I brought up the whole D. Dix debate in the Soap Box and what to do with that land since the Hospital has closed down. And during that debate Sputter lent this great idea to the conversation...

Quote :

"I know this will get laughed out of soap box, but I really wish that we could get a pro-baseball team in Raleigh and that they would build the park on that land"

So my question to the Sports Talk section is this: What would it take to land a MLB team in Raleigh if we could use all 306 acres of the old Dix site? Could Raleigh land it? And most importantly which team could Raleigh steal away?

Discuss.

2/19/2007 2:51:44 PM

Not a bad idea. But I just don't see a baseball team coming to Raleigh with teams in ATL, DC and Baltimore.

2/19/2007 2:54:07 PM

Could take the Devil Rays or the Marlins.

However, I dont think Raleigh would adequately support a pro baseball team.

2/19/2007 2:54:24 PM

Cities that fund vast majority of pro sports stadiums/teams lose money hand over fist. IMO, a MLB park on the Dix property is a complete waste of resources. I'm completely against public financing for pro sports of any sort. If you and your partners want to finance a park privately, more power to you.

2/19/2007 2:54:40 PM

people have talked about a team in going to alamance county, b/c of its proximty to lots of big cities, and nobody wants to see everything in charlotte. but it takes to much money, you have to have a stadium built before you can get a guarentee, and nobody wants to risk that much money

2/19/2007 2:56:38 PM

a team in burlington would be a joke. I know it makes sense on a map, but just no. A team in Raleigh would do much better than people think.

2/19/2007 2:58:06 PM

why would you want to fuck up the most valuable property in raliegh with a fucking baseball stadium?

it doesnt matter, its going to get developed into some bullshit anyways when it should be a city park

[Edited on February 19, 2007 at 2:58 PM. Reason : oh, and its "guarantee "]

2/19/2007 2:58:11 PM

^okay politics aside. how would this idea pan out?

And i dont buy the whole Raleigh cannot support a MLB. Thats what the said about the Hurricanes 10 years ago.

Johnny - I didn't mention sole public financing ala Marlins owners. however that is something that is always brought up and demanded. If we could get around that, would it not work?

[Edited on February 19, 2007 at 3:03 PM. Reason : more]

2/19/2007 3:02:03 PM

Quote :

"why would you want to fuck up the most valuable property in raliegh with a fucking baseball stadium?"

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Baseball stadiums sit on some of the most valuable property in a lot of cities. They are, in some cases, the centerpiece in a revitalization of an entire neighborhood. Just using a few examples, Gateway Center in Cleveland, Inner Harbor in Baltimore, Embarcadero in San Francisco, and the new south Anacostia in D.C.

You might not like baseball but that doesn't mean you should ignore the many positives a stadium (which is used 80+ times a year unlike any other major sport) brings. Baseball adds more revenue to a city, BY FAR, than any other sport in the country.

As far as Raleigh being able to support a team. I don't think it could. Nor could Charlotte. I remember a study being posted on here that related population, per capita income, and # of professional franchises that could be supported. Charlotte was at ~2.2 and Raleigh ~1.5 IIRC. Baseball just wouldn't work in NC. Even if it could I don't think that is the best place for a stadium. I think for it to be succesful you would need to build it in a more dense commercial area. Besides the obvious complete lack of infrastructure that wouldn't be the best area to maximize revenues for the city/state.


[Edited on February 19, 2007 at 3:08 PM. Reason : x]

[Edited on February 19, 2007 at 3:16 PM. Reason : costia not condia in D.C.]

2/19/2007 3:06:21 PM

^ pretty much sums up everything. From taking bunch of sports finance/other related classes during my masters, I just don't see Raleigh being able to support a MLB francise, no matter where it's built. How many times do you think a 2pm game on a Tuesday is going to come close to selling out.

I have nothing against baseball, or pro sports in general. I do have a huge problem with the public getting sucked into these never-ending ponzi schemes of publicly-financed stadia.

See also:Google server farm in the middle of BFE for 300 + million dollars.

2/19/2007 3:12:52 PM

I love MLB and I'm a HUGE Braves fan, I also go to DC a lot during the year so I usually end up going to a few Nats games, and I go to a lot of Bulls games a year. I'd end up going to more Bulls games a year than I would an area MLB team anyways. So I don't see a need nor would I really help support a MLB team here.

2/19/2007 3:17:20 PM

Public Policy 101: from the government's standpoint, a stadium/sports team/whatever is only as valuable as the tax dollars it brings in that it otherwise wouldn't. That is, you have to be able to pull from areas outside of your jurisdictions. Otherwise you're just spending taxpayers' money to collect taxpayers' money. That's a waste. I highly, highly doubt the cost of capital investment will be worth pulling in people from the "Greater Raleigh Metropolitian Area"... if there is such a thing. Just how many people'd come in from out of town to watch Raleigh baseball?

And nobody try and tell me this'll happen without government investment.

Reading the above posts, yeah, this idea has already been more eloquently expressed anyway.

[Edited on February 19, 2007 at 3:22 PM. Reason : .]

2/19/2007 3:20:48 PM

maybe a smaller stadium supporting a minor league team? we can have a fun little rivalry with the Durham Bulls.

2/19/2007 3:22:46 PM

That'd just piss off Durham, and would probably be worse off for both of them.

2/19/2007 3:23:48 PM

The Bulls own territorial rights in Raleigh, which is why the Mudcats are in bumfuck and not within the Raleigh city limits. I highly doubt they would allow Raleigh to make their own downtown stadium to compete.

For the majority of residents in this area (read Cary) Durham is closer than the Mudcats are.

[Edited on February 19, 2007 at 3:24 PM. Reason : plus a minor league stadium shouldn't be built on that property as it would bring in NO revenue]

2/19/2007 3:23:57 PM

how about a small zoo?

2/19/2007 3:25:37 PM

I got it, dedicate the land to a high density rail line that goes from here to Durham! Think of the usage!

2/19/2007 3:26:28 PM

cvfgfgsdg

[Edited on February 19, 2007 at 3:31 PM. Reason : nevermind]

2/19/2007 3:28:03 PM

Quote :

"Even if it could I don't think that is the best place for a stadium. I think for it to be succesful you would need to build it in a more dense commercial area. Besides the obvious complete lack of infrastructure that wouldn't be the best area to maximize revenues for the city/state."

As much I think it could happen, this would be its nail in the coffin. The infrastructure in that part of Raleigh could not support 48,000 fans commuting to the staduim 80 nights a week. Western would have to be expanded. Downtown would need direct walkways to the stadium.
However throw in rail and BRTs and maybe you could pull it off.

Quote :

"I have nothing against baseball, or pro sports in general. I do have a huge problem with the public getting sucked into these never-ending ponzi schemes of publicly-financed stadia."

I hear ya. Thats the issue too. NC legislatures love getting the short stick to the people on shit like this too. I would require at minimum the Team to pay 45%. Unless its the Marlins in which they only have 7 pennies and 3 gringos from Cuba.

Quote :

"As far as Raleigh being able to support a team. I don't think it could. Nor could Charlotte. I remember a study being posted on here that related population, per capita income, and # of professional franchises that could be supported. Charlotte was at ~2.2 and Raleigh ~1.5 IIRC."

Panthers and Hurricanes. And i will beat that like a dead horse. In 15 years no one else will be pulling for out of state teams at NC's rate of increasing population and childbirth. And then you'll have your fanbase.

Sure both teams have won championships of some sort, and that helped their survival rate. But in the years since the Panthers' Super Bowl appearance, crowds havent lagged. And in the "dark" years between Stanley Cup showings, the Canes sure as hell havent been losing revenue. yet.

Quote :

"Public Policy 101: from the government's standpoint, a stadium/sports team/whatever is only as valuable as the tax dollars it brings in that it otherwise wouldn't. That is, you have to be able to pull from areas outside of your jurisdictions."

Raleigh-Durham is part of an MSA and its only going to grow over the next 20 years. I think a MLB team would pull in plently of people from even Greensboro and Greensville. Hell we go to Durham for games right? Charlotte for games too, right?

I think a massive city park and a Camden Yards-esk stadium would be a good fit.

And I promise I'm not as apeshit for this idea as I sound, but I also don't think its that far fetched.

2/19/2007 3:48:56 PM

Is there ANY chance this shit could actually happen? I would love it.

2/19/2007 3:50:23 PM

^ No.

Quote :

"I dont think Raleigh would adequately support a pro baseball team."

2/19/2007 3:54:07 PM

Did you think NC could support a freakin Hockey team? NC is baseball country, like it or not.

2/19/2007 3:55:14 PM

^an NHL team plays less home games in a much smaller venue. Plus it took years for hockey to gain acceptance down here (and several playoff wins).

I wonder if an MLB team would be doable if it were closer to Durham? Maybe somewhere near the airport?

2/19/2007 4:02:33 PM

maaaaan, fuck baseball.

2/19/2007 4:06:35 PM

The hurricanes havent made a dime since they have been here minus the playoffs and cup finals from last year, they actually lost money

Raleigh could not support two teams like that and even though MLB would be the ideal answer, it wont happen


wont happen

2/19/2007 4:14:35 PM

You know its only been 10 years since the Hurricanes came down from Hartford.

And yes it only seats 18,000+ people. So there is a point there to if ticket sales could keep a team afloat.

2/19/2007 4:14:42 PM

Charlotte would be a better city over Raleigh, but that still doesn't mean NC could support an MLB team. I would love it, but don't see it happening.

2/19/2007 4:16:42 PM

if people barely go to the bulls games, you really think they'd fill up a mlb stadium? not to mention, there are enough empty stadiums across the country as it is. i don't think mlb would want to add another dust bowl.

2/19/2007 4:20:37 PM

i dont think raleigh, nor charlotte, could support a team, but charlotte would be a more logical choice. there is actually a lot of talk now to move the knights out of fort mill into a new park near the south end in charlotte. it would be built so it could be expanded if baseball did decide to come sometime in the future. also, pat mccrory, charlotte mayor, said charlotte could not support a professional team at this time (the marlins wanted to talk to them about a possible relocation).

2/19/2007 4:21:16 PM

This brings up a good discussion....what would be some good cities for MLB to expand in?

It would be neat to see a team in Puerto Rico or something.

2/19/2007 4:22:49 PM

i think a baseball team could eventually be supported by the raleigh and surronding area population. instead of putting a stadium on the dix campus though, i would like to see that preserved. i think the best place for a new stadium would be to take up a few blocks in the dilapidated part of downtown that is just southeast of the city (hammond rd/garner rd area). this would go along with the idea that a stadium would bring revitilazation.

now if we could just get rid of that cargill plant that distorts the view of the city from the south, we'd be golden.

2/19/2007 4:23:17 PM

Quote :

"what would be some good cities for MLB to expand in?"

expand to? none. 30 teams is perfect.

relocate? I'd say Las Vegas, Portland, or Vancouver.

2/19/2007 4:28:28 PM

^^^ That is the most retarded idea I have heard yet. Puerto Rico? NO

Raleigh will get a team before Puerto Rico. They have some spring games down there, and yes, there is a lot of baseball talent down there, but there will never be a MLB team in PR.

As for Raleigh, the Dix site would be good, but I think that it is a historic land site, and if so there might be complications with what they use the land for. Plus, would the people of Raleigh support a MLB team? Makes me wonder what the Durham Bulls and Mudcats attendance numbers are like.

[Edited on February 19, 2007 at 4:32 PM. Reason : ^]

2/19/2007 4:32:26 PM

the Raleigh Dix

2/19/2007 4:48:20 PM

^with a snapshot of everyone who posts in Chit Chat.

Quote :

"i think the best place for a new stadium would be to take up a few blocks in the dilapidated part of downtown that is just southeast of the city (hammond rd/garner rd area). this would go along with the idea that a stadium would bring revitilazation. now if we could just get rid of that cargill plant that distorts the view of the city from the south, we'd be golden."

good call. kudos for that lookout on hammond rd.

2/19/2007 4:53:37 PM

man if tampa moved there would be a lot of supoort from all the yankee and redsocks fans going to the game who live down here a lot

2/19/2007 4:57:19 PM

we should name the baseball stadium after Everett Case

2/19/2007 5:05:13 PM

who??

more like Clay Aiken Field hahahah, thats what raleigh is known for everywhere elwse

2/19/2007 5:09:44 PM

Quote :

"who?? "

my point exactly.


(it's in reference to another thread)


ok, so anyways, i'd never root for them unless they were NL... and with the Nats and the Braves, they'd probably be an AL team. So to hell with that, I'm an O's fan for life.

it won't happen anytime soon, but it's fun to think about.


Dorothy Dix should be used for... hell i dunno, let them film movies there over the next few years, and then decide what to do with it. I'm all for a park, but it will probably be developed into another strip mall. Can't get enough of that chinese food that all tastes the same.

2/19/2007 5:19:05 PM

Quote :

"How many times do you think a 2pm game on a Tuesday is going to come close to selling out."

exactly. no way raleigh could support a baseball team. i wouldn't mind a minor league park in downtown like gboro has, though. that'd be hot.

2/19/2007 6:49:11 PM

Quote :

"I dont think Raleigh would adequately support a pro baseball team."

I don't either... I've never been to a Bulls game but it seemed like they do ok, why would we need another team?

2/19/2007 7:02:51 PM

Quote :

"And i dont buy the whole Raleigh cannot support a MLB. Thats what the said about the Hurricanes 10 years ago."

I didn't read anything after you made this statement, so maybe it was answered. But didn't the Hurricanes just barely make break even/make a profit last year for the first time since they have been down here? That doesn't really sound like "supporting" to me, especially since I'm sure they won't profit this year.

2/19/2007 7:28:59 PM

We need to relocate a team here, name them the durham bulls, and build up the stadium.


the bulls already have the history and recongnition.

Easiest way to make it work. And another thing with baseball, as discussed in the previous thread on this subject...


the team wouldnt even have to make money to be sucessful with revenue sharing. It could definitly work

2/19/2007 7:40:04 PM

Quote :

"the team wouldnt even have to make money to be sucessful with revenue sharing. It could definitly work"

the thing is, there's no people in raleigh to go fill a 40k+ stadium in the daytime during the week. that's what you have to have for baseball, and we just don't have it. we can't even fill the 18k rbc for the hurricanes at night on a weekend.

like i said, a stadium like the one in gboro would be baller. i've never been but pictures i've seen make it look awesome, and it'd be real nice to have baseball downtown, it's a great atmosphere.

[Edited on February 19, 2007 at 7:48 PM. Reason : minors ftw]

2/19/2007 7:45:42 PM

i'd be willin to bet there aren't many MLB teams who draw 40K for day games.

2/19/2007 8:02:09 PM

^ true. teams like the cubs, the yankees, and the dodgers draw well for afternoon weekday games, but look at the cities they're in. But teams like Pittsburgh and Tampa Bay don't draw too bad on weekday games.

^^ yes, First Horizion Park is awesome especially for night games. Not a bad seat in the house and tickets are cheap. Not to mention thirsty thursdays. It would be cool if Raleigh got a single-a minor league team and build a similar stadium.

2/19/2007 8:11:52 PM

especially the Clay Aiken Aches hahahha

hospital = ache


HAHAHA

2/19/2007 8:13:19 PM

Raleigh can't support an mlb team now but its almost inevitable that in 10 years there will be HIGH demand for one. theres no teams east of the hurricanes and most of nc is growing like crazy (especially the triangle).

With that said, don't put a stadium there because there needs to be more "downtown" before we go adding stuff and for gods sake DONT MAKE IT A PARK

Please put something there that will bring economic boost to downtown. I'm all for a cluster of highrise office buildings/condos with bars restaruants and stores at the bottom. build it and they will come. government aided if you have to.

lol If it was up to me I'd pull up the fact that indians were there 700 years ago, make that baby a reservation and cover that sucker in casino hotels. Then baseball teams would come calling for sure.




vegas will be the next place all the pro teams go. they are the only area growing faster than nc.

2/19/2007 8:28:08 PM

Quote :

"Raleigh-Durham is part of an MSA and its only going to grow over the next 20 years."

They actually split us up in 2005. Raleigh-Cary MSA and Chapel Hill-Durham MSA

How about demoting the Devil Rays to AAA, promote the Bulls to MLB

2/19/2007 9:05:55 PM

No MLB team is going to put a professional sports team here. It would kill all the minor league teams around. Raleigh isn't big enough to support that kinda sport. We have a hard enough time to support the Hurricanes unless they are in the stanly cup finals. Raleigh might be growing but it is not large enough yet for a major league football, basketball, or baseball team.

2/20/2007 8:20:22 AM