provide disaster education, then by all means, do so. aside from that, i really dont see how this is a problem.

[Edited on October 10, 2006 at 12:38 PM. Reason : .]

10/10/2006 12:37:10 PM

OK, I understand your point to be that disaster education is the responsibility of the federal gov't becasue it falls under the general welfare clause of the Constitution..and your challenge is to prove that it is unconstitutional.

The preamble to the Constitution states:

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

The preamble is not a delegation of power to the federal government. It is simply a stated purpose. The rest of the Constitution lays out specifically what the gov't can do to achieve those purposes. The Preamble was never intended to be used as a carte blanche ticket to spend whatever money you want on anything you feel contributes to the General Welfare. The goal wasn't to allow gov't to do anything it wanted. If that was the case, there wouldn't have been a need to add the rest of the clauses in the Constitution.

James Madison, the father of our Constitution had these to say..

"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions." - James Madison, Letter to Edmund Pendleton, January 21, 1792 _Madison_ 1865, I, page 546

"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constitutents." - James Madison, regarding an appropriations bill for French refugees, 1794

"With respect to the words general welfare, I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." - James Madison, Letter to James Robertson, April 20, 1831 _Madison_ 1865, IV, pages 171-172


Section 8 lays out the 18 things that the federal Congress is allowed to do. Clause 1 allows them to provide for the common defence and general welfare of the United States.

This means the country as a whole, not any of the varied subgroups of citizens wishing for special privileges. Hurricane victims are one of those sub-groups. It is important to remember that the "general welfare" has to do with the states, not the people who live in the states.

Nowhere in the Constitution is there any permission for Congress to spend fed tax money on education or grief counselling. It's just not there, nor should it be.

I will admit that it would've been better if the Founders had been more clear in their writing. But the Constitution was put together by committee, and it reflects that in its maddening lack of specificity in different parts. It is ultimatelty up to us, the voters, to keep a tight reign on the politicians we allow to write law over us. Politicians are, afterall, merely people..people with flaws. The key is to not allow them too much control over us. Would you agree?


"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated." - Thomas Jefferson

10/10/2006 2:23:44 PM

and of course, as always, the constitution is opened to interpretation within the vague bounds it provides. pragmatism should not take a backseat to ideology. should the federal government be expected to promote the common welfare to this extent? it's a nice idea, but the constitution also leaves it open to allow the state governments to provide this. a different body provides this to promote the common welfare, one which you still pay taxes to. if you want to argue whether the federal or state gov. should provide this, by all means, do so. your initial argument simply looks like Libertarian Party talking points (complaining that there should be no taxes, no government) either way, your money goes to help promote the common good, regardless of status.

i'm all for state governments doing everything in their power to promote the common welfare, moreso than the federal government. administration and government is best done at the more basic levels. decentralization of power is good, as long as you still try to promote that common welfare, which is best dealt with more personally while being guaranteed to citizens of a specific zone.

[Edited on October 10, 2006 at 2:48 PM. Reason : .]

10/10/2006 2:46:06 PM

Quote :

"but the constitution also leaves it open to allow the state governments to provide this"

Yes I agree with you here. I only claim that the funding for these types of things should not come from federal taxes. Federal programs are pandora's boxes of unintended consequences and should be held to a minimum.

Even though I hold this H.O.P.E. program suspect, I think we are in basic agreement that it's good to help people. We may differ a little on how much of that help comes from the gov't and how much comes from the private sector.

I'm not saying there should be no gov't or no taxes. I'm just very cynical about about the power and control our gov't has over us. I prefer smaller gov't. and lower taxes than we have today. In avoiding responsibility, we have given too much power to our politicians.

10/10/2006 4:06:45 PM

the only way to guarantee access to disaster relief and education is through public programs, which will be taxpayer funded. I would think this would be one of the most important programs to provide for constituents, especially in florida.

10/10/2006 4:40:08 PM

Quote :

"constituents, especially in florida. "

Quote :

"Federal Emergency Management Agency"

10/10/2006 10:39:34 PM

ok? it's provided to anyone who needs it, but it's of especially important interest to people who live in disaster areas, such as florida. now make your post bitching about federal taxes, it's all you (and so many others in here) ever contribute. important? of course, but its getting to be ad-nauseum.

10/10/2006 10:51:00 PM

i'm not really arguing one way or the other about how much disaster relief and education is the federal gov's responsibility

i will say that FEMA seems to be a financial mismanagement nightmare.


i was just pointing out that you're talking about how it's an important program to provide for FL constituents

but why isn't FL doing it instead of FEMA?

why should Wyoming be footing the bill? they don't have hurricanes...and FL makes a shit ton of money off of tourism from its beaches. shouldn't they foot the bill for the downside of living at the beach? hell, FL doesn't even have state income tax (great for me--i'm a FL resident...but I'm speaking strictly in terms of what's right and fair).

10/10/2006 11:02:06 PM