First the Govt claimed Tillman was killed by enemy fire. Then they admitted they lied, and that he was killed by "friendly fire." Now it comes out from the autopsy that Tillman was killed with 3 shots in the forehead from an M16 at close range.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19984732/

Quote :

"New documents shed light on Tillman’s death July 26, 2007 SAN FRANCISCO - Army medical examiners were suspicious about the close proximity of the three bullet holes in Pat Tillman’s forehead and tried without success to get authorities to investigate whether the former NFL player’s death amounted to a crime, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press. “The medical evidence did not match up with the, with the scenario as described,” a doctor who examined Tillman’s body after he was killed on the battlefield in Afghanistan in 2004 told investigators. The doctors — whose names were blacked out — said that the bullet holes were so close together that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away. Ultimately, the Pentagon did conduct a criminal investigation, and asked Tillman’s comrades whether he was disliked by his men and whether they had any reason to believe he was deliberately killed. The Pentagon eventually ruled that Tillman’s death at the hands of his comrades was a friendly-fire accident."

Wesley Clark On MSNBC: "Possible" Tillman Death Was Murder, Cover Up Came From Very Top
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbQVGcBmyu0


http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2007/270707tillmanexecuted.htm

Quote :

"New Evidence Clearly Indicates Pat Tillman Was Executed Paul Joseph Watson Prison Planet Friday, July 27, 2007 Astounding new details surrounding the death of Pat Tillman clearly indicate that top brass decided to execute the former pro football star in cold blood to prevent him from returning home and becoming an anti-war icon. [...] So there was no evidence whatsoever of friendly fire, but the ballistics data clearly indicated that the three head shots had been fired from just 10 yards away and then the Army tried to concoct a hoax friendly fire story and sent gloating back-slapping e mails congratulating each other on their success while preventing the doctors from exploring the possibility of murder. How can any sane and rational individual weigh this evidence and not come to the conclusion that Tillman was deliberately gunned down in cold blood? The evidence points directly to it and the motivation is clear - Tillman abandoned a lucrative career in pro-football immediately after 9/11 because he felt a rampaging patriotic urge to defend his country, and became a poster child for the war on terror as a result. But when he discovered that the invasion of Iraq was based on a mountain of lies and deceit and had nothing to do with defending America, he became infuriated and was ready to return home to become an anti-war hero. As far back as March 2003, immediately after the invasion, Tillman famously told his comrade Spc. Russell Baer, "You know, this war is so fucking illegal," and urged his entire platoon to vote against Bush in the 2004 election. Far from the gung-ho gruff stereotype attributed to him, Tillman was actually a fiercely intellectual man with the courage of his convictions firmly in place. Tillman had even begun to arrange meetings with anti-war icons like Noam Chomsky upon his return to America before his death cut short any aspirations of becoming a focal point for anti-war sentiment."

[Edited on July 27, 2007 at 1:25 PM. Reason : 9-7456-756-746-7]

7/27/2007 1:17:51 PM

you sure know a lot about conspiracies to know so little about TWW's search function

IBTL (\message_topic.aspx?topic=468700)

7/27/2007 1:23:45 PM

you bttt'd that ancient thread after I posted mine

lame attempt to get mine censored/locked dude

pathetic

7/27/2007 1:27:14 PM

Quote :

"you bttt'd that ancient thread after I posted mine"

ok? and? that ancient thread was < 90 days ancient

also that ancient thread was created before you created yours

IBTL

7/27/2007 1:31:12 PM

bahaha, i love the contrast of the two headlines

REAL NEWS SOURCE: "New documents shed light on Tillman's death"

BOGUS NEWS SOURCE: "NEW EVIDENCE CLEARLY INDICATES PAT TILLMAN WAS EXECUTED!!!"

7/27/2007 1:32:10 PM

Quote :

"also that ancient thread was created before you created yours"

so what? it does not focus on the specific issue I bring up

and besides, I cannot post in other users' threads per my current posting restrictions

7/27/2007 1:32:25 PM

Quote :

"I cannot post in other users' threads per my current posting restrictions"

well if thats the case then ok, i didnt realize that...that actually makes sense for you to create a new thread

i like how you post a legit source (MSNBC) and then get people to see that before you post your illegit source (jailjupiter.net)

7/27/2007 1:34:45 PM

in before the ban

7/27/2007 1:43:50 PM

I won't talk about my opinion of this if true cause I want to let the story develop a week. Fragging is hardly new.

However, the Army are proving to be a bunch of idiots with how they have handled this whole thing, whether this is true or not.

[Edited on July 27, 2007 at 2:13 PM. Reason : .]

7/27/2007 1:48:24 PM

if he was so against the war then why in the hell did he leave the NFL to go fight in it???

7/27/2007 1:52:01 PM

^ask prisonplanet

7/27/2007 1:53:19 PM

FOR Afghanistan (which is when he joined)

AGAINST Iraq (happened after he joined)

obviously

7/27/2007 2:05:13 PM

Quote :

"bahaha, i love the contrast of the two headlines REAL NEWS SOURCE: "New documents shed light on Tillman's death" BOGUS NEWS SOURCE: "NEW EVIDENCE CLEARLY INDICATES PAT TILLMAN WAS EXECUTED!!!""

You do know that the substance of the article is more important than the headline, right? The headlines are often used to spin the story and are misleading.

Think about it dude. Tillman was shot 3 times in the forehead at close range. Is that even possible to do at anything greater than point blank range? It seems most probable to me that he was shot execution style.

Quote :

"if he was so against the war then why in the hell did he leave the NFL to go fight in it???"

Are you serious? He joined the military shortly after 9/11 because he was caught up in the fervor after 9/11 and believed (like 99.99% of us initially did) that it was muslims who attacked us. Then later, after he gathered more information and learned the truth about the Iraq War (and perhaps even 9/11), he came to oppose the war.

7/27/2007 2:17:04 PM

It doesn't make sense that he was intentionally killed to prevent an icon, because if that was "their" (who, I don't know, maybe the jews) plan, they failed miserably. Not only is Tillman still occasionally brought up as an anti-war icon, the lying about the nature of his death has caused the gov. more problems.

They would have been much better off to either let him live, or tell the truth about his death in the first place.

7/27/2007 2:24:30 PM

I vote that this thread not be locked.

salisburyboy might be onto something here

and it's true, he was prevented by the letter of his agreement from posting in the other thread.

7/27/2007 2:27:08 PM

this is one of the less kooky conspiracies you've presented.

7/27/2007 2:33:56 PM

Well, right up until he connects it to a Zionist plot.

7/27/2007 2:46:17 PM

i killed pat tillman...

im jewish..

so there ya go

7/27/2007 3:07:30 PM

^ well case closed.

[Edited on July 27, 2007 at 3:29 PM. Reason : .]

7/27/2007 3:29:48 PM

The prisonplanet article is ridiculous.

Quote :

"Astounding new details surrounding the death of Pat Tillman clearly indicate that top brass decided to execute the former pro football star in cold blood to prevent him from returning home and becoming an anti-war icon."

Where is there any evidence of top brass planning to kill him? While there is some evidence of a cover up, that is hardly evidence of causation.

Quote :

"The report also states that "No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene - no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck.""

If you actually read about what happened it will make more sense to you. The article fails to mention that other members of his platoon were wounded and one Afghan soldier was killed - even though they were nowhere near Tillman.

Quote :

"The article also reveals that "Army attorneys sent each other congratulatory e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay as the Army conducted an internal friendly-fire investigation that resulted in administrative, or non-criminal, punishments.""

A number of his comrades had their careers ruined. By all sources Tillman was a well liked guy. Who do you think would volunteer to shoot him in the head and have their career ruined? Seriously, how do you think the world works? Do you think that they sent Tillman out for coffee then locked the door and asked if anyone would volunteer to execute him?

Quote :

"But when he discovered that the invasion of Iraq was based on a mountain of lies and deceit and had nothing to do with defending America, he became infuriated and was ready to return home to become an anti-war hero."

A good number of people opposed the war from the start. Its quite a stretch to imagine Pat Tillman sifting through your sources and coming to your conclusion.

Quote :

"urged his entire platoon to vote against Bush in the 2004 election."

Thats a blatant lie. He urged one member of the platoon to vote for Kerry.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/09/25/MNGD7ETMNM1.DTL

Quote :

"Tillman had even begun to arrange meetings with anti-war icons like Noam Chomsky upon his return to America before his death cut short any aspirations of becoming a focal point for anti-war sentiment.""

Icons is plural. Noam Chomsky is one man - he also happened to be one of Tillman's favorite authors.

Quote :

"You do know that the substance of the article is more important than the headline, right? The headlines are often used to spin the story and are misleading."

Your brilliant prisonplanet articles do the same thing to an even greater extent.

Quote :

"Tillman was shot 3 times in the forehead at close range. Is that even possible to do at anything greater than point blank range?"

Yes.

Quote :

"Then later, after he gathered more information and learned the truth about the Iraq War (and perhaps even 9/11), he came to oppose the war."

It's hilarious how you assume that so many people in the world share your ideas.

Quote :

"She said that although he supported the Afghan war, believing it justified by the Sept. 11 attacks, “Pat was very critical of the whole Iraq war.”"

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/09/25/MNGD7ETMNM1.DTL

Let me guess: he was killed before he could explain 9/11 to his mother.

7/27/2007 4:04:37 PM

Quote :

"The official Army autopsy report obtained by ESPN.com shows that, besides the three bullets in his forehead, Tillman had shrapnel in his left forearm and wrist."

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=tillmanpart1

Quote :

"Tillman was hit in the wrist with shrapnel and in his body armor with numerous bullets. The soldier next to him testified: “I could hear the pain in his voice as he called out, ‘Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat f—ing Tillman, dammit.” He said this over and over until he stopped,” having been hit by three bullets in the forehead, killing him."

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/09/25/MNGD7ETMNM1.DTL&type=printable


So it appears clear that Tillman was shot with several rounds, including in the chest, prior to the fatal head shots. If we are to believe the testimony of the soldier, Tillman was even crying out for the friendlies to cease fire.

A possilbe scenario is that the assassin(s) first tried to kill Tillman at a distance. Then having only wounded him, they moved in and finished him off. Perhaps hitting him initially with a head shot at close range, and then finishing him off with 2 more head shots at point blank range just to make sure he would die.

7/27/2007 4:16:02 PM

Quote :

"So it appears clear that Tillman was shot with several rounds, including in the chest, prior to the fatal head shots."

Several other members of his unit were also hit and an afghan soldier was killed. How does that fit in with your execution? Were they trying to silence them too?

Quote :

"If we are to believe the testimony of the soldier, Tillman was even crying out for the friendlies to cease fire."

Well obviously that would be easy to hear over automatic weapons fire.

Quote :

"A possilbe scenario is that the assassin(s) first tried to kill Tillman at a distance. Then having only wounded him, they moved in and finished him off. Perhaps hitting him initially with a head shot at close range, and then finishing him off with 2 more head shots at point blank range just to make sure he would die."

This is you trying to shape events to fit your theory. Thats the complete opposite of deductive reasoning and fits in with every other theory that you have ever posted.

Quote :

"The soldier next to him testified: “I could hear the pain in his voice as he called out, ‘Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat f—ing Tillman, dammit.” He said this over and over until he stopped,” having been hit by three bullets in the forehead, killing him.""

Where does he say "Then he was shot in the head. Then a guy came over and shot him two more times in the forehead at point blank range. Then the guy winked at me and made a "zip it" motion with his hand indicating that I was to tell no one that he had repeatedly shot Pat in the head."

[Edited on July 27, 2007 at 4:27 PM. Reason : .]

7/27/2007 4:26:42 PM

joshua here to defend the "official"/establishment version of events on yet another issue???

complete shocker

7/27/2007 4:31:26 PM

Quote :

"Last moments The documents also shed new light on Tillman’s last moments. It has been widely reported by the AP and others that Spc. Bryan O’Neal, who was at Tillman’s side as he was killed, told investigators that Tillman was waving his arms shouting “Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat (expletive) Tillman, damn it!” again and again. But the latest documents give a different account from a chaplain who debriefed the entire unit days after Tillman was killed. The chaplain said that O’Neal told him he was hugging the ground at Tillman’s side, “crying out to God, help us. And Tillman says to him, ‘Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God’s not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling ...”"

WTF?


I don't like knowing about this shit. If the investigators really think it was an accident, then I'm apt to go with their conclusion...but damn, the report is sketchy.

I feel like there's something bigger going on like they're trying to distract us right now with this little mystery. Like, when your a kid and you cop to something small to cover up something big that you did.

7/27/2007 4:32:19 PM

M4s (and the M16, although Rangers would not be carrying them) both shoot NATO 5.56mm x 45mm ball ammunition. So does the M249 SAW. An M4 is going to jump reasonably when most people shoot it, but as heavy as a saw is, it doesn't move much. It is impossible to distinguish between the two by the ammo they expend. So, its very possible that Tillman was hit with rounds from a 249. Not saying that was the case, but FWIW.

^ They initially were covering up the fact that he was killed by friendly fire, thats what set this whole chain in motion. Fratricide (Tillman) and cowardice (Lynch) don't make for good PR.

7/27/2007 4:39:29 PM

Wow. I'm being slandered because salisburybitch is too much of a coward to defend his ideas.

Theres your complete shocker.

I'm not defending anything, I'm simply pointing out numerous errors in what you want people to believe.

[Edited on July 27, 2007 at 5:23 PM. Reason : .]

7/27/2007 5:22:49 PM

Quote :

"It is impossible to distinguish between the two by the ammo they expend."

that cannot be true. every single gun on the planet has its own ballistics "fingerprint", no?

[Edited on July 27, 2007 at 5:38 PM. Reason : ./]

7/27/2007 5:36:35 PM

Quote :

"So, its very possible that Tillman was hit with rounds from a 249. Not saying that was the case, but FWIW."

beat me to it. i was about to say the exact same thing. in fact, i think i'd heard before that it was a SAW gunner who shot him.

^ yeah, but have they gone full-on CSI, or are they just saying they were 5.56 rounds? could they have even done that sort of forensics analysis? i kinda doubt it--that happened a while ago, and i don't know if they could even track down all of the 5.56 weapons that were involved in that firefight.

[Edited on July 27, 2007 at 5:39 PM. Reason : afdfad]

7/27/2007 5:37:40 PM

Quote :

"Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat (expletive) Tillman, damn it!"

Does that sound natural at all to anyone? Substitute in your name for Pat Tillman and see if it sounds natural.

7/27/2007 6:08:53 PM

i get it...its my fault that salisburyboy cant post in threads he didnt create

7/27/2007 6:17:00 PM

no, it's just that the other thread had deteriorated to be even shittier than this one.

[Edited on July 27, 2007 at 6:19 PM. Reason : no more discussion on this unless you want to PM me. this thread doesn't need more of that clutter]

7/27/2007 6:18:12 PM

agreed but i love it how i get people talking shit to me like OEP because I choose to use the search function and bttt a thread thats less than 90 days old like TWW encourages 99.9% of its users to do...the other 0.1% are conspiracy theorists with super limited posting privledges

7/27/2007 6:20:11 PM

dude, just stfu.

S-boy has two rules that are cut in stone: he can make a total of one (1) thread per week, and he is explicitly forbidden from posting in any other threads.

this is a serious issue and you had shit all over the other thread anyhow. it hadn't even been posted in for 89 days -- until you BTTT'd it. and all it was full of was you trolling the OP.

7/27/2007 6:29:12 PM

sorry if i dont keep up with salisburyboy's posting options

7/27/2007 6:31:03 PM

its looking like he was murdered

he was not murdered because he was anti-war

7/27/2007 7:01:31 PM

^ ok, then. if he definitely *wasn't* murdered because he was anti-Iraq war, maybe you can tell us why *was* he murdered.

7/27/2007 7:23:21 PM

probably heated emotions, its not unheard of for murders to happen in war

7/27/2007 7:24:38 PM

i guess i take exception to your tone of absolute certainty that he "wasn't" murdered for "reason X", but yet you cant say why he "was" murdered without using the word "probably"

...

I'm thinking that maybe you don't really know one way or the other, and don't have any inside information, but are just positing your personal opinion as if it were declarative fact.

...

but you know, i could be wrong.

7/27/2007 7:38:45 PM

you're right, i don't know for sure and i havent seen the evidence. instead, i am basing my opinion on the opinions of the medical examiners and the investigation who have seen the evidence and know a lot more about this stuff than me. its pretty clear that at the very least there has been some kind of cover up, and the evidence the investigation has turned up at the very least shows that there should have been a better initial investigation because stories don't match up and things looks suspicious.

7/27/2007 7:44:40 PM

Quote :

"Fratricide (Tillman) and cowardice (Lynch) don't make for good PR."

Lynch wasnt a coward. I mean, she was certainly not the hero that initial reports led us to believe. But other than the lies put out by the military, her capture was really just unremarkable. She was one of many. They wanted to make a poster child of her because she was female. In fact, I'd say her testimony before Congress was brave and honest.

what was really fucked up was the bullshit dramatization of the supposed "pre-dawn rescue by Special Forces" of PFC Lynch and the rest of her unit, staged by the military with cameras and everything, when the hospital she was being cared for by normal Iraqi doctors and nurses had been in constant communication with the Army asking them, "when are you going to come pick up your people?"






[Edited on July 27, 2007 at 7:55 PM. Reason : ]

7/27/2007 7:49:48 PM

If I wanted a dead soldier to bill as a hero I would have given my sneaky NWO agent a Soviet bloc sniper rifle and have him drill Tillman in the head when he was out in patrol. Then I wouldn't have to worry about forensics, soldier testimony, a complex conspiracy, or finger pointing.

Of course I'm sure that the NWO makes all of their high-risk/low-reward assassinations of potentially meddlesome E-4s overly complex.

7/27/2007 8:59:17 PM

Quote :

"what was really fucked up was the bullshit dramatization of the supposed "pre-dawn rescue by Special Forces" of PFC Lynch and the rest of her unit, staged by the military with cameras and everything"

This strikes me as both too unimportant and too commonplace to really be concerned with it. Propaganda, to an extent, is a necessary part of a war effort, and this particular piece did not hurt anyone, did not cause anyone to be hurt, and did not cover up any wrongdoing. All it did was embellish heroics, which every single person in here has done describing something they did drunk.

7/27/2007 9:02:26 PM

Quote :

"that cannot be true. every single gun on the planet has its own ballistics "fingerprint", no?"

theoretically, yes. But you'd have to recover the rounds that had hit Tillman, identify all the possible weapons that shot it, and hope the rounds hadn't been deformed. None of that is practicable in Afghanistan at the site of an intense firefight. Over time, the wearing of the barrel will change the fingerprint, so you couldn't do it on weapons from several years ago that have had thousands of rounds fired sense. Not to mention, the SAW's barrel is designed to be interchanged to prevent overheating, so tracking down the specific barrel to the specific shooter would be difficult.

Quote :

"Lynch wasnt a coward."

her gun jammed and she curled up in a ball crying instead of shooting back with another weapon or unjamming hers (slap, pull, observe, release, tap, squeeze). Her 1SG was in her vehicle and bought it, possibly because she didn't return fire, at least one other Soldier was posthumously awarded the Silver Star because of his actions in that firefight and she curled up in a ball. Maybe cowardice is too strong a term, but she could possibly have cost her fellow Soldier's their lives.

Quote :

"In fact, I'd say her testimony before Congress was brave and honest."

I'll give you that, and my opinion of her actually rose after that.

[Edited on July 27, 2007 at 10:33 PM. Reason : .]

7/27/2007 10:32:40 PM

Quote :

"her gun jammed and she curled up in a ball ..."

well, to be honest, i didn't have any knowledge of that.

assuming all of that is true (and i have no reason to believe it isn't) ... still, hindsight is not always 20/20 ... to suggest the outcome would have been different *IF* she could have successfully unjammed her weapon in time (and that's a big IF, already) is highly speculative.

I can't indict her for what may or may not have happened in the fog of war. especially when her entire unit was from a vehicle maintenance group, and not particularly trained for close infantry-style combat.

7/28/2007 2:42:23 AM

Quote :

"JCASHFAN: ^ They initially were covering up the fact that he was killed by friendly fire, thats what set this whole chain in motion. Fratricide (Tillman) and cowardice (Lynch) don't make for good PR."

I know this. What I'm saying is that it seems like this whole story is a a very convenient distraction.

7/28/2007 11:20:50 AM

from what? I can't imagine that having Pat Tillman killed in a firefight would be much of a pro-war message. Having him killed in a house fire or a car accident once he returned would be more tragic and much less of a PR event.

Quote :

"The article also reveals that "Army attorneys sent each other congratulatory e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay as the Army conducted an internal friendly-fire investigation that resulted in administrative, or non-criminal, punishments."

Duh. Standard policy of any organization is to conduct an internal investigation free of outside interference.

I'm not saying that cover-ups don't happen, but it isn't damning in and of itself. If Pat Tillman was killed of accidental fratricide in the heat of battle (and I stress accidental) then I'm not sure that careers need to be destroyed over it. Former 101st Airborne Divison and CENTCOM commander, GEN Peay, killed American Soldiers as a fire support officer when he was a lieutenant in Vietnam because of an error. I'd say he turned out to be a net asset for the United States Army.

This sort of thing happens in combat, it needs to be corrected at the level the commanders feel appropriate, but you simply cannot have service members terrified of making decisions because the wrong one will cause them to be jailed or executed.

From what I have read, Pat Tillman was opposed to the Iraq war from day one. However, I don't see how is personal opposition to the war would have justified the risk of killing him. It just doesn't make political sense. I doubt he had evidence that the Zapruder film was edited showing W's father was the gunman on the grassy knoll, I doubt he had evidence that Dick Cheney remotely controlled the aircraft that flew into the Pentagon and WTC, and I doubt he had evidence that Karl Rove personally planted (and then removed) WMD from Iraq. So what is the threat of a former football player / Ranger saying he disagrees with the Iraq war when you've already got retired 3 and 4 star generals opposing it on a daily basis?

Our government does some shady shit, I just don't think this was one of those occasions.

[Edited on July 28, 2007 at 12:01 PM. Reason : i decided I had more to say]

7/28/2007 11:42:35 AM

From all the fucked up shit going down these days.

7/28/2007 11:52:16 AM

Or it just happened as Abu Ghraib was coming to light and the army was worried about looking like a bunch of fuck ups.

7/28/2007 11:57:55 AM

Quote :

"from what? I can't imagine that having Pat Tillman killed in a firefight would be much of a pro-war message. Having him killed in a house fire or a car accident once he returned would be more tragic and much less of a PR event."

That's what I'm saying. They wanted a PR event over this. To distract us.

Like when you're a kid and your mom busts you smoking weed in your room, and is all "Why are you sitting by the window? What's going on here, mister?" What's the first thing you do? You cop to smoking cigarettes, and boy does she get upset, but at least she's not making you go to counseling and take weekly drug tests.

7/28/2007 12:09:40 PM

setemup

7/28/2007 12:21:06 PM