Quote :

"MIDDLETON, Wis. -- In Wisconsin, a Jewish man whose polling place was at a Catholic church said he was disturbed to see a crucifix hanging over a ballot box. Dr. Zeev Bar-Av of Middleton said issues on Tuesday's ballot such as gay marriage and the death penalty "are essentially on the national divide on religion and non-religion." The 65-year-old Middleton man said, "If there is a place where church and state should be separated, the polling place should be it." Wisconsin Elections Board executive director Kevin Kennedy said the state and municipalities struggle to come up with adequate polling places, and churches have plenty of parking. He adds that polling places don't have to be redecorated to protect voters from feeling uncomfortable, and voters who are bothered can always vote absentee."

What's the problem with some people? Would anyone that was planning to vote in favor of gay marriage all of a sudden 'repent' and change their vote simply because the polling place is a church? Maybe this guy can talk to his rabbi to see if they can offer up their synagogue to voting.

11/8/2006 12:01:19 PM

Quote :

"Would anyone that was planning to vote in favor of gay marriage all of a sudden 'repent' and change their vote simply because the polling place is a church?"

yeah maybe. but this is stupid

11/8/2006 12:02:39 PM

I didn't. I voted in a church and I voted against the marriage amendment.

This sounds like a really whiny Jew-thing to do.

11/8/2006 12:10:11 PM

^ huh? was the marriage amendment on the ballot? I don't remember seeing that....

11/8/2006 12:11:53 PM

(I live in South Carolina)

11/8/2006 12:12:22 PM

it was only in certain states

11/8/2006 12:51:56 PM

It was in Wisconsin

11/8/2006 1:25:53 PM

I agree with the guy ... You shouldn't have to cast your vote in the pews ...

11/8/2006 2:04:32 PM

aw poor baby

11/8/2006 2:05:28 PM

Take it the other way ... a polling place in the Church of Satan ...

11/8/2006 2:10:24 PM

I agree with him too. It doesn't matter that he's Jewish.

11/8/2006 2:11:57 PM

Well, it depends on convenience. Was there a possible alternative to voting in the church? If not, and if they have been voting in the same place for several elections, then the Jew is out of line. I mean, its not like Jesus is going to come off the cross and change his vote for him. It is secret ballot, so his decision isn't altered either way.

As a more diplomatic approach, I think I would try to find an alternative place in the future though.

11/8/2006 2:27:42 PM

i think elections should be done in public spaces like schools, rec centers, etc. this seems like the natural place for elections to take place.

11/8/2006 2:32:48 PM

Quote :

"Take it the other way ... a polling place in the Church of Satan ..."

I'd vote in the Church of Satan without bitching.

I voted in a cult's house of worship this time around (a wacko non-denom facility) and I didn't care. Shit the place was nice and I didn't have to wait outside in the rain like the next precint over, which voted at the fire department.

__
Should people who don't believe in public schools be forced to vote in one of them? It might sway their votes! (you vote where they tell you and you shut the fuck up, god damn this is the problem with the country right now)

[Edited on November 8, 2006 at 2:38 PM. Reason : .]

11/8/2006 2:37:36 PM

look, i think the dude is complaining about the fact that there was a crucifix hanging over the ballot box, as if trying to guilt people into voting a certain way, not the fact that it was in a church.

do i agree with him? nah. i can see where he's coming from though. but, this is pretty weak

11/8/2006 2:40:28 PM

Quote :

"Take it the other way ... a polling place in the Church of Satan ..."

That still merits a "who cares" out of me.

Maybe the fact that several polling places were schools (including where I voted) skewed the results from the education bond

[Edited on November 8, 2006 at 2:45 PM. Reason : g]

11/8/2006 2:44:48 PM

Quote :

"do i agree with him? nah. i can see where he's coming from though. but, this is pretty weak"

I can see that point, but only if I actually saw the setup. I mean, its hard to be in a Catholic Church without seeing a crucifix, so I'm not sure how much it really was "hanging over the ballot box"

If they moved it there on purpose, or there was an obviously better place for the ballot box, then I can see his complaint.

Any Jews out here want to answer me this, though:
Why does he care? He doesn't believe Jesus was God, so its just some dead guy on a stick. Does it really upset him that much?

11/8/2006 2:55:14 PM

Quote :

"bgmims: Any Jews out here want to answer me this, though: Why does he care? He doesn't believe Jesus was God, so its just some dead guy on a stick. Does it really upset him that much?"

I don't think his being Jewish is that significant.

11/8/2006 10:32:07 PM

Ok, well I think my point was the same for non-Christians

Why does an image of someone you don't believe in cause you that much trouble in a ballot box?

If they had an image of the FSM, I'd not even take much notice.

11/9/2006 8:18:08 AM

im just gonna shake the tree...

would a Christian be mad if they had to vote in a Mosque

or mabye a Church of statan.

or a Muslim had to vote in a Brewery or Pig Slaughter House

or a Hindu at a beef farm.

11/9/2006 9:34:40 AM

Dental, maybe you didn't read, but we already played with the whole church of satan thing.

The same stands for the others. Any place that has room enough for a district to vote in is fine. To think it matters is ridiculous. Now, if they made a muslim vote while chugging a beer, I'd speak up.

Or even if they made a Hindu vote while watching cows be slaughtered.

But my guess is he didn't even vote in the sanctuary. I repeat: What a Jew!

11/9/2006 9:39:44 AM

maybe I should start reading threads and stop posting while im reading books.

gg

11/9/2006 9:43:27 AM

I'll take a Jew over a bigot any day ...

11/9/2006 9:46:37 AM

ive always thought voting in a sanctuary was weird, use a fellowship hall

11/9/2006 9:52:33 AM

Yeah, voting in a sanctuary would strike me as weird.

Overall, I don't see this guy's case. You're going there for a completely nonreligious function, and they're one of few types of buildings that can accomodate everything without upsetting any normal goings-on (since few churches are doing anything on Tuesday).

11/9/2006 10:17:43 AM

Quote :

"I'll take a Jew over a bigot any day ... "

Moi Aussie, my comment was obviously facetious.

I said this before, but I'll reiterate:
If they put the ballot boxes in an unusual place just so beat-down Jesus could stare that the guy while he voted, I can see his point.

If they moved the crucifix from its usual place, specifically to state down the Jew-voters, I can see this guy's point.

Otherwise, they just chose that place to vote and he needs to deal with it. Jesus on a stick cannot hurt him and if he had a decent backing for his moral compass, he shouldn't fear it while he votes.

11/9/2006 10:27:22 AM

MUOY AUSSIE

11/9/2006 12:21:17 PM

Quote :

"and they're one of few types of buildings that can accomodate everything without upsetting any normal goings-on (since few churches are doing anything on Tuesday)."

i didn't really think about this aspect of the reason for using a church.

i think this is yet another reason why election day should be a national holiday. it seems like the most natural national holiday to me.

11/9/2006 12:46:12 PM

I could see making it a holiday. If nothing else, it would remind people that it is, in fact, election day. I think that a lot of people just forget -- I almost did last year.

"Why do I have today off? Oh, that's right..."

My concern would be people just using it to make a day trip or even a long weekend.

Even with all that, though, I think churches would still be commonly used. For one, they (along with schools) are something that you can be sure exist in every single precinct. They also have parking, usually a large interior space, and proximity to residential areas.

11/9/2006 2:30:56 PM

The church could take it the other way and be offended that a Jew was anywhere near their crucifix.

You know, after his people killed Jesus and everything.

11/9/2006 2:34:47 PM

Quote :

"Crazywade: Well, it depends on convenience. Was there a possible alternative to voting in the church? If not, and if they have been voting in the same place for several elections, then the Jew is out of line."

So if there was an alternative place, you'd think the guy had a point?

Quote :

"bgmims: Dental, maybe you didn't read, but we already played with the whole church of satan thing."

Yeah, and two users said they would be fine voting in a church of Satan. I guess that settles that argument!

Quote :

"bgmims: The same stands for the others. Any place that has room enough for a district to vote in is fine. To think it matters is ridiculous. Now, if they made a muslim vote while chugging a beer, I'd speak up. Or even if they made a Hindu vote while watching cows be slaughtered. But my guess is he didn't even vote in the sanctuary. I repeat: What a Jew!"

bgmims shares his personal opinion again! This is a matter of personal opinion, but you keep trying to say "Oh, I'd be fine with it. What a Jew! End of discussion." Don't you get it?

Quote :

"bgmims: Moi Aussie, my comment was obviously facetious."

Was it facetious?

"I repeat: What a Jew!"

"This sounds like a really whiny Jew-thing to do."

Quote :

"bgmims: Jesus on a stick cannot hurt him and if he had a decent backing for his moral compass, he shouldn't fear it while he votes."

WTF does his moral compass have to do with feeling uncomfortable in a church?

Quote :

"sarijoul: i think this is yet another reason why election day should be a national holiday. it seems like the most natural national holiday to me."

Voter turnout would decline. We'd all be at the beach on our day off!

11/9/2006 2:51:28 PM

what, is there a draft in here?

you couldn't have something to knosh on?

what kind of place of worship is this anyway, you don't like us or something?

11/9/2006 3:03:54 PM

Quote :

"WTF does his moral compass have to do with feeling uncomfortable in a church? "

If he's strong enough in his beliefs it would be irellevant where he votes. Look at it this way, what about a church would make you uncomfortable if you don't believe in anything the church stands for? For someone strong in their beliefs it would be akin to visiting a greek temple or stonehenge or the vatican. An idle curiosity but nothing threatening at all.

Quote :

"Voter turnout would decline. We'd all be at the beach on our day off!"

Like voter turnout could get much worse. The last few elections have seen the highest turnout in a long while, and only because of Bush.

11/9/2006 3:40:27 PM

Quote :

"Maybe the fact that several polling places were schools (including where I voted) skewed the results from the education bond "

I'm with you on this one

11/9/2006 4:24:01 PM

I, for one, don't feel 100% comfortable in churches.

Also, it's more than reasonable to believe that have to vote under your crucified lord could sway some votes, given the heavy emphasis by the Christian right that the church is against abortion and same-sex marriage.

11/9/2006 6:32:14 PM

there was this one time I went to a big ol' church down the street from my house

they had these weird basins with what I guess was, I don't know... acid or something, because I touched it to smell what it was and it burned like a mother

it sucked

11/9/2006 7:29:23 PM

Quote :

"1337 b4k4: If he's strong enough in his beliefs it would be irellevant where he votes. Look at it this way, what about a church would make you uncomfortable if you don't believe in anything the church stands for? For someone strong in their beliefs it would be akin to visiting a greek temple or stonehenge or the vatican. An idle curiosity but nothing threatening at all."

I understood that's what he was getting at, but it's total nonsense.

I don't think Jesus was the son of God, but I would still feel disrespectful to others if I shat on a tacky, plastic baby Jesus in the Nativity deal. Similarly, I'm not a Christian, but I still feel uncomfortable in churches.

Is my "moral compass" broken or something?

11/9/2006 9:14:54 PM

^ Yes.

If you feel uncomfortable in a church/mosque/whatever because people there might have religious beliefs and you're an agnostic/atheist, then your moral compass is broken. If you're uncomfortable because one of those people might come up to you and proselytize, then you're normal. And there's practically no chance this will happen in a voting situation. Any other time you might find yourself in a religious establishment, you should probably expect some preaching.

I can understand though how someone of one religion would feel uncomfortable in another religion's temple. Most Christian Americans would probably feel uncomfortable in a mosque too.

Personally, I don't care. They probably should try and pick a more neutral polling place, but I don't care what they do. I won't shed a tear either way.

11/9/2006 9:18:51 PM

Quote :

"If you feel uncomfortable in a church/mosque/whatever because people there might have religious beliefs and you're an agnostic/atheist, then your moral compass is broken."

I don't feel uncomfortable because of something. I just feel uncomfortable.

11/9/2006 9:22:33 PM

^^^ There's a world of difference between feeling that doing something offensive to someone would be disrespectful and being made uncomfortable by what ammounts to a bunch of wood, stone and metal.

As ^^ said, it would be one thing to feel uncomfortable if there were preaching going on, but we're talking about just being in the building to vote. Were it me, I'd probably take the time there to look around at what was around me, but then again, I find seeing how different people view and construct their world fascinating.

^ but why do you feel uncomfortable? What about the church/mosque/temple makes you uncomfortable?

[Edited on November 9, 2006 at 9:24 PM. Reason : x]

11/9/2006 9:23:42 PM

I had to vote in a church and I am not Christian. Woo-hoo. But it wasn't like the ballot box was in the cathedral on the alter or anything.

11/9/2006 9:24:09 PM

^^^ The only reason I can imagine someone feeling uncomfortable is if they are not comfortable with their own beliefs. If they somehow feel that there's a good chance they might be wrong, and that God will somehow smote them for defiling its holy ground.

11/9/2006 9:34:09 PM

People are too freakin' insensitive. It's a freaking voting place, maybe there's nowhere else in the area that can support election traffic. Sometimes people, it's not all about you so get over yourselves.

11/9/2006 9:36:52 PM

so then they are too sensitive?

11/9/2006 9:44:06 PM

Pretty much.

11/9/2006 9:49:56 PM

Interesting...

11/9/2006 9:58:13 PM

Quote :

"I don't feel uncomfortable because of something. I just feel uncomfortable."

Wow Bridget, please enlighten the philosophers in all of us and explain this something from nothing concept.

How does your discomfort not have a cause?

11/9/2006 10:00:54 PM

Quote :

"he 65-year-old Middleton man said, "If there is a place where church and state should be separated, the polling place should be it.""

11/9/2006 10:20:55 PM

Quote :

"This sounds like a really whiny Jew-thing to do."

11/9/2006 10:22:40 PM

Well I'm pretty sure they meant the institution, rather than the building.
If there were another place they could have easily put it, then fine, no big deal for them to put it elsewhere.

But if they used a church for its central location, size and setup, then "feeling uncomfortable" should not be something to take into consideration.

I have a cousin that has an irrational fear of fire trucks. He's had it since he was very little, and he avoids them like the plague. When he turns 18, he'll be voting in the district that votes in the fire station. I'm sure he'll be uncomfortable. Doesn't mean we all should move it for him because it makes him uncomfortable.

Church is a bit different, because of the separation, but the odds are, nothing in that church forced or even attempted to force this guy to vote one way or the other. It was his own conscience making it difficult for him to accept his own viewpoints. That sucks, but it doesn't mean they should change standard voting procedures.

11/9/2006 10:27:37 PM