http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20646437-601,00.html

Quote :

"THE nation's most senior Muslim cleric has blamed immodestly dressed women who don't wear Islamic headdress for being preyed on by men and likened them to abandoned "meat" that attracts voracious animals. In a Ramadan sermon that has outraged Muslim women leaders, Sydney-based Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali also alluded to the infamous Sydney gang rapes, suggesting the attackers were not entirely to blame. While not specifically referring to the rapes, brutal attacks on four women for which a group of young Lebanese men received long jail sentences, Sheik Hilali said there were women who "sway suggestively" and wore make-up and immodest dress ... "and then you get a judge without mercy (rahma) and gives you 65 years". "But the problem, but the problem all began with who?" he asked. The leader of the 2000 rapes in Sydney's southwest, Bilal Skaf, a Muslim, was initially sentenced to 55 years' jail, but later had the sentence reduced on appeal. In the religious address on adultery to about 500 worshippers in Sydney last month, Sheik Hilali said: "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat? "The uncovered meat is the problem." The sheik then said: "If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred." He said women were "weapons" used by "Satan" to control men. "It is said in the state of zina (adultery), the responsibility falls 90 per cent of the time on the woman. Why? Because she possesses the weapon of enticement (igraa)." Muslim community leaders were yesterday outraged and offended by Sheik Hilali's remarks, insisting the cleric was no longer worthy of his title as Australia's mufti. Young Muslim adviser Iktimal Hage-Ali - who does not wear a hijab - said the Islamic headdress was not a "tool" worn to prevent rape and sexual harassment. "It's a symbol that readily identifies you as being Muslim, but just because you don't wear the headscarf doesn't mean that you're considered fresh meat for sale," the former member of John Howard's Muslim advisory board told The Australian. "The onus should not be on the female to not attract attention, it should be on males to learn how to control themselves." Australia's most prominent female Muslim leader, Aziza Abdel-Halim, said the hijab did not "detract or add to a person's moral standards", while Islamic Council of Victoria spokesman Waleed Ali said it was "ignorant and naive" for anyone to believe that a hijab could stop sexual assault. "Anyone who is foolish enough to believe that there is a relationship between rape or unwelcome sexual interference and the failure to wear a hijab, clearly has no understanding of the nature of sexual crime," he said. Ms Hage-Ali said she was "disgusted and offended" by Shiek Hilali's comments. "I find it very offensive that a man who considers himself as a mufti, a leader of Australia's Muslims, can give comment that lacks intelligence and common sense." Yesterday, the mufti defended the sermon about "adultery and theft", a recorded copy of which has been obtained and translated by The Australian. Sheik Hilali said he only meant to refer to prostitutes as "meat" and not any scantily dressed woman with no hijab, despite him not mentioning the word prostitute during the 17-minute talk. He told The Australian the message he intended to convey was: "If a woman who shows herself off, she is to blame ... but a man should be able to control himself". He said if a woman is "covered and respectful" she "demands respect from a man". "But when she is cheap, she throws herself at the man and cheapens herself." Sheik Hilali also insisted his references to the Sydney gang rapes were to illustrate that Skaf was guilty and worthy of receiving such a harsh sentence. Waleed Ali said Sheik Hilali was "normalising immoral sexual behaviour" by comparing women to meat and men to animals and entirely blaming women for being victims. "It's basically saying that the immoral response of men to women who are not fully covered is as natural and as inevitable as the response of an animal tempted by food," he said. "But (unlike animals) men are people who have moral responsibilities and the capability in engaging in moral action." Revelation of the mufti's comments comes after he criticised Mr Howard last month in The Australian for saying a minority of migrant men mistreated their women. Sheik Hilali said such a minority was found in all faiths. "Those who don't respect their women are not true Muslims." "There's a small percentage found among all religions, but we don't recognise ours as Muslims." Aziza Abdel-Halim said Sheik Hilali's remarks during Ramadan were inaccurate and upsetting to the Muslim community. "They are below and beyond any comment (and) do not deserve any consideration." "

[Edited on October 27, 2006 at 3:03 PM. Reason : .]

10/27/2006 3:03:09 PM

Quote :

"He said women were "weapons" used by "Satan" to control men"

wow

10/27/2006 3:10:07 PM

Oh come on. They aren't Christians, free pass.

10/27/2006 3:21:13 PM

NO ONE in the US has blamed the woman for sex attacks before. please.

[Edited on October 27, 2006 at 3:26 PM. Reason : .]

10/27/2006 3:22:45 PM

Quote :

"While not specifically referring to the rapes, brutal attacks on four women for which a group of young Lebanese men received long jail sentences, Sheik Hilali said there were women who "sway suggestively" and wore make-up and immodest dress ... "and then you get a judge without mercy (rahma) and gives you 65 years". "

where are the fucking skinheads when you need them....

10/27/2006 3:23:30 PM

Quote :

"NO ONE in the US has blamed the woman for sex attacks before. please. "

It has been. It was coupled with buttloads of rage though.

Also, most of the "blaming" in the U.S. is more of a "She should have known better than be out by herself late at night" not a "This guy gets a free pass because her tramp stamp was showing" kinda thing.

10/27/2006 3:36:04 PM

10/27/2006 3:38:37 PM

yeah in the US its usually where the female wears some revealing outfit and maybe goes home with the guy and then has second thoughts or something

in this case, it sounds like she might've been showing off a little (god forbid) wrist or ankle

10/27/2006 3:41:50 PM

What gets me is that it was in Australia and the rapes were commited by Lebanese men.

Fucking camel shits bringing their filth into an otherwise fine country.

[Edited on October 27, 2006 at 3:50 PM. Reason : .]

10/27/2006 3:48:37 PM

^Oh my god STFU. That is the dumbest shit in the soap box today. And there's a lot of fucked up shit in here today.

Dammit I can't stand racists/nationalists.

10/27/2006 3:56:38 PM

^you STFU. I'll say what the fuck I want to say bitch.

Quote :

"Dammit I can't stand racists/nationalists."

gayest post ever.

[Edited on October 27, 2006 at 3:58 PM. Reason : .]

10/27/2006 3:57:55 PM

It's nice to know this thread was made out of concern for women's rights in the Muslim world.

And not fucking racism.

10/27/2006 4:02:44 PM

bttt

10/27/2006 4:05:56 PM

i really dont like people who think like this.

this includes muslims and bill

10/27/2006 4:09:42 PM

Damn this shit. Boonedocks, you're absolutely right and I cannot fucking stand it. Like a half hour ago I just posted something that would be relevant here in the Lesbian, Bi, Gay, Trans Center thread.

10/27/2006 4:10:39 PM

yawn...

10/27/2006 4:24:29 PM

This is pretty standard behavior in the international Muslim community.

Let's not kid ourselves here.

10/27/2006 7:43:27 PM

I know you're joking, but I would like to know how often this kind of thing goes down. I mean, under the Islamic law a woman has to produce 3 witnesses to prove she was raped. Who the hell has three people watch you get raped?

I don't think its reflective of all muslims, but I do think treating women as less than equal seems to be a general trend in Islamic societies.

10/27/2006 7:47:07 PM

^I'm actually not joking. I've got family that lived in Tehran for a couple dozen years, and it was ridiculous. And that's a capital city! Not some random village.

10/27/2006 8:38:39 PM

Quote :

"Quote : "He said women were "weapons" used by "Satan" to control men""

well, this part is right

10/27/2006 9:01:18 PM

calm down i just kidding ok

10/27/2006 9:01:39 PM

Quote :

"^I'm actually not joking. I've got family that lived in Tehran for a couple dozen years, and it was ridiculous. And that's a capital city! Not some random village."

Oh, I thought this was a "don't throw out everyone for a few bad apples" kind of post, lol

10/27/2006 9:04:35 PM

ive heard of similar problems here in the US with muslim immigrants


[Edited on October 27, 2006 at 9:45 PM. Reason : !]

10/27/2006 9:45:07 PM

Quote :

"BridgetSPK: ^I'm actually not joking. I've got family that lived in Tehran for a couple dozen years, and it was ridiculous. And that's a capital city! Not some random village small town."

I gotsta cover my ass!

10/27/2006 10:54:51 PM

I am, I am, I am
I said I wanna get next to you
I said I gonna get close to you
You wouldn't want me have to hurt you too, hurt you too?

I ain't, I ain't, I ain't
A buyin' into your apathy
I'm gonna learn ya my philosophy
You wanna know about atrocity, atrocity?

I know you want what's on my mind
I know you like what's on my mind
I know it eats you up inside
I know, you know, you know, you know

I am a man, a man
I'll give ya somethin' that ya won't forget
I said ya shouldn't have worn that dress
I said ya shouldn't have worn that dress

I know you want what's on my mind
I know you like what's on my mind
I know it eats you up inside
I know, you know, you know, you know

Here I come, I come, I come

I am, I am, I am
I said I wanna get next to you
I said I gonna get close to you
You wouldn't want me have to hurt you too, hurt you too?

I know you want what's on my mind
I know you like what's on my mind
I know it eats you up inside
I know, you know, you know, you know
I know you want what's on my mind
I know you like what's on my mind
I know it eats you up inside
I know, you know, you know, you know

Here I come, I come, I come
Here I come, I come, I come
Here I come, I come, I come
Here I come, I come, I come

10/27/2006 11:08:08 PM

Quote :

"I mean, under the Islamic law a woman has to produce 3 witnesses to prove she was raped. Who the hell has three people watch you get raped?"

I see this thrown around a lot, but it is not true. It cannot be true. Show me some authentic Islamic jurisprudence source (Qur'an, Hadith, consensus of scholars) which says what you are claiming.

Quote :

"I don't think its reflective of all muslims, but I do think treating women as less than equal seems to be a general trend in Islamic societies."

Unfortunately, that is very true, and it angers me into a rage [and tears sometime].

BTW, a rapist's punishment is the death penalty.

10/29/2006 6:11:44 PM

^I wish we would kill rapists/child molestors

that are proven guilty without a doubt

10/29/2006 6:26:16 PM

^^I think it's hilarious how you flaunt the death penalty in your defense of Islamic law.

[Edited on October 29, 2006 at 9:01 PM. Reason : What else do they kill you for?]

10/29/2006 9:01:13 PM

^ Wow, it might be a foreign concept to you, but billions of people support the death penalty, maybe even the majority of the world.

You are starting with the assumption that a religion can't have the death penalty as one of its punishments.

WHERE DOES THAT COME FROM, YOU BLLEEDING HEART?

I AM SORRY IT MAKES YOU SAD THAT RAPISTS ARE EXECUTED

Hey, here is one better: What if you were raped one day, and the rapist was given the death penalty. What are you going to do--try to stop his execution?

[Edited on October 30, 2006 at 12:31 AM. Reason : ]

10/30/2006 12:29:38 AM

I bet the majority of the world hates Saudi Arabia too, we should death-penalty all over them.

10/30/2006 12:33:40 AM

^^You got a little excited about the death penalty. Reread what I wrote. "I think it's hilarious how you flaunt the death penalty in your defense of Islamic law." I was speaking about myself, not billions of people accross the globe.

And plenty of victims plead for the criminals' lives, by the way.

10/30/2006 2:47:06 AM

I'm not real knowledgeable about Islamic law, but here's something I looked up. Seems to be law in Pakistan that is based on an implementation of Islamic Law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood_Ordinance

Quote :

"The Hudood Ordinance (Urdu: ???? ????? ) is a law in Pakistan, intended to implement Muslim Shari'a law, which enforces punishments mentioned in the Quran and sunnah for a number of crimes. It was enacted in 1979 as part of then military ruler Zia-ul-Haq's Islamization process. The Ordinance is most criticized for criminalizing all extra-marital sex (zina), and making it exceptionally difficult and dangerous to prove an allegation of rape. A woman alleging rape is required to provide four adult male witnesses of "the act of penetration", and if the accused man is Muslim, the witnesses must be Muslims themselves. Failure to prove rape places the woman at risk of prosecution for adultery, which does not require such strong evidence[1]. "

The actual text of the Ordinance (translated in English) is

Quote :

""the accused makes before a Court of competent jurisdiction a confession of the commission of the offence" or b): "at least four Muslim adult male witnesses, about whom the Court is satisfied, having regard to the requirements of tazkiyah al-shuhood, that they are truthful persons and abstain from major sins (kabair), give evidence as eye-widnesses of the act of penetration necessary to the offence: Provided that, if the accused is a non-Muslim, the eye-witnesses may be non-Muslims.""

http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/002976.html

I think that at least proves that in some countries that claim to practice a form of Islamic Law, this kind of shit is true.

10/30/2006 7:31:31 AM

Quote :

"NO ONE in the US has blamed the woman for sex attacks before."

Victim blaming is pretty damned common in the US. Yes, the psychology behind that is fairly different than unadultered chavanism and women are in fact almost as likely to participate in it as men are when it comes to a woman being assaulted.

If you put islam on a similar time line as christianity, this would be about the time the catholic church was burning witches and labling women as tools of satan right? Maybe any large religion goes through a phase where it acts like the catholic church of the 1200's-1700's? Anyways, if you askes any of the more progressive muslims- which happen to be a majority of those you're likely to encounter at state- I gaurantee you they'll condem this cleric for two reasons. Firstly and most importantly, they disagree with him. Secondly, when prominent cleric's say shit like this is gives xenophobes and extremists more ammo to throw at them.

Austrilia,

Quote :

"an otherwise fine country"

?

Haha, ask the people on Naru how fine they think Australia is. Australia is so frigtheningly xenophobic I wouldn't be surprised if this story was a fake. I beleive it's true mind you, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was just propoganda to stir up fear and hate. Australia's genocidal history matches our own, and their current levels of xenophobia make Vernon Robinson look like an immigrant's best friend.

[Edited on October 30, 2006 at 7:59 AM. Reason : ]

10/30/2006 7:59:28 AM

my dad went to Australia in the 80's and he said he felt like he was in the Mississippi during the 40's.

10/30/2006 8:36:04 AM

Australia, South Africa, Southern United States......same shit different continent

10/30/2006 7:52:05 PM

sometimes i rly think islamic leaders are the cry babies of the world. of all the religions in the world it seems like they are the only ones that are always bitching and complaining.

10/30/2006 8:09:29 PM

Its because they know they're number 2 to Christianity....

10/30/2006 8:11:36 PM

maybe tomorrow the Dali Lamma will call for suicide bombings in china, or some jewish leaders call for jewish jihaad against Germany for the holocaust 60 years ago.

its almost as bad as black people using the race card. instead in world politics we have islamic clerics using the religion card.

10/30/2006 8:16:08 PM

This may seem pretty biased but I'm really trying to take an outsider look at this. This is how I see them

Islam is much like a virus

Preys on poor/indigent populations (hosts) by giving them false hope of a wonderful afterlife but ultimately fails in most practical applications because of the strict Islamic laws that retard education/reasoning skills among the overwhelming majority.

In Western Christianity, there has been a since of individualism and free will that has allowed for many great (and sometimes terrible) actions among its followers. Kind of like the old saying: "God only helps those who help themselves"

[Edited on October 30, 2006 at 8:31 PM. Reason : .]

10/30/2006 8:31:21 PM

Quote :

"Preys on poor/indigent populations (hosts) by giving them false hope of a wonderful afterlife but ultimately fails in most practical applications because of the strict Islamic laws that retard education/reasoning skills among the overwhelming majority."

So it's like the 12th-16th century Catholic Church.

10/30/2006 8:36:01 PM

lol, if you're saying that Islam is 500 years behind Christianity.....yea

10/30/2006 8:37:32 PM

It's about 500 years younger (than the catholic church at least.) Same stuff, same cycle, just offset.

[Edited on October 30, 2006 at 8:50 PM. Reason : ]

10/30/2006 8:49:08 PM

no correlation

10/30/2006 9:02:04 PM

I am no sure that I subscribe to the point that Islam is very similar but only 500 years behind Christianity.

It is clear that some here believe it however..and that leads to an interesting question.

We have heard heavy condemnation of Christianity over that period of time.
We even hear Christianity discredited today by many for what happened so long ago..long before any of us were even born.

So my question is this...
If you think that you are facing in Islam today what you claim the Christians to be 500 years ago...what are you prepared to do about it?
From what I can tell...those who are most critical of Christianity want to "understand" Islam.
You like to think about what you would have done to stop atrocities....Well..here is your chance.
You know good and well that you were not going to negotiate any atrocities away. If you do, you are a fool.

Of course I am not suggesting that anybody here start violence against somebody walking down the street. Please do not take that from my words.
But if only there were a party who was trying to jumpstart this Culture past the Dark Ages.
If only there was a party trying to reign in all this madness.
Hint...it does not have Donkeys.

[Edited on November 1, 2006 at 6:08 AM. Reason : .]

11/1/2006 6:07:55 AM

And who the fuck are the Republicans to think they can "jumpstart" Islam out of what you see as their Dark Age?

11/1/2006 6:50:01 AM

I don't see why a religion couldn't be jump started out of its dark ages. I mean, how did Christianity exit that period? Why couldn't it be accelerated?

If you can't learn from history and correct your mistakes, you've got nothing.

11/1/2006 6:53:38 AM

I am not saying that a religion can't be modernized. I am questioning the premise of suggesting that only the Republican party have the power from on High or where ever to decide they are the ones to do it above all others.

11/1/2006 6:58:13 AM

Well, part of it comes from arrogance and the other part comes from the fact that they are the only ones who've been saying "The way you practice your religion has become unacceptable" whereas the rest of Americans say "Let it go man, they can beat their women if they want to"

11/1/2006 7:24:49 AM

HockeyRoman..
I am an American before I am a Republican.

I do not say that the GOP is the only group that can effect change.
I AM saying is that the GOP seems to be the only group willing to try.
(Trying to negotiate with animals is not seriously trying.)
If you...or anybody wants to join in, I speak for the GOP when I say..WELCOME!!!
Now do not get me wrong....I am not saying you HAVE to join the right. If all you want to do is help in this cause and then go on your political way, that is fine.

11/1/2006 9:29:09 AM

The gist of this whole deal is that Islam is causing more bloodshed right now, in this day and age, than any other religion.

11/1/2006 11:12:33 AM