What I mean is, I believe the cultural differences between the races is more important than skin color in determining whether someone experiences racism, discrimination, or reduced opportunities in this day and age.

For example, a black person raised by a poor single mother who wears jeans or khakis and collared shirts (or other "respectable young man" clothes), works hard in school, stays mostly out of trouble, and gets a scholarship or takes out a student loan to go to college, will be more likely to succeed and be accepted than a middle class white kid who conforms more to a stereotypical "urban black" cultural norm. One where he is loud and obnoxious, disregards education, is involved in crime from a early age, etc.

For this reason, I think that in most cases the problems today are not true racism, but more along the lines of cultural imperialism.

2/12/2007 3:16:13 PM

Uh, it becomes racism when urban culture is attributed to black people and the "respectable clothes" are attributed to white.

You're being latently racist in this thread and don't even know it.

2/12/2007 3:27:36 PM

that's because race is a completely fictitious social construct and needs to be abolished

[Edited on February 12, 2007 at 3:29 PM. Reason : v]

2/12/2007 3:29:17 PM

^^ I know damn well I'm being what society calls racist in this thread.

2/12/2007 3:31:31 PM

Ok, then I'll disagree with this statement

Quote :

"For this reason, I think that in most cases the problems today are not true racism, but more along the lines of cultural imperialism."

and say that problems today are still about true racism.

2/12/2007 3:32:37 PM

The same could be said about some rednecks. People who are completely uncouth and rude, who wear rebel flags and overalls all the time while driving too fast in their pickups while screaming "GIT ER DUN" at the top of their lungs.

These people are disliked just as much and get just as few opportunities in life as "thugs," but nobody considers it racism.

[Edited on February 12, 2007 at 3:35 PM. Reason : V exactly my point]

2/12/2007 3:33:51 PM

Race has nothing to do with it

Anyone who works hard in school, stays mostly out of trouble, and gets a scholarship or takes out a student loan to go to college, will be more likely to succeed and be accepted than anyone who is loud and obnoxious, disregards education, is involved in crime from a early age, etc.

2/12/2007 3:34:12 PM

Quote :

"The same could be said about some rednecks. People who are completely uncouth and rude, who wear rebel flags and overalls all the time while driving too fast in their pickups while screaming "GIT ER DUN" at the top of their lungs. These people are disliked just as much and get just as few opportunities in life as "thugs," but nobody considers it racism."

What the fuck are you talking about?

2/12/2007 3:36:52 PM

I'm saying that they have just as few opportunities, but nobody considers it racist.

What does it look like.

[Edited on February 12, 2007 at 3:38 PM. Reason : it was more of an addition to my first post than a response to yours.]

2/12/2007 3:37:38 PM

I see what you're trying to say, but I gotta disagree.

Let's say the white middle-class kid, Junior, gets in a fight in school...there's a chance it won't even be automatically reported to the police, like it is for most black kids. But let's say he's caught with drugs and it is reported to the police, his parents can pay for a lawyer and get him off so he doesn't start out life with a record. And they can keep paying for lawyers and getting him off three, four times until he "learns his lesson" and he still won't have a record. Cause he's white and his parents have money to afford a lawyer.

Let's assume Junior also makes straight D/F's in high school...no problem. He can go to community college and his parents will pay for it. Shoot, maybe they'll even get him a little apartment, and he just has to jump from job to job getting fired and affording his pot/booze habit. Or maybe he'll stay at home, and they'll continue to give him an allowance. Then this white middle-class kid decides college isn't for him...no problem. Junior's dad can help him find a decent job while he "finds himself." And then another job after he gets fired from the first. And perhaps another. Until finally Mom and Dad cut him off, and Junior realizes he doesn't want to be urban after all, goes back to school on Mom and Dad's dime, gets a degree, and becomes the top salesmen at his dad's used car dealership...

Poor black kid doesn't have any of those luxuries. And that's why this thread is stupid.

[Edited on February 12, 2007 at 3:52 PM. Reason : sss]

2/12/2007 3:39:13 PM

Quote :

"I'm saying that they have just as few opportunities, but nobody considers it racist."

Considers what racist? Assuming that they don't have opportunities?

You aren't making your point effectively at all here.

2/12/2007 3:41:43 PM

I don't think someone who's dad owns a car dealership is "middle class"

2/12/2007 3:42:16 PM

I think it is. But I'll alter that bit for you.

2/12/2007 3:43:43 PM

However, most of these opportunities are given to this kid because his parents have the means, not because he is white.

The same thing would happen with a black kid who's dad owns a dealership.

2/12/2007 3:45:58 PM

I agree with that last statement

2/12/2007 3:48:05 PM

Quote :

"Let's say the white middle-class kid, Junior, gets in a fight in school...there's a chance it won't even be automatically reported to the police, like it is for most black kids. But let's say he's caught with drugs and it is reported to the police, his parents can pay for a lawyer and get him off so he doesn't start out life with a record. And they can keep paying for lawyers and getting him off three, four times until he "learns his lesson" and he still won't have a record. Cause he's white and his parents have money to afford a lawyer. Let's assume Junior also makes straight D/F's in high school...no problem. He can go to community college and his parents will pay for it. Shoot, maybe they'll even get him a little apartment, and he just has to jump from job to job getting fired and affording his pot/booze habit. Or maybe he'll stay at home, and they'll continue to give him an allowance. Then this white middle-class kid decides college isn't for him...no problem. Junior's dad can help him find a decent job while he "finds himself." And then another job after he gets fired from the first. And perhaps another. Until finally Mom and Dad cut him off, and Junior realizes he doesn't want to be urban after all, goes back to school on Mom and Dad's dime, gets his business degree, and becomes the top salesmen at his dad's car dealership... Poor black kid doesn't have any of those luxuries. And that's why this thread is stupid."

Why couldn't the same be true for a middle class black kid?

Poor white kid doesn't have those luxuries either.

RACE IS NOT THE SAME AS ECONOMIC STATUS.

2/12/2007 3:49:32 PM

This thread was prefaced with the black kid being poor and the white kid being middle-class.

Either way, we all know that white people dominate GOJF cards and nepotic job opportunities.

(If y'all are unwilling to concede the GOJF and nepotism, I see no point in arguing with you.)

[Edited on February 12, 2007 at 4:00 PM. Reason : sss]

2/12/2007 3:58:06 PM

It still is more of a class issue than race

2/12/2007 4:00:38 PM

I'd say it's more race than class.

Starting with high school when black kids fighting in the halls are a criminal element who get reported to the police and arrested, and white kids fighting in the halls are just boys being boys who get suspended for two days.

[Edited on February 12, 2007 at 4:04 PM. Reason : Clearer.]

2/12/2007 4:03:28 PM

because race is a completely fictitious social construct and needs to be abolished

2/12/2007 4:04:25 PM

I will concede that white people are currently better off for the most part than black people.

But it isn't because of any current institutionalized racism (i.e. "the man").

2/12/2007 4:05:12 PM

^^Not this shit again.

Good luck "abolishing" race. About the closest you can get is a colorblind government, but that would put an end to all those programs like affirmative action designed to help blacks.

[Edited on February 12, 2007 at 4:06 PM. Reason : 2]

2/12/2007 4:05:55 PM

I've seen many more white people arrested in schools than blacks... mostly because the white kids were the morons that forgot to take their guns out of their cars.

and for the record I went to a very predominantly black high school

maybe I got lucky but fighting was never a huge deal unless a weapon was involved.


^ oh I absolutely agree .. but it doesn't make that statement any less correct



[Edited on February 12, 2007 at 4:07 PM. Reason : V Exactly.]

2/12/2007 4:06:48 PM

Quote :

"Starting with high school when black kids fighting in the halls are a criminal element who get reported to the police and arrested, and white kids fighting in the halls are just boys being boys who get suspended for two days."

Anecdotal.

I could start throwing out stories about white kids going to jail over stupid shit too. It doesn't mean that it proves anything.

2/12/2007 4:06:51 PM

^^^^I don't believe in the man, but I believe in society.

Our real estate and banking industries are still discriminating.

And the public education and criminal justice systems really aren't helping too much either.

^I refuse to look up stats for you.

(Fuck, I know I'm probably gonna end up doing it anyway.)

Okay, no, I'm not going to do this with all you fuckers again.

I will create a book list for you, and if you are genuinely interested, you can check the shit out yourself.

[Edited on February 12, 2007 at 4:14 PM. Reason : Just saw how many of you fuckers came at me at once. Not responding to all that shit.]

2/12/2007 4:08:37 PM

Quote :

"And the public education and criminal justice systems really aren't helping too much either. "

an excuse. people make their own paths.

2/12/2007 4:09:48 PM

^Some people have easier times of making their paths than others.

Get that trite bullshit out of here.

2/12/2007 4:15:59 PM

There was that black kid in georgia who was trying to "act white" by getting his knob polished by a white girl, and look how that worked out for him.

2/12/2007 4:16:14 PM

woah, i swear we just had this thread

[Edited on February 12, 2007 at 4:28 PM. Reason : typo, fuck it]

2/12/2007 4:17:05 PM

People will always identify other people by the first thing they notice about them; race just happens to be one of those things.

2/12/2007 4:18:18 PM

Quote :

"woah, i swear we just had this thread we've had this thread a thousand times already"

2/12/2007 4:20:27 PM

Quote :

"Not responding to all that shit."

Respond to what - a fictitious story and an anecdote?

2/12/2007 4:32:01 PM

Quote :

"One where he is loud and obnoxious, disregards education, is involved in crime from a early age, etc."

this behavior isn't inherently confined to one race in particular.

It's more important to not act like a damn jackass......no matter what your race.

2/12/2007 4:38:20 PM

Quote :

"And the public education and criminal justice systems really aren't helping too much either"

Quote :

"an excuse. people make their own paths."

To an extent. The set up of public education currently limits the transfer of funds from better off districts to poorer ones, thus the cycle feeds on itself. Poor kids go to poor schools, get a poor education, that gets poor jobs that won't support better education systems. I've worked with people in the Army who were very intelligent but it was obvious that their educational system had utterly failed them.

Still, I agree with everyone who says its more class than race. While the two are entertwined, they are not inseperable. Blacks currently dominate the underclass, but current trends in wealth distribution threaten to slowly place more and more whites with them.

[Edited on February 12, 2007 at 5:10 PM. Reason : .]

2/12/2007 5:09:15 PM

^^^Respond to the argument the fictional and non-fictional stories represent. (I also thought Prawn Star was talking at me, too.)

Without having to do any work of my own, I can point out one thing that should have caught your eye...

I always mention real estate, banking, education, and justice. In this thread, ssclark takes fault with my mention of the public education and criminal justice systems. He didn't comment on my references to real estate and banking because he knows those industries continue to incur fines and penalties for documented discrimination.

Now, am I really expected to believe that discrimination and racism are attributed exclusively to the real estate and banking industries? That somehow we've eradicated racism from the rest of society, including our criminal justice and public education systems, and that the only instance in which a black person can expect to endure racism and discrimination is when trying to buy a home or get a loan?

[Edited on February 12, 2007 at 5:20 PM. Reason : sss]

2/12/2007 5:15:16 PM

Quote :

"Our real estate and banking industries are still discriminating"

and if I do practice such an act I lose my real estate license forever, not to mention have my reputation in a profitable industry ruined... no thanks

and fighting in high school was an automatic 10 days when I was in high school, it was enforced on the crackers too

2/12/2007 5:26:49 PM

Quote :

"and if I do practice such an act I lose my real estate license forever, not to mention have my reputation in a profitable industry ruined... no thanks"

Most places just pay a fine and have to take classes on doing better next time. Many times, there's a settlement involved, too.

My concern here is that someone has to file a complaint for anything to be done. They barely monitor real estate agents and agencies for compliance with the law. If someone is discriminated against, but they feel like they can't prove it, and they don't want to deal with the hassle, then nothing gets done about the situation. And the real esate agencies go on, business as usual.

2/12/2007 7:04:36 PM

Quote :

"My concern here is that someone has to file a complaint for anything to be done. They barely monitor real estate agents and agencies for compliance with the law. If someone is discriminated against, but they feel like they can't prove it, and they don't want to deal with the hassle, then nothing gets done about the situation. "

2/12/2007 7:16:34 PM

Quote :

"Respond to the argument the fictional and non-fictional stories represent."

Arguments tend to be stronger when you support them with figures rather than with fictional anecdotes concocted to convey your own unsubstantiated generalizations.

2/12/2007 7:46:54 PM

^When I said fictional and non-fictional stores, I was referring to what you said about your fictitious story and ssclark's anecdote:

Quote :

"Mr. Joshua: Respond to what - a fictitious story and an anecdote?"

I understand that you're uninterested in my anecdotes. And I posted this in response to your fictitious story and ssclark's anecdote:

Quote :

"BridgetSPK: Without having to do any work of my own, I can point out one thing that should have caught your eye... I always mention real estate, banking, education, and justice. In this thread, ssclark takes fault with my mention of the public education and criminal justice systems. He didn't comment on my references to real estate and banking because he knows those industries continue to incur fines and penalties for documented discrimination. Now, am I really expected to believe that discrimination and racism are attributed exclusively to the real estate and banking industries? That somehow we've eradicated racism from the rest of society, including our criminal justice and public education systems, and that the only instance in which a black person can expect to endure racism and discrimination is when trying to buy a home or get a loan?"

2/12/2007 8:09:01 PM

Quote :

"He didn't comment on my references to real estate and banking because he knows those industries continue to incur fines and penalties for documented discrimination. "

I didnt comment on those because you're probably right, I'm sure there's rampant discrimination in areas such as loaning money and real estate.


so yes i didn't say you're wrong because I don't think you are, in that regard.




to get back to being controversial.

I disagree that the public education system and criminal justice system persecutes blacks because it's there decision. You say, well there's a cycle created by poor schools not getting the funding they need, and there for becoming even more poor etc. But the fact is books exist even in poor schools. Worse case scenario, children wanting to get ahead in poor neighborhoods have to take it on themselves to get out.

As far as the prison system goes ... don't fucking commit crimes. It's that simple. If you stay away from shit that puts you in jail you wont be persecuted by the prison system. Simple as that.


call me elitist, call me superior, call me whatever the fuck you want. Where there's a will there's a way, make your own fucking way out. People do it everyday, fuck maybe you'll get a movie made about you.

[Edited on February 12, 2007 at 8:26 PM. Reason : .]

2/12/2007 8:17:09 PM

^^ So now our credit system is racist too? Do you have any idea how loans are determined in the banking/real estate industries? Money is green no matter who the source might be.

2/12/2007 8:22:25 PM

^^But you think that discrimination is contained in those environments? It doesn't spill out anywhere else? How can it be contained like that?

^Are you seriously a lawyer/attorney?

[Edited on February 12, 2007 at 8:26 PM. Reason : ?]

2/12/2007 8:26:16 PM

no I dont think it's contained, I was just commenting on the situations you proposed. either way class is a bigger factor than race in these scenario's

[Edited on February 12, 2007 at 8:54 PM. Reason : /]

2/12/2007 8:27:54 PM

^^ Never said I was an attorney, but as somebody who worked in banking I think you're a fucking idiot. I don't give a shit about a case here or there, you obviously have no working concept of how loans work, no matter how hard you try to be some kind of pseudo social scientist.

Your tired but predictable responses to any and everybody who disagrees with you further establishes the fact that you will never fool anybody into thinking that you're some great and thoughtful intellect or the white savioress of the ever downtrodden black man, that despite your contrarian anecdotes and fictional stories, has made great strides in our society, and all without your help.

[Edited on February 12, 2007 at 8:36 PM. Reason : more]

2/12/2007 8:28:45 PM

When did I tell a fictitious story?

Quote :

"That somehow we've eradicated racism from the rest of society, including our criminal justice and public education systems, and that the only instance in which a black person can expect to endure racism and discrimination is when trying to buy a home or get a loan?"

So black people should be prepared to be called a nigger and taken to a house in a black neighborhood every time they attempt to buy a home?

Racism does exist, but you're painting it as an all invasive plague that has made it impossible for black people to accomplish anything in life. The simple fact is that a person is much more likely to be denied a bank loan if they don't have a job, have bad credit, and appear to be a dumbass who won't repay the bank, regardless of color - this is the central argument of this thread.

Quote :

"He didn't comment on my references to real estate and banking because he knows those industries continue to incur fines and penalties for documented discrimination."

The Fair Housing Act of 1968 creates fines for all types of discrimination: race, color, religion, sex, national origin, familial status, and disability. I could just as easily argue that the law still exists and prohibits discrimination based on national origin, therefor it is obvious that canadian born citizens can't be expected to accomplish anything because the government recognizes that they are discriminated against. Prove me wrong.

[Edited on February 12, 2007 at 8:34 PM. Reason : To be fair, I know as many black realtors as white ones.]

2/12/2007 8:31:48 PM

there is plenty of racism around today, but that doesnt make plenty of these arguments based heavily on class, not race.

crime rates, school dropouts, etc are nearly identical for both urban whites and blacks. sure some things (like getting easier loans) can lead towards other issues, but they arent solely responsible for them.

2/12/2007 8:36:01 PM

Quote :

"will be more likely to succeed and be accepted than a middle class white kid who conforms more to a stereotypical "urban black" cultural norm. One where he is loud and obnoxious, disregards education, is involved in crime from a early age, etc."

i didn't read the rest of the posts, but...

DUH.

[Edited on February 12, 2007 at 8:40 PM. Reason : ]

2/12/2007 8:39:42 PM

Quote :

"I will create a book list for you, and if you are genuinely interested, you can check the shit out yourself."

Wow, you read some books! How could I ever question your academic prowess?

2/12/2007 8:39:53 PM

First off we gotta get this "fictitious story" nonsense worked out:

Quote :

"ssclark: I've seen many more white people arrested in schools than blacks... mostly because the white kids were the morons that forgot to take their guns out of their cars. and for the record I went to a very predominantly black high school maybe I got lucky but fighting was never a huge deal unless a weapon was involved."

Quote :

"Mr. Joshua: I could start throwing out stories about white kids going to jail over stupid shit too. It doesn't mean that it proves anything."

Quote :

"BridgetSPK: Just saw how many of you fuckers came at me at once. Not responding to all that shit."

Quote :

"Mr. Joshua: Respond to what - a fictitious story and an anecdote?"

Okay, here is apparently the disconnect...I said I wasn't gonna respond, and you said "respond to what - a fictitious story and an anecdote?" I assumed you were referring to ssclark's anecdote and your "throwing out stories about white kids..."

Are we clear?

2/12/2007 8:53:40 PM