I'm a teacher in Johnston County and today has been the worst of all days.

I have a student who never does anything...I've tried sitting with her, talking with parents, sending her to timeout, helping her individually....she just DOES NOT CARE. She's been tardy about 60 times total this year. She will sit there after a direct order(go get a book and do page blah) and say she is going to get it but won't move or do anything except disrupt class with gang talk or take a little nap. I take away her chair some days and she gets really mad about that and shuts down furthur.

Some say let her sleep...some say send her to time out.....They keep suspending her but can't send her to safe school because she is past the deadline to go.

Any creative ideas?

4/27/2007 1:40:29 PM

Have you tried talking to her about what is going on or finding someone she trusts to talk to her? Maybe there is an underlying issue?

4/27/2007 2:01:31 PM

Kids like that are a waste of time. That may sound heartless, but while you are directing all this extra attention towards her, the kids who really do care about learning are being neglected. If I were you I would send her to the principal's office everyday until they moved her to another class or something. Sure, that sounds bad, but then you can concentrate your efforts on the students who actually give a crap.

4/27/2007 2:04:53 PM

Quote :

"gang talk"

and

Quote :

"tardy 60 times"

You can't save folks whose parents don't care and inject that same lifestyle in to their kids. Also, the ghetto-hood crowd typically doesn't want to become educated, or at least that's how they make themselves look.

I'd say ignore and move on, but I know that'd be hard for teacher.

4/27/2007 2:05:33 PM

You shouldn't ignore her, but you shouldn't sacrifice other kids to help her (which I don't think you're doing). It's NOT a waste of time if you can figure out an efficient way to fix the problem.

How old is this kid BTW?

4/27/2007 2:08:11 PM

Sit her she's looking forward to a future filled with shitty boyfriends and failed relationships.

You should be able to relate.

4/27/2007 2:10:18 PM

Forget the dumb bitch, there are more problems than you can fix.

4/27/2007 2:13:10 PM

What grade do you teach?

4/27/2007 2:15:34 PM

I've had students like this before...

there's nothing you can do after a certain point. After a certain point, they don't care anymore, and there's not much you can do except for fail them.

Given, that looks bad on YOU because you couldn't educate someone.....at the same time, you can't force someone to do something they don't want to do. And it's unethical to promote them for doing nothing

4/27/2007 2:18:57 PM

Screw all of you who say give up. There's obviously some problems with the kid and it's definitely parental in nature.

She sounds similar to me as I lacked motivation at all to do what anyone else wanted except that "I am the teacher... blah blah. I am your parent... blah blah.". You could think of it as not having respect.

What did NOT work on me was

1) pointing me out in class
2) trying to make an example of me
3) trying to force me to do anything.

So what did work on me?

Convince me what you are doing is fun. If you're reading from a "watch spot bark" book I was bored to DEATH and disrupted the class. It might be a good idea to have the kid tested for ADD and their IQ. Typically kids that are disruptive and refuse to do what you say are bored out of their minds and anything to keep the monotony from happening is welcome. AKA disrupting the class, etc.

Your school counselor can help there.

Figure out what they like to do for fun. Engage the kid in things they like.

Once you get the involved it fixes itself. I guarantee you she is either bored, or is very confused about the material. A bad reader HATES reading. A bad speller HATES spelling and just gives up or throws a tantrum.

People like me you CANNOT force into a correct attitude. You have to convince us. But once you do we are fiercly loyal and respect you. You won't always be our hero and we won't like you but once you get that respect, if you treat us as equals and not use bullshit reasons like "Because I'm your teacher".... you'll be amazed.

[Edited on April 27, 2007 at 2:22 PM. Reason : !]

4/27/2007 2:20:24 PM

I should also add that the students that I've taught like this were in college. It's not so easy here...

4/27/2007 2:22:42 PM

^^ congrats on allowing your teacher to reach you - something most well-adjusted people do without needing any prodding. you should be so proud that you allowed your teacher to waste their time trying to find a way to help you actually do something with your life when you didn't give a shit

4/27/2007 2:31:20 PM

^absolutely horrible

4/27/2007 2:38:46 PM

Quote :

"^^ congrats on allowing your teacher to reach you - something most well-adjusted people do without needing any prodding. you should be so proud that you allowed your teacher to waste their time trying to find a way to help you actually do something with your life when you didn't give a shit "

Yeah I agree. It's not like I don't want to see every kid learn and succeed, it's just not possible. In an idealistic society where every teacher was a great teacher who can reach kids (watch the Ron Clark Story sometime) then sure, maybe. But that's not how society is, nor will it ever be. Teachers are underpaid, at times underqualified, and their primary job is to teach the class, not just one individual who she adopts as her special pet project.

I'm sure, Raige that you are absolutely thrilled that your teacher spent all that extra time catering to you so that you could get what you wanted. Did you ever think what impact your behavior had on the rest of the class? Not just disrupting class, but all the time she wasted "convincing" you that learning was fun and that you should be doing it (gee, that almost sounds like something a parent should do) when she could have been teaching and guiding the other students. But of course, catering to the needs of 1 while 29 others suffer is definitely the best course of action.

4/27/2007 3:01:33 PM

This doesn't work for all of them, but a few times now I've gotten kids more motivated by playing up their strengths. I've had class clowns leading the reading/performances during our dramatic selections. I've had those that write lyrics and such commenting on poetry. Sometimes just giving him a little something to be proud of can help. Is there anything that the kid has done well with? When all else fails, you could have them act similar to a T.A..

"If you're not going to do the work, here's an answer key, look over these classwork assignments for me."

It sounds ridiculous but so many of my disruptive kids respond well to responsibility, especially if they feel like it's something that no one else is getting to do.

4/27/2007 3:18:36 PM

Quote :

""If you're not going to do the work, here's an answer key, look over these classwork assignments for me.""

Uhhh...no way in hell. Not only are you violating the privacy rights of every other student in the classroom, you're giving special privileges to a kid who just doesn't give a damn, who will probably just fuck with the assignments, throw them out, etc. AND you're not getting the kid to learn anything.

Quote :

"Kids like that are a waste of time. That may sound heartless, but while you are directing all this extra attention towards her, the kids who really do care about learning are being neglected. If I were you I would send her to the principal's office everyday until they moved her to another class or something. Sure, that sounds bad, but then you can concentrate your efforts on the students who actually give a crap."

Sounds cold, but true. This NCLB crap actually holds back students who really care. Sometimes, there's just nothing you can do. Some behavior problems turn out to be bright kids who are bored, but kids who don't care (and whose families don't care, and have passed that on to them), won't ever care.

4/27/2007 4:56:35 PM

^^This kid has some great advice.

I taught 6th graders and 12th graders. One of my 6th graders brought a gun to school and several of my 12th graders already had criminal records. Needless to say, I had my fair share of problem students and I managed to survive.

I pretty much did the same thing that Emmanuel suggests. I turned my problems and potential problems into my favorite students and the centers of attention. There are a dozen different reasons that this works with a lot of students: the need for attention, success, importance, to stay busy, to feel liked, etc. It doesn't matter why it works, just that it works. I had them file, staple, hand out papers, write on the board, give examples, answer simple questions. . .I just kept them engaged and too busy to act out.

And it seems like this is pretty much a standard way of dealing with difficult students with the new gen teachers.

Good luck! You'll make it. My grandmother taught 30+ years and use to chant to herself "Come day. Go day. God send pay day."

4/27/2007 9:52:17 PM

The kid is a waste of life. Too bad they don't allow corporal punishment anymore.

4/27/2007 10:14:00 PM

Some children should be left behind

http://ncst.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2213922154

4/27/2007 10:20:06 PM

^ joined

4/27/2007 10:21:30 PM

Quote :

"A bad reader HATES reading"

I hate/hated reading but I am/was a pretty good reader thus negating your point. I'm going to go with the ADD aspect.

4/27/2007 11:17:26 PM

-Have you talked with her openly and privately? I've had some really encouraging results simply by discreetly getting a kid out in the hall and asking "what's up?"

-Calling kids out in front of their peers only strengthens this type of kid's will resist you. Don't ask "why aren't you doing this paper?" Ask, "do you have a pen?", or "do you have a question?"; anything along those lines. Ask the question in such a way as to let her comply with your will without it being obvious to the class that she's complying to your demands.

-My ultra-low achievers often respond to gobs of positive reinforcement. So much of it that they know I'm exaggerating. They know I'm kidding with them, but it still makes them feel good, and they often open up to me.


That being said, at this point in the semester it's probably too late to do much with her.

You can't let this sort of thing get you down. I have half a dozen or so kids who match this girl's description (gang "talk"? Hell, kids at my school openly fly their flags). I do my best as a teacher, but fuck it-- it's ultimately on them to decide whether or not they want to do something with their lives. Someone has to cook your fries.

You've done your best and you've done everything to necessary to Cover Your Ass. Waisting even more time on her is hurting your other kids. If you have an EOC class, consider how dumbing your lessons down to her level will affect the rest of your scores.


**Also, as teachers, are we really helping our students by holding their hands through everything? Does this at all resemble real life?

This is the primary reason I'm considering leaving teaching; the increased focus test result has placed the responsibility for achievement on everyone but the children and parents. I got some really good EOC scores last semester, but only after doing nearly all the work for the kids. Forget leading them to water... I tied a cinder block around their wastes and dropped them in the middle of the Pacific. If these kids have teachers like me throughout their K-12 experience, college and/or real life is going to kick them in the ass.


[Edited on April 28, 2007 at 12:09 AM. Reason : .]

4/27/2007 11:47:45 PM

Quote :

"Someone has to cook your fries. "

^ winner

4/27/2007 11:52:03 PM

Wow, I didn't expect such a great response Thank you everyone who took the time to help.

First off, what I'm teaching is fun in general. Now, this girl is like 17 and a freshman. I have talked ot her in private many times as well as her parents. Her mother was diagnosed with cancer this past 9 weeks, which I believe to be the issue before I went to administrators about what to do and they told me that she has been acting like this since her first day in high school and the cancer thing was bogus. Which I don't know what to believe...

Anyhow, she isn't ADD...she isn't "disruptive" all the time. The problem I have with her is she is openly disrespectful to me. It's a constant struggle. I let her sleep some days because I just don't have the energy. So, last 9 weeks, she made it by barely and this nine weeks ahe's already flunked pretty much beyond repair and she is the type that just doesn't care. She has told me openly she doesn't care. She says she is moving back to Cuba or Miami(?) can't remember which but she plans to drop out at that point.

She's suspended again next week. She's been suspended probably 4 times since January. The only reason she isn't in "safe school" is because she missed the deadline to go.

I don't make an example out of her...she makes an example out of herself. I say take out your books and everyone but her does...and her classmates begin prodding her to get her to participate and take out her books.

Did I mention the activity she refused to participate in was eating fruit and writing a taste test of the differences in canned, frozen, fresh, and dried? And not nasty stuff either...apples, strawberrys and peaches. How's that grab you? She refused to taste 3 items and write a descripton. I think she is beyond help....

Which is sad...but I felt guilty for giving up on her...but she really does disrupt my classroom by just being there. Students say "I wish I could just sleep all period" or "I wish I just came to school and goofed off and passed."

I try as hard as I can to just look past everything she does that irks the hell out of me but it's like she is openly testing me and does not respond to any outside talks, phone calls, or meetings.

ERgh. High schoolers.

[Edited on April 28, 2007 at 9:55 AM. Reason : .]

4/28/2007 9:45:32 AM

4/28/2007 9:54:20 AM

Quote :

"Which is sad...but I felt guilty for giving up on her"

For real though... accept that you're not going to be able to help 100% of your kids. Getting these type of kids to succeed is entirely about building relationships. We as teachers need to be aware of the fact that relationships often succeed or fail by chance. Do you best, but that's all you can do.

Quote :

"I try as hard as I can to just look past everything she does that irks the hell out of me but it's like she is openly testing me and does not respond to any outside talks, phone calls, or meetings."

She is openly testing you. Kill her with kindness when the situation allows for it, just ignore her when it doesn't. It's no fun when the teacher doesn't play along.

4/28/2007 10:30:21 AM

Quote :

"surfer_boy6: I hate/hated reading but I am/was a pretty good reader thus negating your point. I'm going to go with the ADD aspect."

negate and thus?!?

Well, hot damn, yous awful educated!

He said that bad readers hate reading. And your response is that you were a good reader who hated reading. Well, that's great, but he wasn't talking about good readers. He was talking about bad readers. And he's right--we generally do not enjoy doing things we are bad at.

So that's a big fat NO to your uppity "thus negating your point" bit.

4/29/2007 8:42:55 PM

Wow, I thought this was about like a 3rd grader or something. Ha.

And what kind of class has as an assignment to taste fruit?

4/29/2007 8:52:19 PM

i wrote my disertation on it

4/29/2007 9:10:18 PM

^^ Could be anything. Probably math

It's the way schools are going these days-- the downward spiral to the ever-lowering lowest common denominator.

4/29/2007 9:23:27 PM

Hey PAW if you want to know about your disturbed child just ask BridgetSPK. She seems to have the temperament you described.

I think Boone has some good ideas. Kindness is your best bet. She probably has plenty of people disciplining her. Also, if she ever does come around (probably years down the road) she with remember your influence and advice with fondness, and she will be more likely to follow it.

[Edited on April 29, 2007 at 10:26 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on April 29, 2007 at 10:27 PM. Reason : ..]

4/29/2007 10:25:38 PM

My grandmother taught for 36+ years. I've heard about and experienced many of her horror stories. Kindness and finding a way to engage the person always seemed to work best for her. Sending people to administrators tends to just make things worse because they will often not look at the bigger picture (which you, the teacher, are often able to do). Unfortunately, since this student is being such a disruption for other students this probably isn't an option. I applaud your continuous efforts to aid this student. It is obvious that this girl is in need of some positive role models. I don't know much about this "safe school" program you keep mentioning, but is there a way you could preemptively arrange for her to attend next year? You suggested that she is moving, so this may not even be an option. Best wishes for surviving these last few weeks of school!

4/30/2007 12:31:48 AM

If its something parental, then I hate to say it but you could bring in the Social Services for neglect. Although this would be a strong move, you can't blame a kid for having parents that don't care, and bringing in the SS people will definitely give the parents a reality check.

Being a kid that was involved with SS before, I can tell you that it can get ugly real fast, but in the long run sometimes a drastic change is for the better.

4/30/2007 1:43:19 AM

4/30/2007 4:35:23 AM

too bad teachers cant hit their students. this girl needs her face rearranged.

and WTF is 'safe school'? is it a school where you just can't fail lol

i like the spartan way...if you are useless to society, toss them out.

oh and....Johnston County...there is your problem.

[Edited on April 30, 2007 at 5:14 AM. Reason : fda]

4/30/2007 5:13:45 AM

^ & ^^ FTW

[Edited on April 30, 2007 at 5:22 AM. Reason : ]

4/30/2007 5:15:26 AM

^i grew up in a school where smacking the students was practiced. Worked for me and everyone else in that school. We just didn't have kids like this.

terrorists don't need to destroy this country, the younger generation will do that just fine when they are the leaders and politicians. Seems like kids get dumber every year. Bush will seem like Americas best president in comparison.

[Edited on April 30, 2007 at 5:22 AM. Reason : fda]

4/30/2007 5:19:19 AM

Quote :

"She says she is moving back to Cuba or Miami(?) can't remember which but she plans to drop out at that point."

Tell her that she needs to know how to do math, so when she's a prostitute in Cuba or Miami she can make sure she's getting paid the right amount.
...because that's about all she's going to amount to with that attitude.

4/30/2007 5:27:22 AM

^unless she's fugly and fat.

[Edited on April 30, 2007 at 5:29 AM. Reason : fda]

4/30/2007 5:29:04 AM

Yeah, she's probably a hogbody.

4/30/2007 5:32:38 AM

Quote :

"Golovko: oh and....Johnston County...there is your problem."

There are difficult people/students everywhere.

Quote :

"Golovko: Seems like kids get dumber every year."

Average IQ is increasing each decade.

And I'd argue that kids are learning more at younger ages than ever before, despite what Boone says about this "downward spiral."

Quote :

"HappyPappy: Hey PAW if you want to know about your disturbed child just ask BridgetSPK. She seems to have the temperament you described."

If only I could be well-adjusted like you, right.



On to the topic...

pawprint, you are struggling with an extremely unhappy 17-year-old girl. At least she's still in school.

In your latest post, I'm getting a lot of bullshit about how she is openly disrespectful towards you, she tests you, she irks the hell out of you, you, you. It's not personal. It's not about you. And honestly, if I was in a bad mood, I'd refuse to do the fruit tasting, too--she should get a BY on that shit even if she's refused to do every other activity (that's how that "grabs me"). Let it go. It's one kid who is apparently suspended a lot of the time so she isn't even there.

Minimize the disruptions she creates--you already know how to do this.

The tough teacher bit isn't working (you took her chair away?) so be kind to her. After all, she's about to face an unkind world.

The behavior I'd be most annoyed with would be the other douchebags who talk shit about how they wish they could act like her and try to annoy her into participating. They need to mind they own damn business.

[Edited on April 30, 2007 at 7:01 AM. Reason : sss]

4/30/2007 6:58:12 AM

is this at Clayton High School? I taught a girl last year at Clayton High that was 16 and a freshman and sounded the exact same. I think she lived with her grandmother though.

4/30/2007 7:02:28 AM

chartreuse said,

Quote :

"Uhhh...no way in hell. Not only are you violating the privacy rights of every other student in the classroom, you're giving special privileges to a kid who just doesn't give a damn, who will probably just fuck with the assignments, throw them out, etc. AND you're not getting the kid to learn anything."

You don't give them high stakes things to grade, and you give them nothing that is a journal-type activity. There's no real privacy to be violated on a "stick the commas where they belong" warm-up assignment. They get no priveleges; it's a responsibility. It says to them, "I'm trusting you to do this the right way." If they don't take it seriously, no real worries because it was a minor assignment. However when it works, it can help to manage a problematic child and convince him that there's something he can do well. As far as getting them to learn something, you have to take baby steps. First they need to realize that they don't have to fulfill the expectations that everyone has for them to be annoying and disruptive. You have to win them over, first. It sounds silly, but you really do have to sell your subject area.

bottombaby said,

Quote :

"I turned my problems and potential problems into my favorite students and the centers of attention. There are a dozen different reasons that this works with a lot of students: the need for attention, success, importance, to stay busy, to feel liked, etc. It doesn't matter why it works, just that it works. I had them file, staple, hand out papers, write on the board, give examples, answer simple questions. . .I just kept them engaged and too busy to act out."

When it works, it's great. You end up with a kid that's happier to be in the class because he feels good about himself and you manage to get a pretty dedicated teacher assistant. Win-win.

[Edited on April 30, 2007 at 7:49 AM. Reason : .]

4/30/2007 7:45:21 AM

pawprint my example for was for far younger children. For those that thought my experiences were a waste of the time by a teacher... please quit teaching now. You have absolutely no business raising the youth of today.

Not everyone is well adjusted. Not everyone has a home life. They didn't waste time on me, they took the time needed to help me succeed. They made the difference.

Now I admit. This girl is 17... her mom has cancer and I can relate. My roommate's mom had cancer in college and he just gave up. She's reacting in the fashion of she has nothing to lose. She probably views kindness as an insult. Finding a route to this kid is incredible hard as she's built up strong walls and heavy defenses.

The only thing I can suggest is to focus her anger and her rage on something shes likes to do that is artistic as an assignment. I'm not suggestion you replace her grades or anything like that. But this kid is in desperate mode and that's right beside suicidal. It doesn't take much at all.

If I were, and I'm not a teacher, but I would recommend giving her a chance to make up work by writing in a journal. Now I know you laugh because we both know how she's going to react. "Screw you". Make her write in the journal every single day. If she doesn't write in it. Make her sit aside first thing and write a single paragraph about her day. That's it. Takes her 30 seconds and she will bitch. Be unemotional about it. Just ask if she's completed it, CHECK IT!!!, and if she hasn't calmly ask her to go sit at an unused desk (not hers) and write a sentence. She will fight you at first but remain calm and unemotional. She plays on emotions if you havn't noticed.

Also buy 4-5... she might "lose them". And you can simple hand her another. She'll realize she can't escape this assignment and start small. This happened to a girl in my senior english class. Her life was pretty bad (pregnant, boyfriend left etc). She sounds very similar while she just didn't do anything. Slept, was quiet and very sad.

The most important thing is how you ask her to do this. You cannot force, or trick her so don't try. Be honest. Tell her it's a method for venting. Tell her you want at least 1 sentence every day. That's it. The topic is always the same. "About your day". It'll start with "I hate this fucking journal" and "Screw you ms so-n-so" but eventually she'll start pouring her anger and frustration into words.

However, this isn't something you should enter lightly. You cannot rescue her, she has to do that on her own, but you will develop a bond with her. You must maintain structure with her. If you say a rule keep it. Period. No stretching for her and it sounds that you have been stretching the rules for her. She gets by because people let her.

Be prepared for a war... but in the end she will change. All you have to do is give her the right tools. In this case, a pad of paper and a pencil... (okay maybe 5 pads of paper and 10 pencils over time).

Good luck.

[Edited on April 30, 2007 at 8:08 AM. Reason : !]

4/30/2007 8:05:14 AM

Quote :

"For those that thought my experiences were a waste of the time by a teacher... please quit teaching now. You have absolutely no business raising the youth of today."

MOTHERFUCKING SIGNED!!!!! I'd venture to guess that a large number of kids who act out don't know themselves well enough to realize why they act out, so lets not go pissing on Raige or anyone else. This is not to say that every teacher can fix every kids problems, or that sometimes you have to cull the herd from time to time, but to just give up on every problem child and assume its their own fault? Yeah, no.

Quote :

"She probably views kindness as an insult."

Absolutely. Now, admittedly, I fell outside of the norm but looking back to when I was a kid, I felt that someone who was being superficially nice was patronizing me.

Beyond that, being the kind of kid who got F's and D's in conduct, when they gave that sort of grade, and who was probably one of the last kind in America to get his ass whupped by his principal*, and without actually knowing this girl, I think Raige is on point with his advice.

[Edited on April 30, 2007 at 9:11 AM. Reason : *thanks a lot Ms. Hitchkad]

4/30/2007 9:01:28 AM

Quote :

"Average IQ is increasing each decade."

Probably because they have to make the test easier each year so no one gets offended by testing at a below average intelligence.

4/30/2007 9:11:52 AM

Quote :

"I hate/hated reading but I am/was a pretty good reader thus negating your point. I'm going to go with the ADD aspect"

hahahaaa, what an idiot.

4/30/2007 9:14:13 AM

^^^I wouldn't advocate being superficially nice.

But if you have any genuine kindness, I think you ought to use it.

Like, maybe asking how she's doing and really wanting to know the answer.

I'm not talking about complimenting her obviously neglected outfit or hair or something.

^^No.

Nice job on being wrong though.

[Edited on April 30, 2007 at 9:16 AM. Reason : sss]

4/30/2007 9:15:10 AM

^I was going to point out that it was a joke, but it appears as though I now have proof.

4/30/2007 9:26:08 AM

Set em up.

4/30/2007 9:29:18 AM