for using a neighbor's wireless internet connection? I live near a funeral home, and I can pick up their wireless connection from my house about 150 feet away. Could any shit happen because of this?

2/19/2007 4:10:30 PM

They could ask you to stop....


OH SNAP!!!

2/19/2007 4:11:56 PM

Yes, there have been a few people who have been prosecuted for this before. Though it should be legal because the people who leave their net open like that are morons. QED

2/19/2007 4:12:00 PM

someone in singapore was sent to jail for it recently

but that's singapore, and they are certifiably absurd in the realm of law


but technically, it is illegal.


(but thousands do it every day)

2/19/2007 4:13:19 PM

At the school I work at we have an open internet connection and a 5th grade kid brought a PSP to the school so he could download porn for free and watch it in the bathroom. He got in big shit for this one.

2/19/2007 4:16:18 PM

hahah thats pretty awesome

2/19/2007 4:25:48 PM

i thought it was only illegal if it was a secured network, otherwise how am i to know if something is a local wifi spot or if i am going to get in trouble

2/19/2007 4:37:51 PM

^^^^

yeah, you're talking about a country where gum is illegal

2/19/2007 4:41:26 PM

^^

"ignorance of the law is no excuse."

2/19/2007 4:47:16 PM

thats not ignorance of the law... its ignorance of what network his laptop decided to use.

basically i'm with him because although i have my own connection is certain parts of my apt my devices will auto connect to the unsecured network my neighbors have because their signal is stronger

[Edited on February 19, 2007 at 4:57 PM. Reason : .]

2/19/2007 4:55:44 PM

I've always been curios about this ... somebody point me to a law rather than speculation. I've always thought it depended on the individual polices of that wireless network provider ... if its an individual, "I don't give a shit" or "Get the fuck off my network" would be both legit policies IMHO ...

2/19/2007 5:01:45 PM

I am not sure this has been tested yet in a court of law...

In the past, I think there had to be an indication that the network is private...ie banners, username/pass, etc.

I could be wrong...

2/19/2007 5:04:05 PM

in a related issue, how could they prove it was ApostleNC downloading illegal torrents instead of someone at the funeral home (i realize he didn't say anything about illegal torrents, but it's a hypothetical situation )?

essentially, it seems to me that you cannot be expected to know it's their wireless network...if you know for sure that it is, it would seem to me that what you're doing is essentially 1.) trespassing and 2.) stealing internet, as you didn't pay for it

i'm sure they COULD prove you were using it, but it's not gonna happen...don't worry about it

[Edited on February 19, 2007 at 5:06 PM. Reason : .]

2/19/2007 5:05:42 PM

i think the only way they could catch you is if they caught you in the act and/or via your machine's MAC address, which is in the TCP/IP header of all the internet packets.

if you kept it on the downlow, i dont know if they'd ever know or care. since they cant figure out how to enable WEP or WPA, i doubt they're going to do much analysis on their net traffic.

that said, if you bog down their connection during business hours they may become interested real quick.

and i wouldn't do anything of a personal nature, since all your data is open.

2/19/2007 5:13:27 PM

Quote :

"your machine's MAC address, which is in the TCP/IP header of all the internet packets."

MAC address is not in the tcp/ip header, its in the Ethernet header (L2)
MAC address gets rewritten at first L3 hop (or more accurately, de-encapsulated and re-encapsulated with the appropriate L2 headers)

this makes a big difference in tracking or tracing locations, especially with a WAP doing NAT

2/19/2007 5:16:31 PM

if it were me, i'd go into their router's menu and change all the settings.

you know, enable passwords and stuff so only you can access it.

any time they reset it, do it again.

2/19/2007 5:17:48 PM

Quote :

" your machine's MAC address, which is in the TCP/IP header of all the internet packets"

Ok, I hate being that guy, but the MAC address is not part of the TCP or IP header, and is found in the layer 2 header (hence 'MAC' address), depending on what data link mechanism is being used.

2/19/2007 5:18:06 PM

^^^, ^ : yeah, you guys got me.

I've got hardcopies of RFC 791 and 793 sitting right beside me, but i was just trying to make a general point: his MAC can be traced.


thanks for the correction tho.



[Edited on February 19, 2007 at 5:24 PM. Reason : ]

2/19/2007 5:20:04 PM

Quote :

"if it were me, i'd go into their router's menu and change all the settings. you know, enable passwords and stuff so only you can access it. any time they reset it, do it again."

i do this all the time

2/19/2007 5:36:20 PM

reminds me, when i used to work next door to a funeral home.

we didnt get any free wireless

but when they cremated bodies in their crematorium, we got to smell the exhaust.

about once a week.

2/19/2007 7:30:49 PM

If these people don't have the wherewithall to throw even a WEP encryption on their network... they aren't going to be able to detect your use of their network and find out who you are.

Still, it's kinda ragged that you're stealing internet without their permission.

2/20/2007 9:25:09 AM

If they are dumb enough to leave it unprotected they are probably too dumb to realize you are using it. Unless you are downloading a crap-load of stuff and it slows their connection down to a crawl.

2/20/2007 9:43:40 AM

Quote :

"you're stealing internet without their permission"

oh noes. he stole my internetz.

man thats one that deserves its own photoshop.

2/20/2007 10:46:13 AM

i park in front of hotels to use their internets when i have to

i always think someone is going to come outside and give me what for

2/20/2007 10:53:07 AM

1) most people who have a wireless router don't know shit about it.
2) most people who have a wireless router will never know you are there
3) those that do will simple notice you, and block you.
4) you won't be taking to prison.

2/20/2007 10:56:24 AM

you can never get in trouble for anything

2/20/2007 10:58:44 AM

^^^ yea, i do the same. if need to use the internet for anything while driving i'll just hop in front of a hotel and VPN my browsing.

2/20/2007 11:10:17 AM

Technically it is illegal since its piracy. You're stealing someone else's service that they paid for, their bandwidth, and lost revenue for the service provider.

If you can get a decent signal from 150ft, I'd probably use it too. Most home based wireless routers that I've played with don't really get that good coverage and usually have poor signal quality at about 100-150ft after going through one or two walls. I also get wireless signals from my neighbors, about 8 different networks (I have two) and its amazing how most of them are not secure. I actually know the ppl so I ring their door, tell them their problem, fix it and they give me some food or cash. I'm such a good neighbor

2/20/2007 11:21:23 AM

if it's wide open, it's not "piracy," nor is it illegal.

2/20/2007 11:29:55 AM

you're still taking bandwidth from someone's business that paid for that service. I really think it'll be on the business for not securing their network, but still... ISP's do not like network sharing and they can give you fines for that, if not other legal actions, only if reported (and its very very rare).

safe for 99.99999% of the time, but if you connect to their network, they could monitor your computer and access your unsecured network shared files.

2/20/2007 11:34:19 AM

Couldn't it be some sort of trespassing?
Just because there's no fence around their property doesn't mean you can go in there and shit on the lawn.

2/20/2007 11:36:08 AM

doubleposting crap!

[Edited on February 20, 2007 at 11:38 AM. Reason : !]

2/20/2007 11:37:57 AM

^^^^ Not true. It's illegal to knowingly and willing use a wireless internet connection without permission. It's considered Theft and has been procecuted in the US multiple times now. Specifically this is compared to stealing someone elses cable. It's not jail time or anything but you can be fined.

It's not like the UK where you can get fined $5000 and go to jail or anything but it is technically theft of service.

Generally the only people "caught" or "prosecuted" are those that have been told to stop, were dicks and didnt, and they paid the price.

[Edited on February 20, 2007 at 11:39 AM. Reason : grrr]

2/20/2007 11:38:29 AM

Because free hotspots are so common, how could an average joe know the difference unless there is something that tells him that it is off limits? The trespassing analogy doesn't apply because an individual can't easily tell what's free-for-all and what isn't unless there is something to block public access (WEP, authentication, etc.).

I leave my wireless network wide open and don't mind my neighbors using it. I use QoS to rate-limit how much traffic outsiders can use, and all of my machines are locked down. If anything people should worry more about what I could do to their machines than what they could do to mine.

Even so, it's nearly impossible to find and track an offender down. All you have is a MAC address, and all that tells you is what vendor made the NIC, assuming it wasn't spoofed.

2/20/2007 11:43:06 AM

^^was about to use the TV cable theft as an example... :p yeah, usually they'll confront you and give you 30 days or so before taking legal action or fines. 1st time a warning.

in 98 when they hooked up my cable box, we unknowingly got cable tv as well. We enjoyed free cable for like 6 months before their routine maintenance found out the problem and confront us without knowing that we knew we already had cable access (we actually found out by accident when my dad was playing with the cable box to get the internet signal to the upstairs cable, our house is wired oddly). They just gave us the option for a time warner package and was actually a fairly good deal at the time so we jumped on that. We'll probably get an HDTV soon and upgrade to the digital package.

^someone could report you for 'sharing' your internet... but again, thats like a 1 in a billion scenario...

[Edited on February 20, 2007 at 11:45 AM. Reason : ]

2/20/2007 11:43:54 AM

you'd really have to be dumber than drunknloaded to actually get caught.

2/20/2007 11:44:35 AM

^tru, but people stumble on shit all the time without knowing it. And with the boston terror scare... we can gauge how bright ppl are...

2/20/2007 11:46:36 AM

Im just speculating here, but if someone from Cook and Son Funeral Home Calls up the cable company:

Quote :

" Funeral Guy: "Hey whats up with the Intarweb? Its like hella slow!" Cable Guy: "Hold on let me check... everything's ok, you've got got full speed" Funeral Guy: "then whys it take like a minute just to open up a webpage?" Cable Guy: "Cause you're currently downloading multiple files at 3000kps." Funeral Guy: "What are you talking about?? I'm the only one here!" . Cable Guy: "Well someone is.... looks like a sequence of files called "Lolita"...." Funeral Guy: "huh?" Cable Guy: "oh, damn, son." Funeral Guy: "what?" "

[Edited on February 20, 2007 at 12:55 PM. Reason : ]

2/20/2007 12:54:44 PM

haha, just don't download shit and use all of their bandwidth... durr

2/20/2007 1:12:54 PM

If you're really worried about it, give this a try http://www.torrify.com/software_torpark.html. If speed is not a concern, the free version will do fine. I'm sure there are many other similar (and better) products out there.

2/20/2007 5:28:09 PM

^ similar (and better): tor vidalia

http://tor.eff.org/

2/20/2007 5:54:25 PM

Quote :

"It's considered Theft and has been procecuted in the US multiple times now."

Links plz.

Quote :

"Because free hotspots are so common, how could an average joe know the difference unless there is something that tells him that it is off limits? The trespassing analogy doesn't apply because an individual can't easily tell what's free-for-all and what isn't unless there is something to block public access"

They won't know. Then you run into fun issues where average joe user has an infected system that propagates itself. "Trespassing" depends on semantics of how you define it. My part of the analogy, its depends on whether there is a "no trespassing" sign. Even then, you can run into issues where the sign was not known/easily visible to the trespasser. Regardless, the trespasser still breaks some law, and in the end, it ultimately is up to a judge to issue a sentence of some sort.

2/20/2007 8:26:18 PM

i love when people leave their networks wide open and share printers like retards

2/21/2007 12:19:18 AM

yeah. those are fun times. I've printed messages to people all the time at the dorm.

2/21/2007 12:32:36 AM

yes, you could get in trouble. Very unlikely though.

Whatever trouble it may be won't amount to much probably.

^ lol one letter per page ftw

2/21/2007 8:56:44 AM

Perlith

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060323-6447.html

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/07/04/State/Wi_Fi_cloaks_a_new_br.shtml

http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/08/technology/personaltech/internet_piracy/index.htm?cnn=yes

http://www.mostlycreativeworkshop.com/Article312.html

Note: I'm NOT argueing if it's easy or not to get caught... just that it's technically illegal.

[Edited on February 21, 2007 at 11:19 AM. Reason : !]

2/21/2007 11:18:40 AM

is an access list just as good as encryption?

2/21/2007 3:24:46 PM

sure...

if you dont mind that any kid with linux on his wireless laptop can read all your email, monitor your internet browsing, and see all your user/passwords to just about any site you visit.



[Edited on February 21, 2007 at 3:48 PM. Reason : ]

2/21/2007 3:46:32 PM

^^^at least one of those links doesn't necessarily show that it has "been prosecuted multiple times" or "is considered theft"

http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/08/technology/personaltech/internet_piracy/index.htm?cnn=yes

Quote :

"The legality of stealing your neighbor's connection is murky at best. "All of this stuff is so new, it's hard to say what the liability issues are," said Robert Hale, a San Francisco-based attorney"

Quote :

"Hale points out that there is a federal law on the books that ostensibly prohibits using someone's access point with out their permission. But "without permission" is vaguely defined and the law seems more geared towards computer hacking."

Quote :

""It's a gray area," said Paul Stamp, an analyst at the technology consultants Forester Research. "By not restricting access it could be argued that you're implicitly making that available.""

Quote :

""A broad statement concerning the access of unprotected wireless networks as being always legal or illegal simply can't be made," said Jackie Lesch, a spokeswoman for the Department of Justice. "It's just kind of dicey.""

Quote :

"On the state level it could be more clear. "It's unlawful access", said John Geraty, an officer with the Internet crimes against children unit of the San Francisco Police Department. According to Geraty, using your neighbor's wireless is specifically prohibited in the California penal code. "It's not yours and you're taking it," he says. But Geraty said his department doesn't deal with that type of crime specifically and an officer at the department's fraud desk -- whose jurisdiction it would fall under -- said she couldn't recall anyone ever being arrested for it. "

[Edited on February 21, 2007 at 4:44 PM. Reason : .]

2/21/2007 4:44:03 PM