A rather smug fellow. Fun to watch an uber-liberal going after an everyday liberal for not being liberal enough.

http://www.breitbart.tv/html/2823.html

7/9/2007 8:07:51 PM

I guess he was angry.

7/9/2007 8:11:06 PM

I agree with Moore's main sentiment that mainstream media is usually full of crap.

7/9/2007 8:11:16 PM

Ok I'm about 3 minutes in, and Moore is getting really annoying. He won't even let Blitzer get a word in edgewise, and Blitzer is saying that they've invited Moore on multiple times and he's declined.

7/9/2007 8:15:07 PM

hahahaha and the claim that he made fun of that guy's name is bullshit. he just says "Sanjay GUPTA" and the title of the video is "Michael Moore Mocks Indian Anchor’s Name During On-Air Tirade Against CNN"

red herrings anyone

7/9/2007 8:20:08 PM

Look at social security, look at medicare, look at the welfare system.

What would lead someone to think we'd be better off with politicians in charge of our health care?

7/9/2007 8:28:38 PM

^ that's a red herring argument. The gov. does a lot of things right still, it's largely the reason the US is one of the best (if not the best) countries to live in on the planet.

You can view socialized medicare as putting our healthcare back in to the hands of doctors, not profit-motivated HMOs. To be clear, I have no problem with health care systems making money, but they have shifted to making money at the expense of peoples' health, not in benefit of peoples' health.

Our health system, regardless of if we enact socialized medicine, is badly in need of reform.

7/9/2007 8:59:34 PM

as if that (^) doesnt sound like partisan bullshit

do you have any experience in healthcare?

7/9/2007 9:58:44 PM

Do you?

7/9/2007 10:00:43 PM

only anecdotal from family members

and that isnt the story i hear

im a fan of letting the market figure it out...there is obviously a market for health care, it will never go away

smart companies will provide the services that the consumers demand at a price they can afford

most hospitals have less than 5% profit margin...that is peanuts compared to other sectors

if you want to fix health care, fixing insurance is probably where you should start

[Edited on July 9, 2007 at 10:08 PM. Reason : 

7/9/2007 10:05:47 PM

1) jesus.... he looks like shit. i had heard he lost a lot of weight?
2) someone needs to blast the media to their face (more so than Jon Stewart and Colbert do indirectly every night). somebody should be doing this to Tony Snow every day until he stops stonewalling the white house press corps about everything
3) "mocks indian anchor's name"? wtf kind of headline is that. he said "Sanjay Gupta" once and "Dr. Gupta" once each, i think, but with no hint of contempt about it being Indian either time.
edit - ok, just listened to the last 30 seconds. he said "Dr Sanjay Gupta" at the end. was that it?
4) the last 1/2-1/3 was much better when it turned into a somewhat civil discussion.

[Edited on July 9, 2007 at 10:16 PM. Reason : .]

7/9/2007 10:09:31 PM

^^Depending on what you mean by "fixing insurance" we may be on the same side of this issue.

[Edited on July 9, 2007 at 10:10 PM. Reason : ]

7/9/2007 10:09:53 PM

well there are one of two things happening

either (a) the cost of health care is artificially inflated due to certain influence(s), or
(b) health care really costs a shit load and americans just are not accepting it by taking the lazy way out...politicians capitalize on this to get votes and meddle where they shouldn't...here is where the entitlement attitude that plagues our nation comes to bit us in the ass

there is a nursing shortage...surely that contributes to the increase in price?

7/9/2007 10:17:37 PM

Quote :

"A rather smug fellow. Fun to watch an uber-liberal going after an everyday liberal for not being liberal enough."

7/9/2007 10:51:50 PM

He came off as an ego-inflated douche bag, not much of a surprise.

7/9/2007 11:21:14 PM

why is it second nature for the protection of our buildings from fire to be entirely socialized, but the protection of our bodies is not? or at the very least protection of the bodes of children? or do you think that fire protection should be made more efficient by market forces?

[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 12:42 AM. Reason : .]

7/10/2007 12:41:45 AM

^ False analogy.

7/10/2007 12:55:02 AM

how is that a false analogy?

7/10/2007 12:57:12 AM

Health care != The protection of our bodies

Your choice of words is poor and misleading.

7/10/2007 1:25:22 AM

how is it not the protection of our bodies?

7/10/2007 1:27:11 AM

^^^ One reason is that fire services are a public good. And health care is usually an individual and private decision.

One's individual and private decision to seek delivery of a medical service may or may not benefit society collectively. Does a boob job benefit society collectively? No. Does an 80-year-old having a suspicious skin growth removed benefit society collectively? Doubtful. Does the fire department extinguishing burning buildings and providing other services benefit society collectively? Yes.

And the medical profession is largely for-profit. More than likely, the fire department in question is a not-for-profit organization.

[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 1:28 AM. Reason : .]

7/10/2007 1:27:28 AM

are you trying to contend that public health doesn't affect the common good?

Quote :

"And the medical profession is largely for-profit. More than likely, the fire department in question is a not-for-profit organization. "

um. yeah. that's what i was getting at.

[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 1:30 AM. Reason : .]

7/10/2007 1:28:20 AM

^ Not all individual and private medical decisions and services affect society collectively.

Um. . .yeah, genius. Do you want to put all the doctors, nurses, and other health-care providers on the government payroll? I'm sure you do.

BTW, driving affects the common good--will you pay my car insurance?

[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 1:36 AM. Reason : .]

7/10/2007 1:30:14 AM

so then forget all the parts of health care that do affect all of us?

7/10/2007 1:31:13 AM

^ Not what I posted and not the point. You are simply making a normative argument--what should be, according to you.

7/10/2007 1:33:14 AM

so? why shouldn't i hope for what would be better than what is, by all accounts, a thoroughly crappy health care system in this country.

[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 1:36 AM. Reason : .]

7/10/2007 1:36:04 AM

^

Quote :

"BTW, driving affects the common good--will you pay my car insurance?"

Blame America first, am I right? Why don't you move to Canada, comrade?

[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 1:38 AM. Reason : .]

7/10/2007 1:37:12 AM

The protection of our bodies includes preventive and emergency services such as law enforcement, emergency response and disaster relief, all of which are government services or highly regulated by governing bodies.

Health care encompasses more than the "protection of our bodies". Treatments, elective procedures and diagnoses often have nothing to do with protection and everything to do with health services. Do you expect the government to perform maintenence and upkeep on your house to prevent future fires?

Quote :

"why shouldn't i hope for what would be better than what is, by all accounts, a thoroughly crappy health care system in this country."

Of course you should hope for something better and more efficient. Socialized medicine is not the answer, though.

PS our health care system is the best in the world for those who can afford it. It's grossly inefficient and unfair to the "have-nots", but a good American health-care plan is vastly superior to any socialized European plan in terms of response and quality of care.

[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 1:41 AM. Reason : 1]

7/10/2007 1:37:47 AM

they do so in the form of city ordinances.

and i really like how elective operations like boob jobs and whatnot keep coming up. i'm talking about basic care for everyone. i'm talking about dentist's appointments. checkups with a doctor. a reasonable amount of leave for pregnant women without fear of losing their jobs, etc.

[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 1:40 AM. Reason : .]

7/10/2007 1:39:32 AM

^ WTF?!

Quote :

"BTW, driving affects the common good--will you pay my car insurance?"

Food is an immediate need. Will you buy my breakfast, lunch, and dinner--forever?

Answer the fucking questions.

[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 1:42 AM. Reason : .]

7/10/2007 1:40:48 AM

Quote :

"PS our health care system is the best in the world for those who can afford it. It's grossly inefficient and unfair to the "have-nots", but a good American health-care plan is vastly superior to any socialized European plan in terms of response and quality of care."

and how many people in this country have one of these "good" plans?

7/10/2007 1:42:14 AM

Quote :

"BTW, driving affects the common good--will you pay my car insurance?"

Quote :

"Food is an immediate need. Will you buy my breakfast, lunch, and dinner--forever?"

Quote :

"Answer the fucking questions."

7/10/2007 1:44:12 AM

sorry i didn't answer your edited-in questions within 60 seconds. jesus.

1) i don't necessarily think an entirely socialized system is necessarily the answer but our system is terrible right now. i think at the very least the inflated drug prices in this country are an outrage. also i think that every child should be medically covered for all basic needs.

2) no, i'm not going to pay for your shit.

7/10/2007 1:47:01 AM

^ Then why the fuck do you want me to pay for yours and everybody else's shit, huh, comrade?

7/10/2007 1:49:15 AM

Quote :

"and how many people in this country have one of these "good" plans?"

Good question. I have a "good" plan. Most people I know have legitimate insurance provided at least in part by their employer, and the ones that don't usually choose not to get it.

I have no idea about the percentages, however.

Quote :

" i think at the very least the inflated drug prices in this country are an outrage."

Who is gonna pay for the R&D of new drugs if consumers don't? These drugs don't just appear out of nowhere.

[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 1:51 AM. Reason : 2]

7/10/2007 1:50:00 AM

^^because it costs us way more to "not pay for other people's shit" than it does other countries who have more socialized forms of health care.

^and i wonder how many of these people with supposed "good" plans would get dropped or have their rates skyrocket if they ever REALLY got sick.

Quote :

"Who is gonna pay for the R&D of new drugs if consumers don't? These drugs don't just appear out of nowhere. "

the drug companies are willing to sell it to the rest of the world for far less. why are we the poor saps who strap the rest of the world on our backs?

[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 1:53 AM. Reason : .]

7/10/2007 1:51:17 AM

In a sense, the US is subsidizing worldwide health care by developing the best drugs and newest medical procedures. US citizens demand the very best care, which drives drug companies to innovate and hospitals to try experimental new procedures.

7/10/2007 1:53:57 AM

^^ How about letting people keep more of THEIR OWN FUCKING MONEY and pay for their own shit? You know, the whole lower taxes thing--but I'm sure a centralized authority can do things much better, right?

[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 1:55 AM. Reason : .]

7/10/2007 1:54:57 AM

^^and that's helping us how?

i mean our country is by and large unhealthy.

^well, if other countries with more socialized systems are any indication, yes.

[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 1:55 AM. Reason : .]

7/10/2007 1:55:05 AM

Quote :

"why are we the poor saps who strap the rest of the world on our backs?"

Simply put, because in a competitive system, there is no single group large enough to negotiate lower drug prices. We don't have a monopoly like socialized health care systems. If we did, R&D for new drugs would plummet due to the lack of competition and market forces.

7/10/2007 1:56:18 AM

so doesn't that mean we're getting fucked by the current system?

7/10/2007 1:57:31 AM

Quote :

"Anything bad for you--salt, sugar, caffeine, alcohol--has been declared illegal. Be well, citizen."

--Dr. Raymond Cocteau



[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 2:01 AM. Reason : .]

7/10/2007 2:00:30 AM

man you love referencing shitty early 90s movies.

7/10/2007 2:02:43 AM

Quote :

"so doesn't that mean we're getting fucked by the current system?"

Yes, but the alternative is to get fucked harder.

The US is the most innovative force in medicine today. We have the best doctors, the best drug companies, and the best laboratories. It's been like that for a while. None of that stuff is free. Doctors are constantly trying to get into the US because they know they will get paid. Why do we pay for all of this? Because people in America DEMAND the very best care, and they would rather pay extra than wait in line or settle for second best.

Socialized systems usually feature long wait times, excessive beauracracy and slightly outdated procedures / drugs. It's quite a bit cheaper, but the care is not on the same level as a good American health-care plan. Sorry, but people won't go for that shit. And the only way socialized medicine works is if everybody buys into it.

[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 2:06 AM. Reason : 1]

7/10/2007 2:03:02 AM

^^ Fucking commie.

7/10/2007 2:07:10 AM

^^or they've been told that for so long that they believe it.

i know for damn sure i've had to wait for a long time for my super-great-awesome health care.

i also knew a family member who died because of complications from an infection that she recieved while receiving a routine procedure (likely because the facility she was in wasn't sufficiently sanitary -- and mind you this was at wfu hospital, supposedly a top-notch research hospital).

i'll give you that our doctors are getting paid more. but the whole way our system works is horrible. it basically only serves the rich (and the healthy who don't actually need any major care).

[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 2:07 AM. Reason : .]

Quote :

"excessive beauracracy"

and our current health care system isn't a bureaucracy?

[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 2:09 AM. Reason : .]

7/10/2007 2:07:11 AM

Quote :

"i also knew a family member who died because of complications from an infection that she recieved while receiving a routine procedure"

I'm gonna guess that it was a drug-resistant staph infection. Those are becoming a huge problem in hospitals across the world.

Quote :

"and our current health care system isn't a bureaucracy?"

excessive regulation is one of the biggest problems with our current system. Instead of trying to socialize the system, I would try to encourage competition by deregulating the industry and promoting upstart health-care providers. Look at California. Arnold deregulated the workers comp program in order to promote competition, and rates have gone down while service has gotten better.

Frivelous lawsuits are also a big problem.

[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 2:15 AM. Reason : 1]

7/10/2007 2:13:29 AM

frivolous as deemed by whom?

7/10/2007 2:20:14 AM

Common sense.

Some lawsuits are legitimate, some are bullshit. The bullshit lawsuits out there add a lot of money to our healthcare bills. All practicing doctors pay tens of thousands of dollars a year in malpractice insurance. Do you deny that this has an impact on our health care costs? Or that some lawsuits are frivolous?

[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 2:25 AM. Reason : 2]

7/10/2007 2:24:35 AM

^^^^ It was probably MRSA and that could have happened just about anywhere.

[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 2:25 AM. Reason : .]

7/10/2007 2:25:05 AM