1. I believe in God
2. As far back as science can take me (all the way to the Big Bang Theory), someone (God) had to put everything there in the first place
3. I view the Bible as a set of guidelines for life, rather than something to be literally interpreted
4. Do I believe that Jesus was the son of God? I really dont know...how am I supposed to know....faith is the only option here. If a man approached you on the street today and claimed to be the son of God you would probably question his mental stability....
5. What little fraction of religions in the world that Christianity comprises, is the rest of the world that chooses alternate religion, doomed?
6. According to the literal interpretation of the Bible, people like Ghandi would be burning in hell? I just dont believe that.
7. Most religions generally seem to present the same ideas in regards to morals and the leading of a wholesome life (although there are x number of differences as well)

My issue rises really with the idea that any non-believer's in Christ/God are going to hell? The idea that a man who was 500 years old built a boat and carried 2 of every animal on it.....he parted the sea....etc.....I mean these HAVE to just be stories to inspire faith.

I just have so many questions/concerns with organized faith and Im quite troubled by it.....obviously seeing a Priest would be helpful but tww is easier at the moment


Thoughts? Agreeing or disagreeing is perfectly fine and I welcome all opinions. But attempt to be constructive.

1/29/2007 9:21:01 PM

Quote :

"obviously seeing a Priest would be helpful but tww is easier at the moment"

Not obviously. Maybe, but not definitely.

I really have a huge problem with the "nobody but Christians gets into Heaven"...

Furthermore, I don't know if I could even see Heaven as a place.

I don't know of God as being just one entity or being, but maybe several, if at all a being.

And who made God?

Literal interpretations are a human attempt to validate and rationalize that which is beyond man's reach.

1/29/2007 9:24:46 PM

glad to see im not alone



but i had a debate earlier with some guys who are adament about their Christian faith and as soon as i presented a question about anything, they took offense


I cant help but have questions....it's human nature to question things.....

1/29/2007 9:26:50 PM

i'd recommend vintage21 (vintage21.com) and/or their theology on tap discussion

1/29/2007 9:31:38 PM

And they have a pimp ass H3 there every day too. God pays.

1/29/2007 9:34:01 PM

Quote :

"I cant help but have questions....it's human nature to question things....."

Whenever I aks questions, Christians just tell me I need to have faith in things.

Quote :

"My issue rises really with the idea that any non-believer's in Christ/God are going to hell"

I'd suggest you get a new religion.

1/29/2007 9:38:21 PM

God really put the Babtist faith there to test us.

Everyone who believes that shit's going straight to hell.

1/29/2007 9:42:31 PM

david i'd say you are just having conversations with the wrong people - not to say there aren't a lot of christians that just don't know any better though - it's a complex topic - if you asked the general public the square root of 144..what would you expect to hear back

1/29/2007 9:43:46 PM

12

1/29/2007 9:45:49 PM

Quote :

"And who made God?"

That's what I wanna know!

1/29/2007 9:47:41 PM

God made God, silly.

1/29/2007 9:48:40 PM

Quote :

"david i'd say you are just having conversations with the wrong people"

The last one I had was with a minister and his wife. (They were going door to door)

Quote :

"it's a complex topic - if you asked the general public the square root of 144..what would you expect to hear back"

I'm not sure where you're going with this...

1/29/2007 10:02:45 PM

Soap Box wants its thread back.

1/29/2007 10:11:13 PM

you said

Quote :

"Whenever I aks questions, Christians just tell me I need to have faith in things."

some questions will never have an answer based solely on logic when dealing with religion - but i'm willing to bet a lot of the questions you are asking in fact do have answers (if not then the people were right) - just the people you are talking to don't have the answer and whenever they don't they resort back to the default answer they've always been told "you just have to have faith"

there are no intelligence requirements to join any major organized religion - some people are okay with not having answers to everything and just having faith and believing and some aren't - i wouldn't argue either one is better than the other but they will approach questions you ask differently

1/29/2007 10:12:31 PM

I don’t believe in god. From a philosophical perspective there are several problems such as the problem with evil. From a historical perspective there are several problems like many religions through out the near east & greece, several older than christianity, that employee stock type literary characters who are demi gods that undergo things like immaculate conception and resurrection and battling against snake & serpents and water to wine… and all these miracles that were played out by the time people started attributing them to Jesus too can be easily explained by practical causes like migrations of peoples, a societies fears & concerns, technological advances like being able to store nutrients longer through being able to turn them into wine etc. The arbitrary nature of faith, choosing to believe in something you have no evidence to support, and choosing to do so only when it promises you immortality and the potential for happy sky land. And Yahweh heading an unbelievable religion, institutionalized, and full of hypocrisy isn’t something I can believe in.

1/29/2007 10:12:35 PM

^I'm not sure either, but I think he'd say that most people can't answer basic math questions, let alone answer the nuances of their own theological docrtine.

Here's something I'd like to know, though. Don't most other religions (that have a heaven/hell concept) also believe that they are the one, true path? Why is it that Christianity is the focus of the debate when that comes to pass?

As a Cafeteria-Catholic (I pick and choose what I like) I'm a believer in the revelation of God at different times in different ways. Thus, its not important what religion you follow, if they have in common the important ideas of morality. i.e. being kind to your fellow man, being slow to wrath, etc.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who believes something similar to that on the subject.

1/29/2007 10:15:54 PM

Quote :

"there are no intelligence requirements to join any major organized religion"

Kind of a turn off, especially after meeting people representing these religions.

1/29/2007 10:17:26 PM

probably a horribly bad analogy but it's what i just came up with

did the stupid people at ncsu make your degree worthless

the idiots at big blue haven't made you quit yet

just because idiots do something doesn't necessarily mean it's stupid - there are probably some smart people mixed in

1/29/2007 10:25:11 PM

Right, but every state funded university will have stupid people.

Every large company will have stupid people.

I've noticed a much much larger percentage of stupid people in Christianity vs other religions.

[Edited on January 29, 2007 at 10:33 PM. Reason : ]

1/29/2007 10:33:01 PM

I'm not reading or critiqueing anyone else because they have their own rights to their beliefs

Me personally ... Christian? Yes. I pretty much assume the Old Testament is mostly records keeping and people trying to explain away normal events with the supernatural, and hoes blaming their love-child on God. God gets around in the OT. I can't explain the two versions of creation some people see, but I can say that the 6 days idea fits well with the 6 eras in the Earth's history. The "days" could mean a general period of time rather than a literal 24 hour definition ... YAY multiple meanings.

JC takes faith, period. Do I believe it? Sure, but I was raised in it, and frankly I think most of the NT isn't worth my time except the redletter. Do I believe God is a heartless asshole who's going to hold it against someone who is religiously fervent, not breaking Da Rulez, and happens to not be Christian (like Ghandi)? No.

I also think the modern establishment of a church is, for the most part, a waste ... aside from all claiming to believe, they're no different from the rest of the world. In fact, I've encountered more hate-filled snobs IN church than OUT of church. While there's definitely some value in a support system, I don't think it requires me to sit in a pew from 9:30-11:30 every Sunday morning and get told how much of a bad person I am. I'm pretty sure God isn't into abusive relationships. I do think my children should still go to Sunday school to get trained in the basics because that's my religion and it's my responsibility to pass it on, but I'm not going to hate other parents who take their children to other houses of worship.

Regardless of what you practice, the worst thing you can do is be apathetic. Whatever you choose, learn it and be ready to teach it and defend it, but never use it as an excuse to kick someone's ass, because no one likes a bully.

Hope that helps

1/29/2007 10:37:26 PM

Quote :

"Me personally ... Christian"

Quote :

"who's going to hold it against someone who is religiously fervent, not breaking Da Rulez, and happens to not be Christian (like Ghandi)? No."

I think there are a lot of Christians out there that would argue you are not a "true Christian"

1/29/2007 10:40:03 PM

you have people that couldn't their GED if they tried their hardest in christianity....or any other religion

check with a janitor/cleaning company and compare them against christianity

there are stupid people everywhere - there are smart people in most places - your encounters aren't enough to make a generalization i don't think - to base your opinion on anything (including something like religion) because of people you met is something that i used to do up until a relatively short while ago

i don't think you are trying to say christians are in general more stupid than people in other religions but go live in india or some other country where another religion is the majority for a while and you will see the same

1/29/2007 10:42:01 PM

^^

Ever hear of "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."?

Quote :

"your encounters aren't enough to make a generalization i don't think - to base your opinion on anything (including something like religion) because of people you met is something that i used to do up until a relatively short while ago"

You lost me again.

1/29/2007 10:43:48 PM

what is your screenname - i must not have it anymore and you aren't on ST

1/29/2007 10:45:01 PM

As far as people saying the Bible is a set of guidelines for life -- why?

ActOfGod: What makes the red letter worth your time? Other than the fact that Jesus spoke it, what about the content appeals to you?

1/29/2007 11:04:19 PM

Quote :

"1. I believe in God"

I wonder if for some reason other than a visceral sense of fear instilled at an early age.

Quote :

"2. As far back as science can take me (all the way to the Big Bang Theory), someone (God) had to put everything there in the first place"

This is unnecessarily close-minded and has been a moving target throughout history.

Quote :

"3. I view the Bible as a set of guidelines for life, rather than something to be literally interpreted"

That's very cosmopolitan.

Quote :

"4. Do I believe that Jesus was the son of God? I really dont know...how am I supposed to know....faith is the only option here. If a man approached you on the street today and claimed to be the son of God you would probably question his mental stability...."

As you should.

Quote :

"5. What little fraction of religions in the world that Christianity comprises, is the rest of the world that chooses alternate religion, doomed?"

Doomed because a fairy tale says so? I don't think so.

Quote :

"6. According to the literal interpretation of the Bible, people like Ghandi would be burning in hell? I just dont believe that."

Then you aren't a true believer. You are just superstitious. It's an all or nothing proposition.

Quote :

"7. Most religions generally seem to present the same ideas in regards to morals and the leading of a wholesome life (although there are x number of differences as well)"

Because the same subset of behaviors are good practices for simple survival. It has nothing to do with divine intervention.

Quote :

"I mean these HAVE to just be stories to inspire faith. "

They are, and they are part of a book where most everything else is also made up.

[Edited on January 29, 2007 at 11:39 PM. Reason : jk]

1/29/2007 11:38:43 PM

Quote :

"6. According to the literal interpretation of the Bible, people like Ghandi would be burning in hell? I just dont believe that. "

so would babies not yet baptized. You're saved by grace. What about the people in remote tribes of Africa that have never had anyone tell them anything of God?


Those are some things that you just don't know the answer to. Why does it matter? It just matters what you believe to be right and if you think you're living your life the way yo should.

1/30/2007 1:38:24 AM

1) OK...
2) I generally agree.
3) I see you're coming from a "literal interpretation is bad" point of view, but you need to realize that there is a happy medium between "the Bible is just guidelines" and "the Bible is the literal word of God." Ultimately I don't deny that God is as capable of using figurative or cryptic language as His much less competent creations are, but I also don't think He'd confuse us with an entire book of metaphors.
4) Of course you can't know any of it, and of course it boils down to faith. One would hope you'd have more faith in a thing that has been believed by billions of people for two millenia than in one professed by a random guy on the streed, but in either event it does boil down to faith.
5) Not all Christian denominations hold that nonchristians are doomed to hell or any other unpleasant treatment.
6) I disagree, if only because some parts of the Bible don't have a clear-cut literal meaning. Sometimes you run into areas where even an effort to make a literal interpretation can't in all honesty get you anywhere. Take, for example, the "only through me" bit -- did Jesus mean through Him personally, or through His teachings, or His values -- what, then?
But, if you don't prefer that tack, I do agree with you on the conclusion, which is ultimately that it is unreasonable to think that a good and loving God would send people like Ghandi to hell, and there are those Christian denominations that don't buy into that. I am Eastern Orthodox, for example (and I know many of you on here already know as much, I'm not harping on it, I'm merely talking to this guy), and the gist of our belief on who is going to where is, "We know how to get in, we don't know who is getting in," which is to say, we know that our way will get you into heaven, but we don't know that other ways might not do the same thing.
7) The explanation from a Christian apologist's point of view would be that we were preprogrammed to some extent by God with a moral code, which would, of course, therefore manifest itself in pretty much all human cultures.

1/30/2007 2:17:00 AM

I've waffled between agnosticism, atheism, Christianity, fundamentalist Christianity, agnosticism again, and then back to regular old Christianity


I can't tell you that God exists, and ask you to take that as the truth.

However, I can tell you that weird things happen the closer I get to God.

Weird to imply some good, some bad- but life definitely changes, and overall, things take a positive turn. At the very least, the bad things in life are easier to deal with.


I'm don't really want to get into Biblical interpretations, although I do see the OT and the NT as nearly a retelling of the same story, with the latter being how that world was changed by Christ. There are implications to be made, and connections that are necessary, as with any literary work. As the original translations called them, the "old covenant" and "new convenant," which carries an entirely different meaning than the word "testament."

I'm not one of these "translation nuts," but I do think that study of the history of the words, and the changes made for clarity in modern times, should be understood and taken in the context for which they were originally meant. For instance, Christ saying "Father, why have you forsaken me?" on the cross isn't truly a questioning of his own faith, or "the weight of sin" as I was taught in a baptist upbringing, but rather the first lines of the "Psalm of the Christ." As the psalms weren't numbered and neatly placed on pages back then, they were identified by their first line. Psalms 22, I ...think... is the one I'm talking about. It makes the image of the cross at the end completely change, in my opinion.


So my suggestion to you is: always keep an open mind, remember no man, nor religion, is perfect, and keep studying. When you get that sense of "peace" with it, then you've discovered the truth - or at least the truth that works for you.

1/30/2007 8:57:51 AM

Quote :

"My issue rises really with the idea that any non-believer's in Christ/God are going to hell?"

Quote :

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

There are plenty of people that claim to be Christinan that aren't. There are plenty of people that are not Christian that are otherwise living a "Christian" life. I'd say the latter has a better chance.

Quote :

"The idea that a man who was 500 years old built a boat and carried 2 of every animal on it.....he parted the sea....etc.....I mean these HAVE to just be stories to inspire faith."

They could be, but I would like to point out that if you believe that God could put everything in place for a big bang to occur which would in turn create worlds that could support life which eventually lead you to be here today then I wouldn't put parting a little water or inspiring someone to build a big boat past Him.

[Edited on January 30, 2007 at 10:08 AM. Reason : -]

1/30/2007 10:08:10 AM

Quote :

"I just have so many questions/concerns with organized faith and Im quite troubled by it....."

IMO only one question matters: Do you have reason to believe that a supernatural being that created and influences reality exists and has characteristics matching Christian doctrine or don't you?

1/30/2007 11:12:14 AM

Quote :

"6. According to the literal interpretation of the Bible, people like Ghandi would be burning in hell? I just dont believe that."

Then what is the point of even opening the Bible? It's probably more useful to you as a paper weight.

Quote :

"7. Most religions generally seem to present the same ideas in regards to morals and the leading of a wholesome life (although there are x^infinity number of differences as well)"

Fixed.

Quote :

"There are plenty of people that are not Christian that are otherwise living a "Christian" life"

Hahahaha... that's like saying:

There are plenty of people that are not neural surgeons that are otherwise living a "neural surgeon" life. That makes a lot of sense.

[rant]
The problem with all these "free-thinking" minds on tdub is that they have no solid foundation. Nothing solid to hold onto. So easily swayed by the wind. One day moving this way, the next day moving the other. I'm not saying you should never question or doubt things in life. And I'm not saying you become an intolerant douche bag, but atleast stand up for something. If you're going to believe in something, it has to be ALL or nothing. None of this wishy washy crap I hear in the Soapbox all the time. Besides, it is your "soul/after life/salvation/etc..." on the line here.
[/rant]

[Edited on January 30, 2007 at 11:30 AM. Reason : rant]

1/30/2007 11:29:25 AM

Quote :

"There are plenty of people that are not Christian that are otherwise living a "Christian" life"

Allow me to clarify:

Not committing adultery is a Christian principle. If you live in a remote African tribe and never committed adultery then you lived that Christian principle. C'mon. It's not brain surgery.

1/30/2007 11:41:42 AM

That’s because you've probably met a much larger cross section of Christians than other religions. The lower rungs of the Hindi / Islamic / Buddhist / etc. ladder don't tend to have the means to travel to the United States and regale you with their stupidity in person.

On the other hand, it could be argued that most "christians" in the United States aren't Christian at all (meaning that they follow Christ) but rather that they follow an intertwined ideology of WASPish values mixed with capitalism, individualism, and western traditions. Judeo-Christian values, in their ascendancy to the dominant religious spot in the western world, naturally took on a large share of pre-existing western values. The same can be said for Islam which, though in some ways was meant to be a break with the old Arab tribal law, is inexorably linked with the society which gave it birth.

I'm really not sure what my point is.

[Edited on January 30, 2007 at 12:16 PM. Reason : ]

1/30/2007 12:15:12 PM

Quote :

"I've noticed a much much larger percentage of stupid people in Christianity vs other religions."

That's because you need to travel more abroad to meet the stupid people from the other religions and philosophies. The stupid ones are much less likely to be able to overcome the immigration hurdles and enter the United States.

Organized religion is a human institution. If you believe in the concept of sin and that all men are sinners, then religious institutions are prone to corruption despite being divinely inspired. Being a Christian, I can point out that throughout the Bible, Christians are constantly reminded that humans, no matter how powerful or righteous, no matter what great deeds they've accomplished for God, screw up and question God all the time. God works in spite of and through their flaws. Therefore, any Christian who claims to be morally superior missed one of the most important themes in Scripture.

Quote :

"2. As far back as science can take me (all the way to the Big Bang Theory), someone (God) had to put everything there in the first place"

A classic question, and I won't even pretend that I have an answer to that one. Some view the creation story as being symbolic. I personally believe it was simply the best way to explain such an insanely complex process to man during that period. Heck, I would offer that man is unable to ever fully understand what happened.

Quote :

"3. I view the Bible as a set of guidelines for life, rather than something to be literally interpreted"

That's also an interesting question with a lot of different camps, even in the Christian world. Even among the literalist camps, there are those who say that stories like the creation are simply man's interpretation of nearly incomprehensible events. Kind of like giving someone from 10,000 BC visions of modern society and asking him to write a book on it. Just multiply the scale.

Quote :

"4. Do I believe that Jesus was the son of God? I really dont know...how am I supposed to know....faith is the only option here. If a man approached you on the street today and claimed to be the son of God you would probably question his mental stability...."

A fair question. My suggestion is to study it, give it some thought and prayer, and in the end, make up your own mind on the subject. It's God that changes men's hearts and provides relevation.

Quote :

"5. What little fraction of religions in the world that Christianity comprises, is the rest of the world that chooses alternate religion, doomed?"

That is a question that Scripture never really addressed. I can say that those who do hear the Gospel and reject it are condemned to Hell, but no one is clear on those who have never heard the Gospel. I think the Catholics take the purgatory route?

Quote :

"6. According to the literal interpretation of the Bible, people like Ghandi would be burning in hell? I just dont believe that."

This is a bit of a controversial area, so I'm going to say upfront that I come from a Reformed/Calvinist background to this question. I believe in the concept of "total depravity", that because of the first sin, man is completely mired in his sinful nature. No matter what good we try to do, no matter how purely we live our lives, man simply cannot repay such an enormous debt. We are therefore unable to approach God and accept His gift on our own merits. Therefore God so loved us that he paid that debt by sacrificing His own son for humanity, wiping away the sins of those who accept this token. That's the idea behind "grace", that man cannot do anything to redeem himself, but that God has freely paid that debt for us.

Quote :

"7. Most religions generally seem to present the same ideas in regards to morals and the leading of a wholesome life (although there are x number of differences as well)"

They do to an extent. The school of Christianity I come from believes that man has a basic understanding that he is fallen and a rough idea of what being good is. I think the way Christianity distinguishes itself from other faiths is the idea that man can do nothing to save himself, and that it was only through God's mercy that we were redeemed.

I'm no theologian; there have been greater minds than me who've written volumes on this subject both in favor and against throughout the history of religion (your questions are perfectly reasonable, theologians and skeptics have been asking it throughout all of history), but since you asked, I just wanted to give you my two cents.

1/30/2007 1:10:37 PM

you really have to base your decision on one question: do you believe the Bible is true?

if you do, then you have to believe it completely, particularly the important part that says Jesus, son of Joseph the carpenter, is the son of God, the Christ.

why? because Jesus said he was. if you believe that, than you have to believe everything else he said. if you don't believe that, then you have to believe that the Bible is completely and utterly untrue.

1/30/2007 7:17:38 PM

^ but why must it be hit or miss?


is a little faith and trust in it all, better than none?


i just dont buy into this all-or-nothing thing.....

1/30/2007 10:19:25 PM

Quote :

"kdawg(c): you really have to base your decision on one question: do you believe the Bible is true? if you do, then you have to believe it completely, particularly the important part that says Jesus, son of Joseph the carpenter, is the son of God, the Christ. why? because Jesus said he was. if you believe that, than you have to believe everything else he said. if you don't believe that, then you have to believe that the Bible is completely and utterly untrue."

This is absolute bullshit.

1/30/2007 10:31:12 PM

nah i see what kdawg is saying, and i think his point works to a certain extent... it's a commonly held point of view from most evangelicals, etc. There's nothing wrong with that view, and I for one pretty much agree with it.

but at the same time, that doesn't mean there aren't days when i don't understand it; and times when i don't necessarily agree with it... but that has to do more with my imperfections, than the messages of Christ.

but to believe in something, and to believe that it is true, doesn't necessarily mean it happened (creationism, etc.)... as perhaps believing in the symbolism and meaning behind some things are just as practical and useful as believing in the absolute fact that they really happened.

1/30/2007 10:48:37 PM

[Edited on January 30, 2007 at 10:55 PM. Reason : ]

1/30/2007 10:54:37 PM

You say the messages of Christ, but what messages? I don't see much of ethical worth in the NT. Christ isn't preparing us to improve our world, he's preparing people for the "kingdom of heaven." Remember that Christ thought this was coming soon after his death, he makes this pretty clear to the disciples.

1/30/2007 10:58:40 PM

no

1/30/2007 11:01:26 PM

^^i was referring to the commonly known "turn the other cheek," "love thy neighbor as thyself," "give unto caesar what is caesars," etc. messages they he gave in his sermons. I'm not sure he had any clue as to when he would return, but you're right... I think Peter and Paul especially thought his resurrection and return to earth would be during their lifetimes.

1/30/2007 11:08:32 PM

Quote :

"But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come."

Matthew 10:23

You're right though -- Jesus obviously didn't have a clue when (and if) he was coming back, because he made a claim and was wrong about it.

[Edited on January 30, 2007 at 11:10 PM. Reason : .]

1/30/2007 11:09:38 PM

sweet, a new pic to add to the gallery

1/30/2007 11:12:50 PM

i'm not sure what you mean by that verse... what's the context of it?

(i'm honestly not trying to bait you or anything, i'm just trying to figure out what you mean by "it was wrong.")

1/30/2007 11:16:44 PM

I still don't see why we have to believe every word of the Bible.

It's written by man.

So why can't you pick and choose what you believe?

If I was Christian, I'd be down with the compassion, love, charity, forgiveness, etc... parts,but I'd see the homosexuality-is-bad part as the opinion of one of the homophobic authors of the Bible.

1/30/2007 11:18:03 PM

He's talking to the disciples, giving them instructions about what to do on the road, how to preach, and who to preach to. Things like:

Quote :

"Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Matthew 10:5-6

1/30/2007 11:20:48 PM

1/31/2007 12:40:55 AM

Quote :

"If I was Christian, I'd be down with the compassion, love, charity, forgiveness, etc... parts,but I'd see the homosexuality-is-bad part as the opinion of one of the homophobic authors of the Bible."

And again, this goes to prove my point. Some of you people are like the wind. Blown one way or the other.

Reworded: If I was a Muslim, I'd be down with the five daily prayers, zakat, pilgrimage to Mecca, etc... parts, but I'd see the fasting-during-Ramadan part as the opinion of one of the anorexic authors of the Quran.

You see, it just doesn't work that way. You CAN pick and choose, but you SHOULD NOT label yourself Christian/Muslim/Buddhist/etc... If you do, you are merely decieving yourself and your faith/beliefs are in vain. All or nothing.

[Edited on January 31, 2007 at 10:06 AM. Reason : reword]

1/31/2007 10:05:35 AM