Quote :

"New signs sought as Raleigh changes Jane Ruffin, Staff Writer, N&O RALEIGH - With a new convention center on the way, the recent opening of Fayetteville Street and other changes downtown, the city is concerned about a vexing issue for visitors and residents alike: roadside and pedestrian signs that are inconsistent, confusing or nonexistent. The city paid a consulting firm $200,000 to come up with recommendations and design signs for its "way-finding" capital improvement project. The firm, Corbin Design of Traverse City, Mich., proposed navy blue and white signs with an oak leaf motif to guide people -- in cars and on foot -- to downtown attractions and parking. The report "is fairly far-reaching and very comprehensive because they understand that guiding visitors is not just about signs in the ground," Alley said. The firm, for example, suggested that the city stop referring to Raleigh's Beltline as I-440 to eliminate some confusion. It also called for ending the "inner" and "outer" Beltline designations in favor of simple "eastbound" and "westbound" directional signs.[/b] Downtown's system of one-way streets can intimidate newcomers, the consultant said, recommending that Blount, Person, Edenton and Morgan/New Bern be converted to two-way. Public parking decks, the design firm said, need to be clearly and consistently marked -- and they need to have distinctive names so visitors can more easily remember where they parked. It also called for new rules to keep delivery trucks from blocking traffic, elimination of unfamiliar names for downtown "districts," and replacement of Capital City Trail markers that are inscrutable without the brochures that serve as printed guides. Some of Corbin's recommendations are under consideration by city agencies and groups. For example, the city's public works department is reviewing the parking situation. Others are beyond the city's control; many streets, and the Beltline, are state-owned. "

So the city spent $200,000 of taxpayer money for this sage advice...
(1) Don't call the Beltline "I-440"
(2) Don't call it the inner or outer Beltline, just east- or westbound
(3) Make one-way streets two-way since they "can intimidate newcomers"
(4) Give parking decks "distinctive names"

I could've come up with that advice for only $100,000.

7/6/2007 10:06:40 PM

Quote :

"(1) Don't call the Beltline "I-440" (2) Don't call it the inner or outer Beltline, just east- or westbound (3) Make one-way streets two-way since they "can intimidate newcomers" (4) Give parking decks "distinctive names" "

1) Ok. Whatever
2) Stupid idea, i personally find the "inner" and "outer" names very useful in describing their function
3) So what, it makes sense from a logistics and traffic flow perspective
4) Doubt it will make much difference

7/6/2007 10:15:09 PM

This 200k advice sounds exactly like what some dumb ass who just moved here and didn't get it might complain of.

7/6/2007 10:32:24 PM

Quote :

"I personally find the "inner" and "outer" names very useful in describing their function"

And anyone that doesn't is too goddamn retarded to be driving anyway.

7/6/2007 10:35:02 PM

wasteful government spending like that just pisses me off, why don't they invest that in teachers salaries or something that actually would improve the city

what kind of fucktards would want to replace something described accurately with a horribly inaccurate description. The beltline is a fucking loop, there is no real east and westbound anything, direction is always changing. Inner and Outer is perfectly clear and always true...

7/6/2007 11:06:24 PM

They should call it clockwise and counterclockwise beltlines. Eastbound and Westbound would only confuse me because I visualize it as a circle, and east/west don't make sense for that.

7/6/2007 11:38:02 PM

^ agreed, once I figured that out it was no problem

7/7/2007 12:08:25 AM

I'll admit that the inner/outer thing confused me when I first moved to Raleigh, though not for too terribly long. And while one-way streets that I don't routinely deal with still cause me problems, they're necessary and I can deal.

And before anyone says that I'm all that retarded, try to keep in mind that you're talking to a kid from the bustling metropolis of Sophia, North Carolina, where the most complicated transportation situation involves "an intersection." I encountered maybe two one-way streets before I came to Raleigh. So sue me.

7/7/2007 12:55:48 AM

^ Small Claims Case has been filed with the Clerk's Office in the Wake County Courts Building to the tune of $2000 in pursuant for delinquent understanding of transportation services.

7/7/2007 8:35:05 AM

that is pretty ridiculous

7/7/2007 10:21:53 AM

did anyone stop to consider that they may have said more than just the few examples the article gave? maybe they actually did a lot of work for 200 grand. I am all about hating on big gov't but not without good reason....

7/7/2007 10:31:56 AM

Quote :

"Don't call it the inner or outer Beltline, just east- or westbound"

I'm pretty sure I've seen signs for "eastbound or west bound" beltline signs and that usually ends in me getting lost.

it's a goddamn circle, how the hell is one road east bound?

7/7/2007 10:40:08 AM

Quote :

"it's a goddamn circle, how the hell is one road east bound?"

Look..the city spent $200,000, so it must have been a terrific consultant-who obviously knows a lot more about traffic stuff than you do.

7/7/2007 10:57:38 AM

the perception of a "belt" is confusing due to there being 3 highways that make it up--it's not a damn circle.

Making the 1 way streets 2 way makes sense. "Increased" traffic flow isn't the most important. Sure people using it as a cut through can speed, but this creates a "wall" with in the city to pedestrians. One way streets are less beneficial (unless you look at is as a highway ). By forcing people to go blocks out of the way, you end up creating more traffic in general.

[Edited on July 7, 2007 at 1:30 PM. Reason : ]

7/7/2007 1:29:40 PM

one way streets carry almost twice as much traffic with far fewer accidents, since cars no longer need to make left turns through on-coming traffic. They are also safer for pedestrians, since they no longer need to look both ways. Similarly, one-way streets work well when it comes to synchronization. With two way streets, the designers need to pick a way to make ridiculously inefficient (you hit every light). As it is, with one way streets, both ways can operate as efficiently as possible (crossing 10 intersections and only hitting one or two red lights).

So don't even suggest doing away with the one-way streets. You can do away with many of them, such as cross streets, but the main through-fares should be left alone.

7/7/2007 2:06:19 PM

they need to just put a picture on the sign

says

I-440 (whatever directional/name)

then a circle with an arrow pointing what direction (clockwise or counter clockwise) with a big N on the top of it and the word "Raleigh" in the middle of the circle

7/7/2007 2:35:58 PM

One way streets are not codusive to building urban neighborhoods.

7/7/2007 2:46:21 PM

HOW ABOUT IF THEY UN-BAN DIRECTIONAL SIGNS TO NEW HOME COMMUNITIES.

7/7/2007 3:00:11 PM

I don't particularly agree with the one-way vs. two-way street idea. The problem with downtown Raleigh is that the streets aren't numbered, they just have all manner of obscure names. It's quaint to have a few "Person" and "Blount" streets, but it's much easier to know that "even numbered goes west, odd numbered goes east," etc. etc.

(** Random trivia: William Blount was the first elected official to be impeached. Welcome to downtown, kids! **)

I hate the inner/outer naming. Yes, it's a circle, but Raleigh isn't the only city with a circular highway. It should stick to standard directions. Plus I'm a little concerned that when (or if) 540 becomes a full loop, someone will start calling its directions "outer-outer" and "inner-outer," or something ...

What I really like about directions, anyway, is that they're pretty much consistent with, you know, the direction you're heading in. Half the beltline is 440, half of it is 40. If you follow their listed directions, you pretty much know where you're going. There's only one part of the circle that's really totally due-north/south.

It should be called 440 because, uh, that's the interstate. Out here in good ol' Norcal, we have many such wonderful options. 280, 680, 880, 580, 380, I think there's a 980 somewhere ... the plethora of options has surely enriched all our lives.

Giving parking decks distinctive names -- good idea, I guess. How about, um, nearest cross-street for starters?

(is the term "deck" an East Coast only thing? Out here people only call them "garages")

[Edited on July 8, 2007 at 4:56 AM. Reason : foo]

7/8/2007 4:53:55 AM

deck, garage, car park, etc

7/8/2007 6:13:00 AM

well when you guys start making 60k+ you'll understand how easy it is to spend 200k on a project

7/8/2007 9:06:15 AM

^
That's the sad thing. The City can waste what it probably sees as a pittance on this consultant.

These politicians so quickly lose sight of the fact that this tax money was hard-earned by regular working people. What's $200K here and there when you take in millions and millions from people who would rather spend the bulk of it on their own families.

7/8/2007 10:26:06 AM

I-485 in charlotte is a fucking (3/4 completed) loop and they have eastbound and westbound and north and southbound also depending on where you are

it's retarded as shit

7/8/2007 11:58:30 AM

The inner/outer designation makes perfect sense if you stop and think about it for longer than a few seconds. Similarly the designation of 440 also makes perfect sense, but in this case you need to understand how interstates are numbered. Odd numbered highways run north and south, even numbered run east an west. Major highways are two digits. Three digit highways are sub highways, if they start with an even number, it means they meet up with the major highway at both ends, if they start with an odd number, it means they end somewhere other than the main highway.

7/8/2007 12:54:45 PM

When you move here, it's tough to understand the locations and differences of the following, especially when many are the SAME thing:

I-40
I-440
Beltline
US-I

And then on top of that to know when to go East/West/South/North on each

7/8/2007 12:59:33 PM

Quote :

"The inner/outer designation makes perfect sense if you stop and think about it for longer than a few seconds."

Huh? ... I've been here 7 years, and I couldn't figure it out until I checked on Wikipedia ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_Beltline

7/8/2007 5:32:48 PM

then you shouldn't be driving a car

7/8/2007 5:36:11 PM

It is only a problem because people are not familiar with it. But we cannot ignore the fact that people are not familiar with it, so I guess we need to abandon it.

But I hope they don't do away with the inner/outer, just supliment it with whatever they think people will understand, like they do in washington.

7/8/2007 6:04:23 PM

Or the city shouldn't coddle dumbasses who are too stupid too look at a map and figure it out?

7/8/2007 6:43:03 PM

Quote :

"Huh? ... I've been here 7 years, and I couldn't figure it out until I checked on Wikipedia .... "

i hate to break it to you...but this means that you are a fucking dumb ass

7/8/2007 9:17:00 PM

i dont get you people.

Inner/Outer 440 is not only intuitive and easy to "get" ... it also makes the most sense.

what's your other option?

"head southbound on Northwest I-440, then exit Poole Rd once you're northbound on Southeast I-440?"

:rolly-eyes:

7/9/2007 4:54:47 AM

seriously...

hell, drive around the inner beltline once, and if you don't understand it by then you probably should be banned from highways for life..

eastbound and westbound... simply retarded... Inner and Outer make more sense, but since other cities do the craptastic eastbound and westbound bs we have to do it too...

7/9/2007 7:45:30 AM

Learn to read maps imo. 440 is a circle. Inner goes clockwise, while outer goes counterclockwise. There is no east/west when it changes direction when it hits a quadrant of a circle.

GG to all the idiots who can't realize this.

7/9/2007 10:42:43 AM

200,000 isnt all that much money for a project like this.

If you take the article out of context and percieve it as just the agency giving raleigh "advice" on how to manage traffic flow youve missed the point - that was only part of what they did.

They also, and I suspect this is what most of the money is for, designed all new signs for the downtown area - looking over their website, theyve done work with kansas city and Los Angeles as well as some large hospitals, so Im sure they arent cheap.

Hell Ive seen signage projects go upwards of $50k just for one building

7/9/2007 10:56:06 AM

$200k is easily just 1 billable man year for a consultant. Since the original douchebag didn't actually post a link to the original analysis, there's no way to really analyze the merits of the work. If the conclusions were so obvious, the city would have made the changes a long time ago, right?

7/10/2007 1:46:06 AM

i'd be ok if they used "clockwise" and "counterclockwise" instead of inner and outer, but for god's sake directions DO NOT MAKE SENSE when you are going IN A CIRCLE

7/10/2007 8:32:59 AM

They might eventually switch to calling 440 the inner beltline and 540 the outer beltline, with clockwise and counterclockwise designations on each. I could live with that. Little maps on signs would help with the tricky parts of the beltline, like the triangle part that shoots off to I-40 W.

7/10/2007 9:07:00 AM

Quote :

"Little maps on signs would help with the tricky parts of the beltline, like the triangle part that shoots off to I-40 W. "

that's the only part of 440 that is truly confusing right now. also, it seems like they save the actual "inner" and "outer" 440 signs until the last second and they're pretty small and hard to read until you're right at the exit.

7/10/2007 9:12:19 AM

Imagine that, a raging libertarian ranting about government "waste" takes bits of pieces of information that supports his arguments out of the full context, then doesn't link to the original argument.

7/10/2007 9:22:11 AM

^
Sorry.
Here's the link to the article I based the thread upon.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/wake/story/627120.html

7/10/2007 10:12:59 AM

Do other beltlines other than 440 use the "inner/outer" nomenclature? Most of what I remember has a lot of north/south/east/west/northwest/southeast type of crap which, to me, is way more confusing when driving in a circle.

Inner/Outer is intuitive to anyone with IQ >= two digits

7/10/2007 10:25:34 AM

If you cant understand Inner and Outer, then you shouldn't drive without a navigation system anyhow ... so pony up for being stupid.

7/10/2007 10:26:23 AM

(1) 440 is fine
(2) inner/outer works
(3) one way works, i go through downtown, so getting through as quick as possible is only possible with one ways.
(4) Give parking decks "distinctive names," but please keep big "P" to let me see it from a distance...

i disagree with all but #4, but that is not that big of a deal. only helps in some situations.

7/10/2007 10:45:02 AM

Inner and Outer is fine, they just need more distinctive signs. Those inner and outer signs look the same until you get right up on them.

7/10/2007 5:42:28 PM

The signage in general in NC sucks donkey balls. What the hell is the point of having a sign telling you which lane is which, just as the lanes are splitting, while you are going 75 mph?

How often is it that you get off of an interstate to piss/get gas/eat at an exit you have never been before, and you are not sure if you turn left to get back on the highway or cloverleaf around. Some signs telling you which direction before you cross the bridge would be nice, instead of right at the point where the on ramp begins.

7/10/2007 5:59:39 PM

Quote :

"Plus I'm a little concerned that when (or if) 540 becomes a full loop, someone will start calling its directions "outer-outer" and "inner-outer," or something ..."

Quote :

"They might eventually switch to calling 440 the inner beltline and 540 the outer beltline,"

440 = Beltline

540 = Loop

inner/outer beltline
inner/outer loop

7/13/2007 9:27:32 PM

200K for a report like this isn't a waste.

The cost can be recouped in very little time just by implementing a few of the suggestions (namely the public parking deck signage). The report was done to help improve people's downtown experience, which has a direct benefit to the city and downtown businesses.

7/13/2007 9:34:51 PM

200K is small potatoes

7/13/2007 9:49:57 PM

see thats bullshit

the inner & outer beltine works better
cause east in 10 miles starts going west and that should never happen

inner & outter or clockwise and counter.
thats all you should have on a round mother fucking road.

7/13/2007 10:10:33 PM

Yea I agree, the inner/outer makes complete sense as soon as you look at a map of raleigh for the first time

7/14/2007 12:49:23 AM