yeah, didn't see this one coming from a mile away

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070309/D8NOO50O0.html

Quote :

"WASHINGTON (AP) - The FBI improperly and, in some cases, illegally used the USA Patriot Act to secretly obtain personal information about people in the United States, underreporting for three years how often it forced businesses to turn over customer data, a Justice Department audit concluded Friday. FBI agents sometimes demanded the data without proper authorization, according to a 126-page audit by Justice Department Inspector General Glenn A. Fine. At other times, the audit found, the FBI improperly obtained telephone records in non-emergency circumstances. The audit blames agent error and shoddy record-keeping for the bulk of the problems and did not find any indication of criminal misconduct. Still, "we believe the improper or illegal uses we found involve serious misuses of national security letter authorities," the audit concludes. At issue are the security letters, a power outlined in the Patriot Act that the Bush administration pushed through Congress after the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks. The letters, or administrative subpoenas, are used in suspected terrorism and espionage cases. They allow the FBI to require telephone companies, Internet service providers, banks, credit bureaus and other businesses to produce highly personal records about their customers or subscribers - without a judge's approval. FBI Director Robert S. Mueller called Fine's audit "a fair and objective review of the FBI's use of a proven and useful investigative tool." The finding "of deficiencies in our processes is unacceptable," Mueller said in a statement. "We strive to exercise our authorities consistent with the privacy protections and civil liberties that we are sworn to uphold," Mueller said. "Anything less will not be tolerated. While we've already taken some steps to address these shortcomings, I am ordering additional corrective measures to be taken immediately." Fine's annual review is required by Congress, over the objections of the Bush administration. The audit released Friday found that the number of national security letters issued by the FBI skyrocketed in the years after the Patriot Act became law. In 2000, for example, the FBI issued an estimated 8,500 letters. By 2003, however, that number jumped to 39,000. It rose again the next year, to about 56,000 letters in 2004, and dropped to approximately 47,000 in 2005. Over the entire three-year period, the audit found the FBI issued 143,074 national security letters requesting customer data from businesses. The FBI vastly underreported the numbers. In 2005, the FBI told Congress that its agents in 2003 and 2004 had delivered only 9,254 national security letters seeking e-mail, telephone or financial information on 3,501 U.S. citizens and legal residents over the previous two years."

3/9/2007 12:02:22 PM

oh, you know, the civil rights abuses were just an accidental oversight.

besides, if you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about.

3/9/2007 12:08:35 PM

Quote :

"Fine's annual review is required by Congress, over the objections of the Bush administration. "

lets just give bush his way and name him king, with no power limitation or checks and balances.

3/9/2007 12:09:56 PM

the Congress would probably vote to give Bush those powers since they don't apparently read what they sign

3/9/2007 12:33:37 PM

Quote :

"In a perfect world, our legislators would vote on each bill based on thorough, firsthand analysis. But that's not how it works in Washington. Most congressmen don't actually read bills, relying instead on impressions gleaned from staff and lobbyists. And in many cases, they couldn't read them if they wanted to: The 700-plus-page Deficit Reduction Omnibus Reconciliation Act of 2005, for example, surfaced after 1 a.m. and went to vote early the next morning. "That's the way it's done," Rep. Rob Simmons (R-Conn.) told the Hartford Courant in January. "

^you might be right, he's a snake in the grass.

3/9/2007 1:15:22 PM

thank you for that quote. that's exactly what i was referring to in the other post. its a fact that is well known to anyone with a cursory understanding of the legislative process.

except of course for our resident scholar. Twista will tell you that every congressman reads every word of every bill that goes through the chamber.

3/9/2007 1:24:55 PM

Quote :

"besides, if you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about."

I agree with that for the most part but, their definition of right/wrong can change on a whim, not to mention it's alot easier to charge someone then let the "facts" sort themselves out


fuck the patriot act

3/9/2007 1:27:10 PM

^ that was me, in this thread, being sarcastic.

3/9/2007 1:31:23 PM

oh I know how you roll

3/9/2007 1:31:59 PM

I don't understand how conservatives who claim to be concerned with the Bill of Rights can tolerate this.

Is it all about the guns or something?

3/9/2007 1:41:40 PM

what the hell are you talking about



I don't approve of the Patriot Act because of guns actually

3/9/2007 1:42:35 PM

^No talking to you in particular.

And what don't you understand about what I said?

Conservatives are always, "The libs gonna trample my rights, blah, blah, blah..."

And now that we've seen what a conservatively dominated government will do, they still seem to think it's all about those uppity liberals.

3/9/2007 1:55:27 PM

^you make a good point.

3/9/2007 1:58:57 PM

well, Bush did it and we weren't expecting it


libs do it and we expect it from them


just because Bush did it doesn't mean that I suddenly trust that the left has my rights at heart

3/9/2007 2:01:33 PM

it just makes you realize that washington as a whole doesn't really care about individual rights.

3/9/2007 2:03:30 PM

pretty much

they care about "rights" when it's election time


then it all goes out the window

[Edited on March 9, 2007 at 2:05 PM. Reason : ...]

3/9/2007 2:05:20 PM

Quote :

"well, Bush did it and we weren't expecting it"

ummmm

3/9/2007 3:21:54 PM

btw, just about no one calls bush a "conservative" these days...

3/9/2007 3:46:03 PM

Remember when they told us they would never abuse the Patriot Act on US citizens?

Remember when they told us that they would never use our Social Security number as identification?

Remember when....

3/9/2007 10:04:04 PM

3/10/2007 12:50:26 AM

classic

3/10/2007 2:48:28 AM

^^ But it is true. For example, the First Amendment to the United States Constitution grants us freedom of speech, among other rights. One cannot, however, shout "Fire!" in a crowded theater without subjecting oneself to some form of official sanction--a freedom is limited in a reasonable and expected manner.

Please understand, though, that I am not defending the FBI--or even necessarily the USA Patriot Act. The FBI and individual agents should be held accountable for any improprieties and illegalities that may have occurred. It was probably inevitable, however, in any action such as this that involves humans.

I mean, apparently, many of you have forgotten the recent history of the Bill Clinton administration:

Quote :

"REP. CLINGER: For the past 30 years, the White House has engaged in a careful process of security clearances and background checks on individuals to determine their suitability and stability for positions at the White House and throughout the Executive Branch. The fact is, given the individuals who were put in charge of this office and the apparent lack of any supervision or control, we may never be able to determine what exactly was done with these files. But we do know that this White House had a history of amateur detectives rooting around for dirt long before the recent FBI file flap and long before we knew about Mr. Livingstone and Mr. Marceca. KWAME HOLMAN: Craig Livingstone headed and Anthony Marceca worked in the White House Personnel Security Office. In 1993, Marceca used Standard Form 86 to request and obtain a total of 707 FBI background files, most those of former White House aides in the Reagan and Bush administrations. Several were those of prominent members such as James Baker, President Bush's Secretary of State, Reagan chief of staff Kenneth Duberstein, and former Bush national security adviser, Brent Scowcroft. Today Anthony Marceca explained why he requested the files."

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/white_house/june96/files_hearings_6-26.html

Quote :

"Evidence has cropped up that Clinton staff members ordered the FBI to investigate the fired employees of the White House travel office. Following a backgrounder by Kwame Holman, Jim Lehrer is joined by Representatives William Clinger (R) New York, chair of the Government Reform and Oversight Committee and James Moran (D) Virginia."

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/travel_office/travel_office_6-6.html



[Edited on March 11, 2007 at 4:17 AM. Reason : .]

3/11/2007 4:15:01 AM

any room that you give the fbi for discretion, they will use improperly. it has happened since j. edgar hoover. why can we never learn this?

and you wonder why people were wary of the patriot act from oct. 2001. . .

[Edited on March 11, 2007 at 10:36 AM. Reason : .]

3/11/2007 10:35:52 AM

^^ perhaps you forget this is 2007 and the Clinton administration has been gone for 7 years. We are talking about the issues today. And two wrongs don't make a right.

3/11/2007 11:29:22 AM

Who made this thread? Oh.

This is why we can't have nice things.

3/11/2007 3:08:56 PM

Quote :

"any room that you give the fbi for discretion, they will use improperly. it has happened since j. edgar hoover. why can we never learn this? and you wonder why people were wary of the patriot act from oct. 2001. . ."

I agree

3/11/2007 4:43:00 PM

This is why we can't have nice things.

3/11/2007 5:03:42 PM

if you haven't done anything wrong, you shouldn't mind the FBI looking at your stuff.

its not light you got anything to hide, right? RIGHT???

or do you?

if you got problems with the FBI and President Bush and Alberto Gonzalez trying to Fight Terror, then you must be a Terrorist yourself?

what are you gonna say when the terrorist suicide bomb your grandmothers town?

Huh? what then, smart guy? What Then??

you fuckers hate America so much you need to just leave.

Let the record show that I, for one, welcome our new Justice Department overlords.

3/11/2007 5:20:03 PM

^ Stupid.

Quote :

"perhaps you forget this is 2007 and the Clinton administration has been gone for 7 years. We are talking about the issues today. And two wrongs don't make a right."

Scuba Steve

I posted this because many of you were like, OMG! Evil Bush and his evil Exxon FBI! OH NOES! As has been mentioned here, many similar abuses have occurred for years--the Bush administration has NOT cornered the market on law-enforcement abuses--regardless of the Patriot Act.

Quote :

"any room that you give the fbi for discretion, they will use improperly. it has happened since j. edgar hoover. why can we never learn this? and you wonder why people were wary of the patriot act from oct. 2001. . ."

sarijoul

I mostly agree--and I have never been a big supporter of the USA Patriot Act. But in these uncertain times, we cannot just be against things; we have to be for something. And though many Democrats were against the Patriot Act, they couldn't push through anything better--that's why so many of them voted for it.

[Edited on March 11, 2007 at 10:26 PM. Reason : .]

3/11/2007 10:24:54 PM

Quote :

"--the Bush administration has NOT cornered the market on law-enforcement abuses--regardless of the Patriot Act. "

cornered the abuse market, of course not.

they've opened the market.

to the lowest bidder.

Quote :

" And though many Democrats were against the Patriot Act, they couldn't push through anything better--that's why so many of them voted for it. "

goddamn. are you kidding?

it's kind of hard for Democrats to "push through" legislation with a Republican led Congress and Executive.

3/11/2007 11:28:33 PM

^ Typically ridiculous.

3/11/2007 11:50:11 PM

Quote :

"to the lowest bidder."

I think they actually prefer them no-bid contracts.

3/12/2007 12:03:18 AM

hooksaw, do you have any idea how congress actually works, or do you have problems with basic counting?

3/12/2007 12:31:40 AM

^ I don't have to. Thank God I have a 21-year-old, know-it-all, poli-sci major here to explain it to me! Cool!

3/12/2007 1:01:02 AM

^ it seems you have neither anything meaningful to add to the discussion, nor an ability to address any of the points already made.


the Bush Administration already has enough incompetent apologists as it is. what's your purpose here again?

3/12/2007 1:50:39 PM

^ Are you shitting me? Your silly ass is going to question whether I add anything meaningful to TSB?

Here's something that I think will have significant meaning for a number of T-dubbers: Piss off, joe_schmuck! That's my fucking purpose here.

3/12/2007 7:34:35 PM

joe 1
hook 0

3/12/2007 7:59:20 PM

Anyone who doesn't think they're ought to be checks on freedom is in need of brain surgery.
Should I be free to rape and murder?
Should I be free to take what it is that I want?

You're only attacking that line because of the person quoted as saying it. If it were labeled ~Nietzsche
you'd be blowing each other over its profoundness.

3/12/2007 9:22:07 PM

^

gotdam you one pro-found motherfucker.

That shits good. where you get that from?

3/13/2007 12:02:06 AM

Quote :

"well, Bush did it and we weren't expecting it libs do it and we expect it from them just because Bush did it doesn't mean that I suddenly trust that the left has my rights at heart"

the irony that i've never been able to reconcile is how the right CONSTANTLY demonizes the biggest organization that is defending our civil liberties, calling the ACLU a bunch of liberal wackos..

are the liberals protecting your rights, or aren't they?

answer: ACLU is non-partisan, and so is the tendency of gov't to make laws that influence people's lives..

3/13/2007 2:14:12 PM

[Edited on March 13, 2007 at 2:31 PM. Reason : wrong thread]

3/13/2007 2:16:00 PM