this thread is just for fun and discussion. i'm not a communist and i do not support communist ray jeems.

Quote :

"communism could work if you had several base yaers of capitalism sucess and then switched. but most nations switch to communism while they are down so it never works. if usa switched to communism today, it would work."

personally, i think we could make any government work. sure things wouldnt be as good as they are now but it would work and work well

[Edited on October 16, 2006 at 3:08 PM. Reason : unlike any other]

10/16/2006 3:02:59 PM

Would gravity stop working if we pretended it didn't?

10/16/2006 3:05:14 PM

jesus christ. lock

10/16/2006 3:05:27 PM

LOCK LOCK LOCK LOCK

10/16/2006 3:06:52 PM

if you switched to being an american, would it make you any smarter?

I submit that it would not, and.....

IBTL

10/16/2006 3:09:07 PM

no. this has been tried. no this will not work.

communism will not work. how many more examples do you need?


NO


NO


NO

10/16/2006 3:09:17 PM

^what? communism has been tried in the us already? in light in me...

and where has communism been tried in any already well established nation?


us is damn near perfect

[Edited on October 16, 2006 at 3:13 PM. Reason : communism works perfectly in a perfect world. the closer to perfect the better it will work. ]

10/16/2006 3:12:08 PM

Quote :

"in light in me... "

is this for real??....please tell me its not....please oh please

10/16/2006 3:14:26 PM

Quote :

"Would gravity stop working if we pretended it didn't?"

hahahahahahah

10/16/2006 3:15:23 PM

Quote :

"in light in me..."

i meant communism has been tried. It's failed and brought down countless millions with it. And you really want to try it again?

First of all "in light in" me and tell me why you would risk a perfectly functioning capitalistic system for something that has been proven nonfunctional in almost every sense of the word?

10/16/2006 3:15:38 PM

its made to get rid of poverty and make everybody middle calls but in the other countries it was established while the nation was down so everybody ended up poor. if we did it today there is so much wealth at the top that it could work

everybody could essentially make about 40k per year and there would be so many resources and will power left over to spend on better housing and collectivizing and government projects. sure, things wouldnt be nearly as good as they are without the incentives of capitalism but there would be very little poverty.


im not saying we should do it, im just saying rich countries is where it could work but it hass only beed tried in countries that are in crisis so it looks like it cant work.


general american life under communism would be like college life.

[Edited on October 16, 2006 at 3:23 PM. Reason : really]

10/16/2006 3:22:43 PM

Quote :

"its made to get rid of poverty and make everybody middle calls but in the other countries it was established while the nation was down so everybody ended up poor."

go read an economics text book. Then go read a history one. When you're finished with that, read another economics text book.

The reason communism fails is that it gives no incentive to work harder. When one works for himself or for his own wellbeing, a natural incentive is created and gives motive to work harder and make more.

When you're done reading those text books, kill yourself.

10/16/2006 3:25:05 PM

^how about just go read my post.

i said that the incentive is why capitalism is better but it doesnt just make communism not work. sure its inferior to the best form but that doesnt mean it doesnt work.

10/16/2006 3:27:37 PM

Actually just kill yourself first.

10/16/2006 3:29:12 PM

hahaha...


pepperoni pizza is better than refried liver, but it doesn't mean that refried liver won't nourish you.

10/16/2006 3:32:23 PM

LOCK

10/16/2006 3:33:01 PM

Quote :

"The reason communism fails is that it gives no incentive to work harder."

Yes indeed Brian, but it goes even further than that. Communism also gives an incentive to work LESS, rather than just not incentivizing you to work harder.

You get to leach off the work of others. The lower standard of living you receive for not working hard gets divided by the population rather than just by 1 (as in a 100% capitalist country with no safety nets). The same is true for the higher standard of living associated with working harder.

10/16/2006 3:34:07 PM

^ the incentive to work might actually come from the fear to not die. As with all communist regimes history has had, all of them have been authoritarian. Perhaps that's where they try to get their incentive.



NEW THREAD


who thinks hcnguyen should go way and/or kill self?

10/16/2006 3:37:31 PM

you're belief is errored and completely ignores many factors. Lemme splain

1) You assume that there won't be corruption or misuse of power. In communism 1 corrupt person can cause a HUUUUGE ripple effect and the poorest get the worst. Democracy works in a way that 1 man can't cause that many issues, it takes many to screw many.

2) You assume that every community will function and share their resources because they are told to. This includes setting prices etc. That makes the economy stagnant and non profitable. The people that set these prices hold huge sway on the market and are often subject to corruption.

3) You assume that people WANT to be equal. If i bust my ass at my job, pull good numbers and do all the extras... I make the same as bill davis who didn't try to do shit. He did just good enough. And you know what? He makes the same as me. Fuck that shit. He can work in the god damn quickie mart for all I care.

4) Every single nation that has tried communism has failed. It's a good concept but it's base is weak. Democracy may seem flawed but no matter who you are, no matter where you come from you can rise to the top. In the real world Communism is more of a dictatorship than anything just with lots of dictators.

10/16/2006 3:43:09 PM

he also assumes he's thought provoking.

10/16/2006 3:51:47 PM

DONT EVEN READ WHAT THIS CLOWN POSTS

AND FOR DAMN SURE

DONT ENTERTAIN A THOUGHT OUT REPLY

10/16/2006 3:52:25 PM

I imagine the short term consequences of the US moving to communism would be fairly similar to Russia's immediate move to capitalism. The short term would be chaotic, giving rise to black markets, organized crime, etc. If we somehow successfully made the shift to communism (we would probably first end up turning to a strong leader that would lead us back towards some sort of capitalism), then society would likely stabilize at a lower overall standard of living.



Socialism could probably be phased in in a considerably less chaotic fashion.

10/16/2006 3:53:14 PM

Quote :

"general american life under communism would be like college life"

if you go to state, i renounce my degree.

10/16/2006 3:53:22 PM

if you go to state, i renounce my degree.





no we all don't fucking go to nc state anymore if this ass clown does too.

10/16/2006 4:00:38 PM

Quote :

"its made to get rid of poverty and make everybody middle calls but in the other countries it was established while the nation was down so everybody ended up poor. if we did it today there is so much wealth at the top that it could work everybody could essentially make about 40k per year and there would be so many resources and will power left over to spend on better housing and collectivizing and government projects.[b] sure, things [b]wouldnt be nearly as good as they are without the incentives of capitalism but there would be very little poverty. im not saying we should do it, im just saying rich countries is where it could work but it hass only beed tried in countries that are in crisis so it looks like it cant work. general american life under communism would be like college life."

wait, is this supposed to be making a case for communism?

10/16/2006 4:19:59 PM

im leaving some bad things out but im also leaving out some of the advangtages. production of everything would be much cheaper because you could just mass produce everythign the same. every house could be cookie cut with the same cutter. making 200million ford focus' would be very cheap and it wouldnt matter if people slacked off building them because they would be so easy and cheap to make.

in a perfect communism everything is the same. that could save about 40% off the production of all goods.

and even though its communism the government could still give personal incentives to discover new things and make stuff better. prizes so to speak.

and it could also easily punish the unproductive. and incentive to not work less would be fear like someone mentioned.

10/16/2006 4:34:20 PM

Quote :

"i meant communism has been tried"

Depends on what kind of communism you're talking about. There's a lot of different takes on the idea. Marxist communism hasn't been tried anywhere.

Quote :

"tell me why you would risk a perfectly functioning capitalistic system"

Perfectly functioning? What kind of economics major are you?

Quote :

"The reason communism fails is that it gives no incentive to work harder."

This problem can be addressed by psychological means. By slowly reconditioning man we can solve the fundemental problem of economics by elminating wants leaving us only with needs, which are easy to calculate. Then the communist model works very efficiently.

10/16/2006 4:36:04 PM

that would suck so much donkey dick it's not even funny.

Quote :

" By slowly reconditioning man we can solve the fundemental problem of economics by elminating wants leaving us only with needs"

i don't think it would ever work

and what's the point of having a bunch of people confined to a boring, vanilla, middle of the road existance?

[Edited on October 16, 2006 at 4:38 PM. Reason : asdfasd]

10/16/2006 4:36:04 PM

Quote :

"and what's the point of having a bunch of people confined to a boring, vanilla, middle of the road existance?"

To advance.

10/16/2006 4:39:07 PM

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Quote :

"and even though its communism the government could still give personal incentives to discover new things and make stuff better. prizes so to speak."

give incentives to discover? Why discover when discovery is obviously not needed when everyone has a ranch style house and a ford focus? Prizes? Well wait do you know, we have those built right into this system of capitalism with ZERO government insight. Work hard, make more. I mean, this isn't some contrived human idea... it's natural law. That's why it requires NO GOVERNMENT OVERSIGHT (which is expensive) to administer.

Little pieces here and there have gov't oversight, but as a rule, the system just works. Invisible hand.

10/16/2006 4:41:09 PM

what sort of advancement are we talking, here?

10/16/2006 4:41:18 PM

^^all while tens of millions live in harsh poverty

10/16/2006 4:43:50 PM

The same kind that comes with any other technological advance. We would be able to make more out of less.

10/16/2006 4:44:29 PM

^^ wait? tens of millions in the us live in poverty?



check your stats.

10/16/2006 4:46:40 PM

according to the us census bure row 37 million were under the "poverty line" in 2005. now i dont know if there has been some sort of mass bulling going on to bring 28 million out of poverty since 2005 but something tells me tens of millions is still safe to say.

and it could be larger than what the gov actually tells you.

10/16/2006 4:55:40 PM

Quote :

"DONT EVEN READ WHAT THIS CLOWN POSTS AND FOR DAMN SURE DONT ENTERTAIN A THOUGHT OUT REPLY"

and kris just give it up already. You're not cool just cause you walk around with a che guevara shirt and babble on about the proletariat. pretty soon you'll realize that you nothing but a little momma's boy, white middle class suburbanite and that you have never been to countries that were RUNIED by communism. much less know the devastation first hand or even heard first hand accounts. quit fucking ignoring everything bad it has brought because you think you can re-wire human nature to only want what we need. So just give up your idealistic view of human nature and the world. IT WILL NOT WORK. PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION.

[Edited on October 16, 2006 at 4:59 PM. Reason : ^and you are the biggest fucking idiot alive or a good troll.]

The Quintessential room of a white suburban kid [wannabe communist?] just needs a sickle and hammer on the wall then you'll really be a true communist!!!

Quote :

"elminating wants leaving us only with needs, which are easy to calculate. "

[Edited on October 16, 2006 at 5:09 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on October 16, 2006 at 5:10 PM. Reason : .HOORAY MARX]

10/16/2006 4:58:45 PM

No way it could ever work. Communism has been implemented in just about every type of society worldwide, and capitalism has outpaced it in every measurable quantifier of productivity every time.

10/16/2006 5:07:52 PM

Quote :

"pretty soon you'll realize that you nothing but a little momma's boy, white middle class suburbanite and that you have never been to countries that were RUNIED by communism"

My parents are communist, I have been to cuba and venezula.

Quote :

"quit fucking ignoring everything bad it has brought"

Blaming those things on communism is like blaming the holocaust on capitalism.

Quote :

"So just give up your idealistic view of human nature and the world."

Mine is anything but idealistic. On the contrary I'd say it is as pragmatic as one could be.

Quote :

"The Quintessential room of a white suburban kid [wannabe communist?] just needs a sickle and hammer on the wall then you'll really be a true communist!!!"

You can't even understand what I believe.

Quote :

"Communism has been implemented in just about every type of society worldwide"

What kind of communism?

10/16/2006 5:14:58 PM

Quote :

"This problem can be addressed by psychological means. By slowly reconditioning man we can solve the fundemental problem of economics by elminating wants leaving us only with needs, which are easy to calculate. Then the communist model works very efficiently. "

Kris, if this is seriously a suggestion, and not some kind of sick joke, I misjudged you as being rational, if misguided.

You can't eliminate the problem of scarcity by conditioning us to eliminate wants. Besides the practical problem of brainwashing people to completely disregard their most innate tendencies, you'd need a group of people that actually didn't have wants to brainwash them.

True Marxism hasn't been tried in the same sense that true capitalism hasn't been tried. The social theory of Marx is completely different that its economic theory. The economic theory is flawed because it overlooks incentives and the fundamental selfishness of individuals. Now, I guess if you can stop ALL people from being selfish in EVERY case, then you can perhaps shape a form of government out of it. Unfortunately for communism (or fortunately for humanity, if you will) you can only do it in two ways. The threat of force (modern Communism) or the use of some manipulation that fundamentally changes the human mind (1984).

Good luck!

10/16/2006 5:16:47 PM

Quote :

"Besides the practical problem of brainwashing people to completely disregard their most innate tendencies, you'd need a group of people that actually didn't have wants to brainwash them."

This isn't like a stick them in the box and press the button kind of scifi thing. This is a long process of policy changes that slowly and eventually eliminate want.

Quote :

"True Marxism hasn't been tried in the same sense that true capitalism hasn't been tried."

Places like the early western united states, or certain parts of modern day africa exist in a state similar. I'd say my favorite example of capitalism is under pinocet

Quote :

"The economic theory is flawed because it overlooks incentives and the fundamental selfishness of individuals."

No, it looks beyond that. Marx never focused strongly on the economic aspects in any of his writings, the closest being the manuscripts. Marx was more of a philosopher, not a real macroeconomist like Keynes or such. Communism is more of an idea like democracy, rather than a specific economic theory like Keynesian economics.

Quote :

"he threat of force (modern Communism) or the use of some manipulation that fundamentally changes the human mind (1984)."

You are manipulated and your mind is changed everyday. This is how humans function. You assume I'm talking about some Clockwork Orange kind of thing here, I'm not. The same way that americans became so much more wantfull and consuming can be used to change us to the opposite.

10/16/2006 5:33:59 PM

Quote :

"My parents are communist, I have been to cuba and venezula."

oh really? how's that working out for ya? do they work on a collective farm? how can you afford all those fancy gadgets and go to college your parents can't make much on the colletive.
where do they live now? America? big surprise there.
I just love the "communist" that think they are communist just cause they read a book and don't really live in a communist state.

Quote :

"Blaming those things on communism is like blaming the holocaust on capitalism."

maybe but the problem of communism is that it put's all the power in a dicatorship which WILL be abused, has it ever not?

How many liberators really want to be dictators?-J.Biafra

which reminds me of another great quote from him that applies to you
"I'm cleansed of the system."
('Cept when my amp needs electric power)

10/16/2006 5:37:16 PM

Wow, where should I start?

Quote :

"Marx never focused strongly on the economic aspects in any of his writings, the closest being the manuscripts. Marx was more of a philosopher, not a real macroeconomist like Keynes or such. Communism is more of an idea like democracy, rather than a specific economic theory like Keynesian economics. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism#Marxian_political_economy

Quote :

". In his book Capital, Marx argues that the capitalist mode of production is distinguished by how the owners of capital extract this surplus from workers—all prior societies had extracted surplus labor, but capitalism was new in doing so via the sale-value of produced commodities"

If he wasn't talking about economics, the title Capital seems kind of odd.

Quote :

"This is a long process of policy changes that slowly and eventually eliminate want. "

And I attest that you're chasing an impossible (and undesirable) dream. It is a fundamental, Darwinian function of human beings to be selfish and to want. You may as well tell me that a slow process of policy and propaganda will eliminate my need of oxygen.

And the worst part of your idea is that you believe it would be desirable not to have wants. I mean, I guess you'd never be disappointed if you didn't have wants, but you are in a sad state of being if you think it would be desirable not to have wants.

___
And that totally overlooks the adorable irony in the idea that you
"Want not to want"

[Edited on October 16, 2006 at 5:42 PM. Reason : .]

10/16/2006 5:40:28 PM

Quote :

"oh really? how's that working out for ya? do they work on a collective farm? how can you afford all those fancy gadgets and go to college your parents can't make much on the colletive."

Haha. Let's say you believed in "Fairtax", now in order to believe in this are you required to no longer pay federal income tax?

I believe human beings will eventually function much better in a state of communism, I certainly don't believe we should switch right now, and even more, it wouldn't work unless everyone did it.
You logic is painful to listen to.

Quote :

"maybe but the problem of communism is that it put's all the power in a dicatorship"

Communism is an economic system, it does not neccesitate any political system. Hugo Chavez, for instance, was democratically elected.

10/16/2006 5:43:21 PM

Quote :

"If he wasn't talking about economics, the title Capital seems kind of odd."

You'll notice what you've quoted, and really anything you read from marx is extremely philosophical.

Quote :

"It is a fundamental, Darwinian function of human beings to be selfish and to want."

Why? It seems anything we do is an effect to some cause, could we not then just change the cause to better suit us as a species?

Quote :

"And the worst part of your idea is that you believe it would be desirable not to have wants."

Any desire you have is conditioned, so what value is it? One thing we can see the human race doing throughout time is becoming more efficent, this is why I believe we will become communist.
I don't "want" communism, it'll happen regardless of what any of us want or do.

10/16/2006 5:48:15 PM

Quote :

"Communism is an economic system, it does not neccesitate any political system. "

don't play semantics here. the communist as a political party is what drives the society from capitalism to communism-- it won't just happen on it's own. which is where it gets stuck with all the power consolidated in a one-party state that's just human nature and you can't change it.

but you never answered my question. How do your parents like working on a collective? Oh, I see you mean the kind of "communist" that just reads books. Sure, communism is fun when you read about it. But ask the Romanians, or the Latvians, or the east germans (shall I continue?) how they feel about it.

Now OFF TO THE GULAG WITH YOU. and take hcnguyen with you, plz.


[Edited on October 16, 2006 at 6:32 PM. Reason : .]

10/16/2006 6:20:37 PM

Here's a funny little piece
Warning: words below, but it's funny and worth it.

Quote :

" Che Guevara should be scorned — not worn By Ryan Clancy USATODAY.com Che Guevara is everywhere these days. Not literally. He is, after all, dead. But 38 years after meeting his demise in the Bolivian jungle, the communist revolutionary has re-emerged as a pop culture icon. In dorm rooms, on the runways of Paris and on merchandising kitsch, the legendary Alberto Korda image of a beret-clad Guevara is the epitome of cool. Don't be surprised if during tonight's trick-or-treating, Che shows up among the goblins. He's that ubiquitous. Hollywood has taken notice, too. Last year's indie hit The Motorcycle Diaries, which traced Che's youthful wanderlust trip across South America, is soon to be followed by a major studio production featuring Benicio Del Toro. Che's rock star status will probably be fleeting. Just ask Motley Crüe. But long after Jay-Z stops rapping, "I'm like Che Guevara with bling on," Che will retain the exalted position he has held since the Vietnam War as a symbol of peace and justice. And that is a problem. Che demanded worldwide revolution, even if it meant a stream of death and misery. He said the utopia that could be built on the ashes of the old world would make the suffering worthwhile. That's why he advocated a nuclear exchange during the Cuban missile crisis. In fact, if you read through Che's speeches, with his constant refrain of glorious martyrdom, they're remarkably similar to another well-known "revolutionary" — the tall, bearded one holed up somewhere on the Afghanistan-Pakistan border. Che hated the United States and the global free market system that sustained it. Just ask him. "Let us sum up our hopes for victory: total destruction of imperialism by eliminating its firmest bulwark, the oppression exercised by the United States of America." If Che's world vision had prevailed, it's safe to say that Apple founder Steve Jobs would have never brought us the iPod. After all, it's tough to innovate when you're stuck behind a donkey farming turnips for the proletariat. For those who sell Che merchandise, this history is beside the point. Yakov Grinberg, a 20-year-old clerk at Freaks, a shop in Manhattan's trendy East Village, freely concedes: "Most of these people obviously have no idea what they're wearing." Che isn't the only erstwhile commie scoring cool points either. Chairman Mao and the Soviet hammer-and-sickle are showing up on hipster gear as well. Who knew that bread lines were the new black? Against this backdrop of ignorance, it's not surprising that Che, as a populist symbol of uncompromising defiance who stood up for the poor and oppressed, transcends the real Che — the one who said judicial review for executions was an "archaic bourgeoisie detail." What then are we to make of Che Guevara? Che apologists insist he fought "for the people." But when it came to the basics of helping "the people," such as not killing them, he was less than stellar. Most historians agree upon one fact, however, that can shape our understanding of Che. He was a loser. Big time. I'm talking McGovern in '72, Saddam in '91 and the Chicago Cubs every year since '08. Che fomented unrest in Argentina, Bolivia, the Dominican Republic, Nicaragua, Haiti, Panama and the African Congo, and every expedition was an abject failure. His single enduring political achievement, Cuba, is not even threatening enough to make the Axis of Evil. So, instead of Che being held up as a beacon of peace and justice, let us hereafter revel in his futility. He'll be an exemplar of the idea that hard work does not always pay off. In fact, I already have a new shirt in mind. Take the same iconic picture of Che and just add the heading , "I tried to conquer the evil Yankee imperialists and all I got was this stupid T-shirt.""

10/16/2006 6:29:56 PM

Quote :

"the communist as a political party is what drives the society from capitalism to communism"

But it could be through democracy, dictatorship, or any other political means. Economic changes come about through political means.

Quote :

"I see you mean the kind of "communist" that just reads books."

You don't have to work on a commune to be a communist in the same way that you don't have to be in heaven to be a christian.

Quote :

"Here's a funny little piece Warning: words below, but it's funny and worth it."

You should watch the motorcycle diaries rather than reading some op-ed piece by some wannabe journalist. You might also note that I don't own any che memorabilia.

10/16/2006 7:09:25 PM

No.

10/16/2006 7:15:39 PM

Kris must have done a report on Communism, and enjoys trolling the group with the knowledge he gained.

10/16/2006 7:16:10 PM

I've been saying the same thing for 5 or so years now. I even had a rather in depth thread on it, but it has since been deleted. But since you've pointed it out, I have done a good bit of research on it, although I haven't really read much more marx in the past 4 or 5 years.

10/16/2006 7:20:11 PM