No more hijacking http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=452954

Someone please tell me how an Agnostic Atheist differs from an Agnostic.

1/3/2007 10:19:24 PM

Atheist: does not believe in gods.
Agnostic: does not know with complete certainty that gods exist.
Agnostic Atheist: does not know with complete certainty that gods exist, but does not believe in them.

1/3/2007 10:21:36 PM

Agnosticism never says "I believe in God" or "I don't believe in God." So you can't put Agnostic in front of Atheist so casually and say that one encompasses the other.

Nobody can KNOW if God exists or not, so that's a ridiculous thing to say

[Edited on January 3, 2007 at 10:23 PM. Reason : did you read my last response in the old thread?]

1/3/2007 10:22:58 PM

I didn't casually place agnostic in front of atheist.

Just as there are multiple denominations of Christianity, there are multiple ones of atheism and agnosticism. Look it up.

</thread>

1/3/2007 10:24:29 PM

No, you're being far too simplistic about this.

Just because you found some term on the internet that someone made up and you feel like using, doesn't mean it fits into the classical definitions of these things.

[Edited on January 3, 2007 at 10:29 PM. Reason : .]

1/3/2007 10:26:25 PM

This thing you cited:
http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/agnostic-atheist-faq.htm

says NOTHING about:

Quote :

"2) I think that gods do exist, but due to my thoughts on their nature, I think their role in my life is minimal/nonexistent and am an agnostic.""

If anything, it says it's a hard agnosticism in which you cannot know about God's existence. So I totally can't see how you could say that you believe they do exist and still put "atheist" on there at all.

[Edited on January 3, 2007 at 10:29 PM. Reason : .]

1/3/2007 10:28:17 PM

The page you sent me even states "the atheist may or may not actually deny the existence of God."

Last I checked one of the basic principles of atheism was the assertion that deities do not exist.

http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/agnostic-atheist-faq.htm

1/3/2007 10:28:24 PM

You are being too simplistic about this.

You are also wasting my time. Make what you want of this thread.

1/3/2007 10:29:43 PM

No, I'm not! Please, show me on that site where it says what you're saying!

I can't believe you'd argue about it and then decide to leave because you can't reconcile your own beliefs.

That site is reasonable. What you said about believing in God while being an agnostic atheist (termed as it is on the website, which I find to be agnosticism) isn't.

[Edited on January 3, 2007 at 10:32 PM. Reason : .]

1/3/2007 10:30:27 PM

"does not know with complete certainty that gods exist"

You listed this under both religions. I still fail to see the difference.

1/3/2007 10:31:25 PM

If I was talking to someone who was actually paying attention to my words I wouldn't leave. You're not trying to see what I'm saying. You're trying to say "OMFG you said this and this and this" about things I did not say.

1/3/2007 10:33:51 PM

I'm not at all! I copied what you typed!

Seriously, point out where I didn't read.

I explained the difference between knowing and thinking is indeed different, but since nothing can be proven here, they're the same time.

1/3/2007 10:34:53 PM

wtf are you smoking?

David0603
Someone please tell me how an Agnostic Atheist differs from an Agnostic.

mcfluffle
Agnostic: does not know with complete certainty that gods exist.
Agnostic Atheist: does not know with complete certainty that gods exist

1/3/2007 10:35:03 PM

^ In the context of the site, it's just agnosticism again... I mean, if you cannot know if gods exist or not, you cannot then say that you don't believe they exist.

That's half of why this is confusing.

Fundamentally, you cannot be agnostic and then believe or not believe in God.

What I think you're saying is that you're agnostic but more inclined to believe God doesn't exist than to believe he does. Or am I wrong? Because you did say that you believed Gods did exist?

That very after belief is the one that's incompatible- if you say humans can't know if gods exist or not (which I totally agree with), then why have a belief about whether God does?

[Edited on January 3, 2007 at 10:41 PM. Reason : .]

1/3/2007 10:36:16 PM

1/3/2007 11:28:16 PM

Stop showing that picture. You're the only one that accepts that terminology.

1/4/2007 1:59:11 AM

^Wait. What's wrong with the picture? It's right on.

[Edited on January 4, 2007 at 6:54 AM. Reason : sss]

1/4/2007 6:54:34 AM

yeah - that picture is good.
The "Areligous" could also be considered the literal definition of "atheist", as in "a-theist", the difference being an "a-theist" would not subscribe to the belief in any particular god, but would make no statement as to whether a god exists or not.

notice the difference in the statements:
"I am an atheist" - meaning/implying that I believe there is no god
"I am atheist" - meaning that I do not follow the teachings of or practice the philosophies of any god, but I make no statement as to whether one exists, nor do I really care. probably if there is a god, it would be a non-benevolent god unconcerned with human actions, i.e. the watch-maker who set the universe in motion then washed his hands of it.

Since the word atheist has so many negative conotations and misunderstandings now, I would propose areligious should be a common term.

1/4/2007 7:41:56 AM

that picture seems pretty mean-spirited and aimed at pissing off the very people with whom it's trying to clear things up

also, did mcdanger draw himself a giant penis in that pic or does he just have a third leg?

1/4/2007 8:12:19 AM

What negative connotations?

1/4/2007 8:16:09 AM

Quote :

"You are being too simplistic about this."

Replaces "I don't know what the hell I'm saying"

from now on in the SB.

1/4/2007 8:18:04 AM

Quote :

"What negative connotations?"

Athiests are viewed very negatively in the US. The mainstream Christian view of atheists is that they are amoral. Many/most christians have a hard time understanding how an atheist know "what's right from wrong", and some even claim that it's impossible to have morals without God/religion, i.e. that the definition of morals is how God tells humans how to act.

Remember the survey that came out last year about who is the most "distrusted minority" group?
http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2006/03/24/67686

Quote :

"Based on a telephone survey of more than 2,000 households and in-depth interviews with more than 140 people, researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, homosexuals and other groups as "sharing their vision of American society." Americans are also least willing to let their children marry atheists. "

You can't have a result like that and claim that there are no negative connotations about atheists.

Not to mention, it doesn't help when former presidents say that they think atheists shouldn't even be allowed to be US citizens.

Quote :

"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God. …. Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists. "

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_H.W._Bush

1/4/2007 9:42:41 AM

Yeah, but every religion has some negative connotations.

1/4/2007 9:48:41 AM

yeah, well. this thread is about atheists, so that's why we get to talk about negative connotations related to the "non-religion" of atheism.
but for religious people, of any religion, they can usually find something good to say about people of other religions. e.g. "even if xxx is not Christian, at least he believes and has faith in something. He is being held accountable to a higher power". What good things do mainstream christians, jews, muslims, etc have to say about atheists.

1/4/2007 10:12:04 AM

Well, for one, Jews don't tell me I'm going to hell like Christian do.

1/4/2007 10:13:17 AM

that sounds more like a negative thing that christians do that jews don't, moreso than a positive thing that jews do.
Either way, point taken and agreed with.

1/4/2007 10:17:04 AM

What good things to Jews have to say about Muslims?

1/4/2007 10:18:55 AM

this has strayed pretty far from the topic. but if you really want to get into it: plenty of muslims helped jews during the holocaust. so i'm sure some of them have good things to say about muslims.

1/4/2007 10:50:27 AM

For goodness sake people, we shouldn't need four or more categories to define whether or not someone believes in something. I say the existence of gods can't be disproven, but I have no reason to believe in them. Same goes for the brain-in-a-vat concept and other ideas about higher realities. Belief is a yes/no answer. Do you believe in gods or don't you? Theists believe. Atheists don't, whether it's because they think they can disprove gods, they've never been introduced to gods, or they have insufficient reasons to believe in gods. Additional terms are of little value and I'm sick of them. Who's the idiot that thought up "agnostic"? It's impossible to know a lot of metaphysical shit, but that doesn't mean your beliefs should hang in limbo between two answers. I can't prove I'm not in the matrix, but I don't say I'm matrix-agnostic, I say I have no reason to believe in the matrix so I don't. As for "areligious," the dictionaries that had it described it as being indifferent to religion, which imo means unaware of it or not caring about the subject, and I doubt that's what most of you had in mind.

1/4/2007 10:58:24 AM

that's the thing: most people who are deemed atheists really aren't. actively believing there is no god is far different from not believing there is a god.

1/4/2007 11:09:34 AM

I'm not going to get into a southpark like arguement about Atheists...


I am Agnostic (Agnostics claim either that it is not possible to have absolute or certain knowledge or, alternatively, that while certainty may be possible, they personally have no knowledge. Agnosticism in both cases involves some form of skepticism.)

We do NOT necessarily believe in a god or such. In fact it's a big gray area. Agnostic Atheist is a combination of different terms. That's like saying "Slightly fat, whale of a guy". Doesn't make sense.

You are one of these three.
1) Religious
2) Agnostic
3) Atheist.

Spiritual people can belong in either 1 or 2 but not both.

Generally Agnostic's are people who doesn't want to say either way. We're the fence riders because we don't have solid proof to go either way.

Atheists like my father, are purely scientifically based 99% of the time. Everything has a scientific explanation, there are no ghosts, no spirits, what you see is what you get.

Please don't confuse the two.

[Edited on January 4, 2007 at 11:17 AM. Reason : !grammer sucks]

1/4/2007 11:16:29 AM

i was with you up until here:

Quote :

"Atheists like my father, are purely scientifically based 99% of the time. Everything has a scientific explanation, there are no ghosts, no spirits, what you see is what you get."

there is no necessary scientific reasoning behind atheism. they could just choose to believe there is no god because of "faith" in their intuitions or any number of reasons.

1/4/2007 11:19:10 AM

^^^^ You get the silver medal for dumbest person in the thread.

[Edited on January 4, 2007 at 11:20 AM. Reason : ]

1/4/2007 11:20:23 AM

i like stephen colbert's definition, "Agnostics are just Athiests without balls."

1/4/2007 11:30:07 AM

^ Which doesn't actually make any sense. Agnostics aren't people who "don't know which side to be on."

Quote :

"Who's the idiot that thought up "agnostic"? It's impossible to know a lot of metaphysical shit, but that doesn't mean your beliefs should hang in limbo between two answers."

Someone who wanted to state outright that you can't KNOW and therefore can't choose. It's more honest than just a baseless belief in the presence or absence of God. It's not a check Yes, No, or Maybe thing like you make it out to be.

[Edited on January 4, 2007 at 2:59 PM. Reason : .]

1/4/2007 2:53:33 PM

It doesn't fit accurately, but it is still pretty damn funny to look at them as non-committal rather than an independent position.

That is why I love Colbert.

1/4/2007 3:40:56 PM

no overlap kiddies

1/4/2007 3:48:38 PM

Quote :

"actively believing there is no god is far different from not believing there is a god. "

???????? how?

1/4/2007 4:45:38 PM

one is making a claim, the other is not.

1/4/2007 4:50:17 PM

Quote :

"actively believing there is no god is far different from not believing there is a god."

i would rephrase that as:
actively believing there is no god is far different from not believing in a god.

hopefully you can see how that statement is true, but i'm not sure if it means the same thing as the first statement.

1/4/2007 4:56:26 PM

i'm not entirely sure that i'm clear what the difference is

1/4/2007 5:00:49 PM

erm..... yeah, now that i read them both again they do sound quite similar.... My intention was to make the 2nd statement sound "softer", in that the phrase "not believing in a god" makes no claim as to whether a god exists or not, whereas "not believing there is a god" could appear to claim that no god exists.
but i guess they mean the same thing. i dunno. n/m

1/4/2007 5:06:51 PM

One thinks he knows that God doesn't exist, the other thinks he has no reason to believe that God exists. Both disbelieve, both fit the definition of atheism.

1/4/2007 5:48:59 PM

What you just said means the first person is an atheist.

The second person is as confusing as mcfluffle by saying they don't believe in god and yet make no claims of knowing if gods exist or not. But if you don't know if gods exist, there's no reason to say you don't believe in god because that's contradictory.

The way you said it, they should be the same. If you deny the existence of a god, you're an atheist.

[Edited on January 4, 2007 at 5:50 PM. Reason : .]

1/4/2007 5:50:04 PM

Seriously.

No God would allow this thread to happen.

1/4/2007 6:09:11 PM

Is Shivan Bird functionally retarded?

1/4/2007 6:13:55 PM

Or can he just use a dictionary?

1/4/2007 6:24:04 PM

I'm just sitting here reading and rereading what you've posted, completely baffled about how you don't get it.

I'm not about to try to correct you, either. If you can't slam two and two together with all of the resources people have provided you, there's no hope.

1/4/2007 6:26:58 PM

Jesus Christ.

1/4/2007 6:47:06 PM

agnostic - there may, or may not be 1 or more entities in the universe that would qualifiy as a diety or god as defined by the religous beliefs of sections of humanity thoughout history

atheist - no god or gods, its just you, me, and the sheep.


how is it that those look identical to you. Or is this another one of thsoe my god and then everyone else type mind sets ?

1/4/2007 6:49:25 PM