http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3045574

Quote :

"Massacre at Virginia Tech: 29 Confirmed Dead"

If we had stronger laws against carrying weapons on campus, I bet murderous psychopaths would think twice before doing this kind of shit.

4/16/2007 2:19:55 PM

How would stricter laws have helped anything?

Even if they were to impose the DEATH PENALTY for anyone caught with a gun on campus, these people would have still been killed....

That would not have prevented this situation as the killer was obviously off his rocker and knew the consequences of his actions.

[Edited on April 16, 2007 at 2:26 PM. Reason : .]

4/16/2007 2:22:36 PM

ibtl

4/16/2007 2:26:02 PM

ban all guns except for law enforcement (would never happen)
make guns harder to get a hold of (ie get rid of gun shows, require more stringent background tests)
make all gun owners take anger management classes (paid for by a gun owner tax)


etc etc etc

there are ways to prevent it, most unfeasible though.

4/16/2007 2:27:19 PM

If guns are banned, then only outlaws will have guns. Or in Saddam's case, if chemical weapons are banned, then only outlaws will have chemical weapons...

But seriously, more gun control isn't going to reduce gun crimes. Look at Britain and Australia, per NRA statement, "since the total ban of firearms, murders and rapes have gone up, not down."

[Edited on April 16, 2007 at 2:32 PM. Reason : :]

4/16/2007 2:29:22 PM

I think that this would make a good case to why clip capacity would need to be limited if an assault type weapon was what was used.

4/16/2007 2:29:58 PM

^^^^^You're right. But there is a way to prevent the death toll from reaching 29.

In case you missed the sarcasm in the original post, a good place to start would be to allow licensed CCW permit holder to carry on campus.

I have trouble believing that this maniac's choice of target selection was not influenced at all by the knowledge that anyone on a university campus is barred from possessing the means to fight back effectively.

Quote :

"ban all guns except for law enforcement (would never happen)"

Black market

Quote :

"make guns harder to get a hold of (ie get rid of gun shows, require more stringent background tests)"

See above

Quote :

"make all gun owners take anger management classes (paid for by a gun owner tax)"

This is just stupid. One guy losses it and 80 million people have to take anger mgmt. classes? I seem to remember an incident at UNC involving an SUV. Should all drivers have to take anger management too?

[Edited on April 16, 2007 at 2:35 PM. Reason : ']

4/16/2007 2:30:48 PM

allowing anyone to carry a weapon on campus besides police is a very very bad idea.

We do not need to be encouraging John Q. Public to be trying to be a hero, because when police do get there, if they see a guy with a gun and know shots have been fired, they would take his ass out.

[Edited on April 16, 2007 at 2:33 PM. Reason : a]

4/16/2007 2:31:59 PM

lock this shit

4/16/2007 2:36:28 PM

Why is having a gun on campus different than having a gun at the mall or at Wal-Mart?

I dunno about you, but if I was one of those 20 people who were killed I would have liked to have a gun with me and would have damn sure tried to be a hero.

4/16/2007 2:37:19 PM

^^^ Please offer evidence that CCW holders pose any danger to society. Please cite some cases where cops shot a CCW holder for defending himself or others.

[Edited on April 16, 2007 at 2:38 PM. Reason : ']

4/16/2007 2:37:35 PM

Quote :

"I think that this would make a good case to why clip capacity would need to be limited if an assault type weapon was what was used"

supposedly he had two handguns and a lot more magazines

i mean shit i could have a couple hundred rounds of 38 and two revolvers...are you gonna argue that revolvers should now only hold as much as derringers?

ps:

theres a massively huge difference in saying "anyone should be allowed to carry concealed on campus" and "people who have extensive background checks and sufficiently pass CCW classes and field tests should be able to carry on campus"

4/16/2007 2:44:43 PM

^^^^^If anyone could carry, his ass would be down before the police ever got there.

But seriously, think about this - (I can't believe it hasn't been brought up in all this drivel so far)

WORDS

If you knew, I mean KNEW that there was someone everywhere you turned with a CCW, wouldn't you think twice about trying to pull a stunt like this? This guy knew that he would have plenty of time to kill before the cops showed up, and that they would be the only ones who could challenge him with deadly force.

You make the argument that if everyone had a gun, then you'd have these random crazy people going on shooting sprees - maybe, but it's simply obvious that more sane, rational people would have the guns than the crazy people. Unless the people going on these potential rampages you speak of are incredibly stupid, in a place where everyone has guns MOST people who ordinarily would be willing to go shooting folks would have a lot more incentive to just stay home than if they knew that they would go unopposed.

Even if they were so messed up that they would go and do something like that, they wouldn't last ten seconds. The few that would actually go through with it wouldn't get very far, and the people that are rational, yet still twisted enough to want to do violent acts would have to push themselves far beyond the realm of sanity to even try anything, which by the above statement, probably would be ineffective.

/WORDS


[Edited on April 16, 2007 at 2:48 PM. Reason : .]

4/16/2007 2:46:00 PM

Quote :

"If you knew, I mean KNEW that there was someone everywhere you turned with a CCW, wouldn't you think twice about trying to pull a stunt like this?"

of course...ask most career robbers in jail as well, they'll agree

the only people who wouldnt think twice about it are the nutcases that just dont give a shit, probably like the guy at VT today

course if just a few people had CCPs I bet they would've gotten to him sooner

4/16/2007 2:47:51 PM

Quote :

" If you knew, I mean KNEW that there was someone everywhere you turned with a CCW, wouldn't you think twice about trying to pull a stunt like this? This guy knew that he would have plenty of time to kill before the cops showed up, and that they would be the only ones who could challenge him with deadly force."

A "stunt"? Come on pal, its more than that. This is a sick and twisted individual that was ready for today to be his last day on earth. No amount of CCW was going to prevent him from trying something like this. For all we know, he might have changed his tactics to sniping instead of just walking around capping people.

4/16/2007 2:52:06 PM

Quote :

"No amount of CCW was going to prevent him from trying something like this."

but a small amount of CCW couldve significantly decreased the body count

4/16/2007 2:53:19 PM

Thats a great point!!!

4/16/2007 2:58:29 PM

That is, if you ignore this comment

Quote :

"For all we know, he might have changed his tactics to sniping instead of just walking around capping people."

Sure, it might have stopped a Columbine or VT incident. But we don't know what anyone would do if they know that lots of CCWs are all around them. He might have decided to go with a suicide bomb, which would be even worse.

4/16/2007 2:59:48 PM

blind speculation ftl for bald409

4/16/2007 3:09:39 PM

You're now commenting on your own comments...in the third person

Quote :

"but a small amount of CCW couldve significantly decreased the body count"

???

4/16/2007 3:15:00 PM

I'm State409c, aka TypeA...I am a troll...I'm State409c, aka TypeA...I am a troll...I'm State409c, aka TypeA...I am a troll...I'm State409c, aka TypeA...I am a troll...I'm State409c, aka TypeA...I am a troll...I'm State409c, aka TypeA...I am a troll...I'm State409c, aka TypeA...I am a troll...I'm State409c, aka TypeA...I am a troll...I'm State409c, aka TypeA...I am a troll...I'm State409c, aka TypeA...I am a troll...I'm State409c, aka TypeA...I am a troll...I'm State409c, aka TypeA...I am a troll...I'm State409c, aka TypeA...I am a troll...I'm State409c, aka TypeA...I am a troll...I'm State409c, aka TypeA...I am a troll...I'm State409c, aka TypeA...I am a troll...I'm State409c, aka TypeA...I am a troll...I'm State409c, aka TypeA...I am a troll...I'm State409c, aka TypeA...I am a troll...I'm State409c, aka TypeA...I am a troll...I'm State409c, aka TypeA...I am a troll...

4/16/2007 3:15:57 PM

What? I have gone over this before.

I had to get TypeA because I couldn't get the password for State409c due to a dead email address. I finally got Jake to change it. If you're gonna troll, stick to the things that I might actually be emotional about.

4/16/2007 4:02:43 PM

Quote :

"That is, if you ignore this comment Quote : "For all we know, he might have changed his tactics to sniping instead of just walking around capping people." Sure, it might have stopped a Columbine or VT incident. But we don't know what anyone would do if they know that lots of CCWs are all around them. He might have decided to go with a suicide bomb, which would be even worse."

In the bell tower incident in Texas, local PD used and requested the aid of armed citizens.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/whitman/tower_6.html

http://blogcritics.org/archives/2006/08/02/152847.php


Edit
-------

Incidently about one year ago:

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/wb/xp-50658

Quote :

"Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus.""

How does that bit about feel good safety measures go again?

[Edited on April 16, 2007 at 4:11 PM. Reason : adfads]

4/16/2007 4:07:04 PM

Quote :

"I bet murderous psychopaths would think twice before doing this kind of shit."

joke, right?

4/16/2007 4:10:03 PM

^If you really have to ask if he's kidding, then you don't know Megaloman at all.

4/16/2007 4:12:43 PM

Quote :

"If we had stronger laws against carrying weapons on campus, I bet murderous psychopaths would think twice before doing this kind of shit."

if we had morals and better parenting in this country you wouldn't have shit like this.

4/16/2007 4:19:30 PM

All I know is one thing... I'm putting myself into a concealed handgun class immediately. I will not be a victim of this type of crime.

4/16/2007 4:21:58 PM

^^you can find cases of people going psychopath in every culture.

^so you're then going to break the law and carry your gun where no guns are permitted?

[Edited on April 16, 2007 at 4:22 PM. Reason : .]

4/16/2007 4:22:02 PM

you can find cases of people having bad parents in every culture.

4/16/2007 4:22:37 PM

No but a college campus isn't the only place you can get shot up.

4/16/2007 4:25:09 PM

^^^^

you can't actually carry anywhere useful. the restrictions on where you can't carry make a CCP not worth the trouble, in my opinion.

4/16/2007 4:26:35 PM

Quote :

"^^you can find cases of people going psychopath in every culture. "

of course you can...but not nearly as many as in the US and most of these cases in the US aren't 'psycho paths' just attn whoring kids with no direction in their life.

4/16/2007 4:50:15 PM

So which is it? Are they psycho paths or attention whoring kids? Can one be the other? But not vice versa? Are you an idiot?

These questions demand answers.

[Edited on April 16, 2007 at 4:51 PM. Reason : a]

4/16/2007 4:51:06 PM

Quote :

"but not nearly as many as in the US "

there aren't many countries that have the population we do either.....I think there is more of a problem with blame, nobody can accept blame for anything....they always try to put it on someone/something else.

on a side note....if a handgun is not concealed (on a holster on your hip in plain view), in an area where guns are not prohibited, and bought legally, it's legal to carry w/o a CCP, right?

4/16/2007 4:54:35 PM

^true, but I'd be iffy about open carry.

4/16/2007 5:24:48 PM

Quote :

"Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus"

feel safe != be safe

Quote :

"you can't actually carry anywhere useful. the restrictions on where you can't carry make a CCP not worth the trouble, in my opinion."

you can carry it in your car...at your home...at your business, assuming the boss is ok with it...and basically you can carry at any non-govt building that doesnt serve alcohol or have a sign posted to the effect of "no concealed weapons"...what "useful" places can't you carry them? aside from banks, post offices, courts, govt buildings, arenas, stadiums, schools, etc, you can pretty much carry them where you need to...and if IIRC, NC's concealed permit is "accepted" in about 38-40 other states...for example if I carry when I make a business trip to SC, if I were to get pulled over, SC is a state that honors NC CCPs

Quote :

"if a handgun is not concealed (on a holster on your hip in plain view), in an area where guns are not prohibited, and bought legally, it's legal to carry w/o a CCP, right?"

yes, but not always...for example north carolina state law allows you to carry a legally bought handgun, non-concealed, assuming you are 21, gun is not stolen, etc...however certain cities or municipalities can have their own individual laws

4/16/2007 5:31:36 PM

Quote :

"So which is it? Are they psycho paths or attention whoring kids? Can one be the other? But not vice versa? Are you an idiot? These questions demand answers."

learn2read, i never said they were psycho paths...

Quote :

"there aren't many countries that have the population we do either.....I think there is more of a problem with blame, nobody can accept blame for anything....they always try to put it on someone/something else. on a side note....if a handgun is not concealed (on a holster on your hip in plain view), in an area where guns are not prohibited, and bought legally, it's legal to carry w/o a CCP, right?"

lol, nice excuse...

[Edited on April 16, 2007 at 6:11 PM. Reason : fda]

4/16/2007 6:10:54 PM

so are you basically saying its the parents' fault in not instilling the right values and morals and respect for human life into their son who murdered 32 people today? cause that makes sense to me

4/16/2007 6:16:11 PM

I'd agree that it's part of the problem

4/16/2007 6:41:06 PM

I hate when people use instances like this for political gain.

We need to defend against the knee jerk reactions from both sides of the aisle.

[Edited on April 16, 2007 at 7:18 PM. Reason : .]

4/16/2007 7:17:38 PM

Quote :

"stronger laws against carrying weapons on campus"

There are strong laws against weapons on campus.

That's why the psycho was able to kill so many people.

The anti-gun nuts disarmed college students so they can't fight back.

4/16/2007 7:29:44 PM

^^ you're right

too bad thats not what the politicians and certain lobbyists will think

4/16/2007 7:49:21 PM

I heard some guy on TV saying the shooter had "high-powered weapons."

4/16/2007 8:00:26 PM

Quote :

"so are you basically saying its the parents' fault in not instilling the right values and morals and respect for human life into their son who murdered 32 people today? cause that makes sense to me"

yes that is exactly what i'm saying. Cultures with strong family values that last a lifetime and don't just stop at age 18 don't have many problems like this unless its due to serious mental problems/genetic issues etc...

4/16/2007 8:19:00 PM

Should be more guns -just think, if someone could have tossed back a few shots - much less of a body count.

4/16/2007 8:19:35 PM

Im a cop, I carry off duty EVERYWHERE i go because i have the right and its a smart thing to do for many many reasons. i will also say this, as a cop i am much more worried about the nut cases with guns (legal or illegal) or felons/criminals illegally carryinig weapons than i am about an honest joe q citizen with a CCP. I know that the honest citizen with a CCP has gone through a background check, has prints on file, knows the laws and had taken a class. in fact every trafic stop i have ever done where the person had a CCP they were polite and informed me of the weapon and its location (as required) and therefore i had no real worry about the situation. the situations that do worry me is when i stop a suspicious vehicle and they have concealed weapons illegally that they sure as hell dont tell me about. long story short, im all for honest people with CCP. can some nuts slip through, sure, but all in all there are always going to be nuts who do crazy shit, no rules can stop it. dont punish the honest ones, and in fact they are actually beneficial. my $0.02

4/16/2007 8:22:58 PM

Quote :

"I hate when people use instances like this for political gain. We need to defend against the knee jerk reactions from both sides of the aisle."

yep.

4/16/2007 8:40:56 PM

Even though in theory it seems that something like this could have prevented by someone with a concealed weapon, I think an arms race on campus would be the wrong solution.

1) There are a lot of depressed/suicidal people on campus as is. Giving them easy access to a gun would mean that there would be a lot more incidents like this in the future.
2) The amount of stolen/lost weapons would skyrocket, effectively arming criminals.
3) The amount of accidental discharges and involuntary deaths nationwide annually would far surpass the deaths in all of these isolated incidents combined.
4) I would not step foot on a campus full of students with guns....nor would professors want to teach here.

4/16/2007 8:42:13 PM

48

4/16/2007 8:42:48 PM

jesus fucking christ.

i thought this had been beaten to death in the chit chat threads, but i guess not.

nobody is arguing that we should be arming anyone, giving anyone easier access to guns, etc.


All people are saying is that:

-There exists a reasonably sized base of gun owners who currently possess concealed carry permits.

-At present, they are specifically barred from carrying on at least most college campuses.

-However, they DO carry at all kinds of other places. Amazingly enough, there is no rash of stolen/lost weapons, accidental discharges, or involuntary deaths.

-These owners are statistically extremely responsible. More so than the police, according to at least some studies.

-If we simply stopped specifically excluding campus as a legal place to carry, incidents could be avoided or at least reduced in severity. the risk vs reward trade-off would be favorable.

[Edited on April 16, 2007 at 9:07 PM. Reason : asdf]

4/16/2007 9:06:26 PM