so they don't fight there.

(not my title, got it from digg)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070808/ap_on_el_pr/romney_iowa

Quote :

" BETTENDORF, Iowa - Republican presidential hopeful Mitt Romney on Wednesday defended his five sons' decision not to enlist in the military, saying they're showing their support for the country by "helping me get elected." ADVERTISEMENT Romney, who did not serve in Vietnam due to his Mormon missionary work and a high draft lottery number, was asked the question by an anti-war activist after a speech in which he called for "a surge of support" for U.S. forces in Iraq. Romney, the former Massachusetts governor, also saluted a uniformed soldier in the crowd and called for donations to military support organizations. Last week, he donated $25,000 to seven such organizations. "The good news is that we have a volunteer Army and that's the way we're going to keep it," Romney told some 200 people gathered in an abbey near the Mississippi River that had been converted into a hotel. "My sons are all adults and they've made decisions about their careers and they've chosen not to serve in the military and active duty and I respect their decision in that regard." He added: "One of the ways my sons are showing support for our nation is helping me get elected because they think I'd be a great president." Romney's five sons range in age from 37 to 26 and have worked as real estate developers, sports marketers and advertising executives. They are now actively campaigning for their father and have a "Five Brothers" blog on Romney's campaign Web site. Romney noted that his middle son, 36-year-old Josh, was completing a recreational vehicle tour of all 99 Iowa counties on Wednesday and said, "I respect that and respect all those and the way they serve this great country." The woman who asked the question, Rachel Griffiths, 41, of Milan, Ill., identified herself as a member of Quad City Progressive Action for the Common Good, as well as the sister of an Army major who had served in Iraq. "Of course not," Griffiths said when asked if she was satisfied with Romney's answer. "He told me the way his son shows support for our military and our nation is to buy a Winnebago and ride across Iowa and help him get elected." Rival John McCain's son, Jimmy, a 19-year-old Marine, is either in Iraq or is heading there shortly, and another son, Jack, is at the Naval Academy in Annapolis, Md. The Arizona senator is a decorated Vietnam War veteran and former POW. The town-hall-style meeting was the first of eight events scheduled for Romney just three days before the Iowa Straw Poll, a nonbinding beauty contest among the Republican presidential contenders. In the days leading up it, Romney is airing a new television ad in the state in which he encourages supporters to attend the event, portrays himself as an outsider to Washington and takes swipes at both Republicans and Democrats there. "Washington politicians in both parties have proven they can't control spending, and they won't control our borders," Romney says in the ad. "I will, but I need your help to do it." While former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, Arizona Sen. John McCain and former Tennessee Sen. Fred Thompson, who is considering a campaign are not participating, Romney has been actively organizing with the aim of gaining momentum into January's Iowa caucuses, which kick off the presidential nominating process."

8/9/2007 5:08:16 PM

americans will elect a gay black jewish woman before they elect a mormon.

...

at least, if i had my way.

8/9/2007 5:17:58 PM

Chickenhawks sending other peoples kids to die

If there was a draft, this war would end tommorow

8/9/2007 5:19:32 PM

^^Whoopi Goldberg?

^and if if was a fifth we'd all be drunk

8/9/2007 5:19:52 PM

Well, it IS more support than Gules is getting from *his* family.

8/9/2007 5:43:23 PM

^^^^ Take out the gay part, and their are statistics backing that statement. For blacks, jews, and women, it seems that poll numbers show a steady increase in the number of people willing to put them into office. Mormons, alas, have not had the same sort of lift.

8/9/2007 11:57:59 PM

alas? why alas?

the last i checked, blacks, jews, and women aren't by definition part of some lunatic brainwashing cult.

8/10/2007 12:28:48 AM

so that whole Freedom of Religion thing in the 1st Amendment....

8/10/2007 12:33:40 AM

you're free to be a cult-following idiot all you want.

and i'm free to have faith that you'll never be elected to national office outside of Utah.

8/10/2007 1:06:26 AM

so what does that have to do with "alas"?

dont people who were born a certain skin color have the same rights as someone who practices a certain religion? and as a sidenote, some people are almost born with a religion if their parents are really strict

i'm just an agnostic who has never voted and i have an outside-looking-in opinion, what do i know

8/10/2007 1:12:10 AM

Wow, I'm surprised that this became an issue. Someone confronted him because his sons never served in the military? What's the big deal about that?

Quote :

"alas? why alas?"

I guess because they would like to see an America where people were a little more tolerant of other's religious beliefs.


[Edited on August 10, 2007 at 9:42 AM. Reason : -]

8/10/2007 9:40:14 AM

Mormonism isn't so much a religion as a bat-shit insane lifestyle.

And I seriously couldn't ever vote for someone who opted into it.

8/10/2007 9:49:52 AM

you know this shit doesn't matter right?

they picked Bush over McCain, and then effectively aired out everything in the world to discredit Kerry's service in Nam.


all that matters is that the 51% of the country is made to belive that 'Democrat' = 'omfg commie!'

8/10/2007 10:09:18 AM

Quote :

"Mormonism isn't so much a religion as a bat-shit insane lifestyle"

you could say that about any religion..i thought you were supposedly tolerant? just selectively I guess

8/10/2007 10:12:57 AM

I don't like Scientology or Salafism, either.

OMG I'M INTOLERANT

8/10/2007 10:37:34 AM

I'd vote for him before I would vote for Hillary or Obama (since they're commies )

8/10/2007 10:39:23 AM

As long as Hillary doesn't win, I don't really care at this point.

8/10/2007 11:12:35 AM

Why is Hillary the worst candidate in the race?

I don't really like her, but I don't get all the hating.

8/10/2007 11:24:32 AM

I don't like Nazis.

I'M INTOLERANT!!!

8/10/2007 11:26:28 AM

Mormon != Scientology != Salafism != Nazi ... atleast I haven't heard of any Mormons poisoning people for leaving their organization, or setting up roadside bombs, or killing all non-Mormons.

On a side note:



I don't like celery.

I'M INTOLERANT!!!

8/10/2007 11:35:03 AM

so Mormons = Nazis now

awesome analogy

I'm sure a lot of you chuckleheads probably hate Mormonism more than radical jihadist Islam too

8/10/2007 11:35:45 AM

Godwin's Law!

8/10/2007 1:14:51 PM

there should be another law which says that joe_schmoe will be the first to gleefully shout
Godwin's Law !

[Edited on August 10, 2007 at 5:46 PM. Reason : .]

8/10/2007 5:45:46 PM

Quote :

"Wow, I'm surprised that this became an issue. Someone confronted him because his sons never served in the military? What's the big deal about that?"

The point the anti-war activist was trying to make is that military service is largely lacking in the people who are most aggressively encouraging military intervention in other nations. For example:

* Former Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-KY - did not serve (1)
* Former Senate Assistant Minority Leader Trent Lott, R-MI - avoided the draft, did not serve.
* Senate Republican Conference Chairman Jon Kyl, R-AZ - did not serve.
* National Republican Senatorial Committee Chair John Ensign, R-NV - did not serve.
* House Minority Leader John Boehner, R-OH - did not serve.
* House Minority Whip Roy Blunt, R-MO - did not serve.
* House Republican Conerence Chair Adam Putnam, R-FL - did not serve.
* House Republican Policy Committee Thaddeus McCotter, R-MI - did not serve.
* National Republican Congressional Committee Chair Tom Cole, R-OK - did not serve.
* Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani - did not serve.
* Former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney - did not serve in the military but did serve the Mormon Church on a 30-month mission to France.
* Former Senator Fred Thompson - did not serve.
* Former Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert - avoided the draft, did not serve.
* Former House Majority Leader Dick Armey - avoided the draft, did not serve.
* Former House Majority Leader Tom Delay - avoided the draft, did not serve
* Former House Majority Whip Roy Blunt - did not serve
* Rick Santorum, R-PA, formerly third ranking Republican in the Senate - did not serve.
* VP Cheney - several deferments
* Jeb Bush, Florida Governor - did not serve.
* Karl Rove - avoided the draft, did not serve
* Former Speaker Newt Gingrich - avoided the draft, did not serve (1, 2)
* Paul Wolfowitz - did not serve.
* George Will, did not serve
* Bill O'Reilly, did not serve
* Bill Bennett, Did not serve
* Rush Limbaugh, did not serve
* Bill Kristol, did not serve
* Sean Hannity, did not serve.

I found this funny though:
* James Carville, a.k.a. "Corporal Cueball" - Served in the United States Marine Corps, 1966-'68. (1)
* Markos Moulitsas, a.k.a. the Daily "Kos" (leading liberal blogger) - Served in the United States Army, 1989-'92. (1)
* Pat Robertson - claimed during 1986 campaign to be a "combat veteran." In reality, was a "Liquor Officer."
source: http://www.awolbush.com/whoserved.html

They had other names in there, but I edited it to those who directly called for war on a national level or who were in a position to vote for it. I'm not saying the military service automatically qualifies you , or that lack thereof automatically disqualifies you, but a healthy mix of military veterans and full time civilians would be nice.

[Edited on August 12, 2007 at 6:20 PM. Reason : *]

8/12/2007 6:18:51 PM

Quote :

"I'm not saying the military service automatically qualifies you , or that lack thereof automatically disqualifies you, but a healthy mix of military veterans and full time civilians would be nice."

well put.

i found it interesting that such overwhelming numbers of the so-called neocons and other war hawks who loudly sounded the drums of war had never served in the military, and many went to extraordinary lengths to avoid the vietnam draft. while a large number of people urging caution and restraint and diplomacy were the most highly decorated combat veterans.

8/12/2007 11:42:32 PM

Romney is a smarmier Republican version of John Kerry without the military experience and Washington pedigree

he's a loser and he will not be elected

McCain all the way

He walks the walk

he served in Vietnam and now his son is serving in Iraq

he lobbied for campaign finance reform and co-sponsored a bill (now a law) to make it happen

you can disagree w/ his policies all you want but he is probably the only candidate who is not completely self-serving

proof: he supported a war and a surge that looked utterly hopeless, knowing that by doing so he was putting himself behind the 8-ball in his presidential aspirations-------------------------------->
He did this not because he felt it would help his chances of being elected, but because he felt it was the right thing for the country. How rare is this in today's political landscape? Politicians often support policies they think are right and which carry support from a majority of the voting public, but rarely do they risk their political fortunes on policies with very little possibility of support from the public. Please read Profiles in Courage by JFK if you want a better idea of what I am talking about.

As far as I can tell he is the only candidate who has truly proven he puts his country above his own political hopes and dreams. Please prove me wrong and show me there are other candidates like this, as it will give me more than one person to consider voting for.

McCain is a Washington insider who hasn't lost his outsider's sense of right and wrong.

McCain FTW (even though I think he's a long shot)[/u][u]

8/13/2007 11:55:17 PM

^ its nice that you're still standing by your guy, even though any credible shot as a candidate has disintegrated.

i liked McCain a lot. and would have totally voted for him in 2000.

but i saw his presidential aspirations crash the moment he brought out that toy lightsaber to Star Wars background music while stumping ahead of the SC primary. he styled himself as a rebel "fighting the Evil Empire" ... Bush's solid GOP backing.

the worst part was watching him swing that toy lightsaber around, what with his handicap from years of torture by the Viet Cong, so he can't really raise his arms much above his waist.

:painfully-embarrassing:

8/14/2007 12:40:17 AM

Quote :

"atleast I haven't heard of any Mormons poisoning people for leaving their organization, or setting up roadside bombs, or killing all non-Mormons. "

clearly you've never heard of the massacre committed by Mormons in Utah back in the day. I believe the leaders of the massacre even went as far up the chain as Brigham Young...

8/16/2007 10:57:10 PM

There were plenty of clashes between the US Federal government and the Mormons back in the day. They don't have a perfectly clean history.

8/16/2007 10:59:10 PM

i wanna know why it fucking matters whether his children are serving or not. the only thing that matters is HIS policy, HIS ideas, HIS goals for presidency. whether his family serves or not, that's each and every family member's decision. i will not vote for romney, but i'll be god damned if i hold the fact that his children are not serving against him

8/17/2007 1:47:10 AM

OK, well for one, his policies suck and he's shadier than Hillary by a long shot, but to the point . . . The issue isn't specifically the fact that the seed of Romney isn't in the military, it is the fact that almost every neo-conservative has neither served in the military, nor encouraged their children to serve in the military. I mean, Democrats get criticized all the time for spending other peoples money, in this case the neo-cons are spending other peoples lives. How fucking hypocritical is that?

If THEIR policy, and THEIR ideas, and THEIR goals for the presidency mean that much to them, then you'd expect at least some of them to put their money where their mouth is instead of moving themselves and their offspring into self-serving positions where they reap benefits off other peoples sweat and blood.

8/17/2007 8:04:47 AM

Quote :

"whether his family serves or not, that's each and every family member's decision."

because the decisions he and his family makes speak to their character and their commitment to serving the country. The problem isn't so much that they aren't in the army, but that he would be so enormously arrogant to equate working for him with working for the country.

and damn, you'd think that question would be on the short list of things a presidential hopeful should have a prepped answer for.

8/17/2007 9:00:18 AM

Quote :

"because the decisions he and his family makes speak to their character and their commitment to serving the country."

well put

8/17/2007 9:41:31 AM

Quote :

"Democrats get criticized all the time for spending other peoples money, in this case the neo-cons are spending other peoples lives."

also well put

8/18/2007 2:10:25 AM

Quote :

"so Mormons = Nazis now"

I wasn't equating Nazis with Mormons. I was pointing out that they're both large ideological organizations, and while I think few people aside from salisburyboy would cry intolerance at the criticism of one, a good deal more would take issue with the same type of stance towards the other.

All the Mormons I have met have been super nice people, but the Church of Latter-Day Saints has done some really fucked up shit in the past, and it still does to this day. Yes, this could be said for many religions--having grown up in North Carolina has certainly made me accept plenty of crazy shit from all sorts of fundamentalists, for instance, that somebody from somewhere else would be far less accustomed to.

I'll give you an example, and it's been brought up in countless Mormon-related threads before, but the church has a horrible history in dealing with black people.

Quote :

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so."

Quote :

"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind....Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin."

The church did not, until 1978, allow black people to become priests, and they were unable to marry in the temple, which, in their religion, was a huge deal and a prerequisite for the highest level of salvation. In 1978, in the form of a simultaneous revelation to the Quorum of the 12 Apostles, God told them that it was okay to let black people get married now.

Now, you can have your own religion and talk about how evil the darkies are and how God cursed them with stupidity and bad hygiene, but don't think for a minute that you can do that with total immunity because it's part of your religion. Plenty of people have used religion to excuse their bigotry, hatred, and greed, and it's one hundred per cent completely fucking inexcusable. If that makes me "intolerant", then so be it.

8/18/2007 2:58:27 AM

Oh, and one more thing.

Quote :

"I'm sure a lot of you chuckleheads probably hate Mormonism more than radical jihadist Islam too"

I don't, actually. That being said, on September 11, 1857, a group on Mormons massacred about 120 men, women, and children in a wagon train largely due to their fears that the United States government was invading their territory in order to get rid of their theocracy. So...uh...yeah.

8/18/2007 3:07:50 AM

self defense ...


but as I think everyone can agree, not related to Romney running for president, or his sons campaigning for him


It took many organizations and churches ... even government ... until the 60s and later to give basic rights to African Americans, not just the mormon church. I think you will find that mormons are very accepting of blacks, and present mormons look down upon racist treatment by individual members... This is just my personal experience though. There are probably tons of racist mormons out there though, too, just like there are in regular society.

Its interesting to see the level of behavioral expectations that Mormons are held to by society ... as its supposed to be a church full of perfect people or something.

[Edited on August 18, 2007 at 2:22 PM. Reason : .]

8/18/2007 2:15:09 PM

I think we all need to realize that serving the country by serving working in the military today is not the same as back in ww1, ww2, vietnam, ect.

The military leaders have made the military into a JOB, not a service opportunity.

Outside of people trying to make a statement about their character outwardly to others, you dont see very many people working in the military who are doing it for "service" ... It puts less advantaged adults through college, and you sometimes see people do it because its a family tradition.

I would not expect a military career/job to be a necessity for someone to be a good leader for our country. Helpful, yes for just a few reasons. It just doesnt work as a true measuring stick of ones patriotism for his/her country.

Would any of you hillary supporters expect her to have served in the military?? I doubt it. Would you expect her daughter to have served?? I doubt.

All Im saying is that we should keep this concept in perspective with the role that military service really plays in our lives today and in our society... its just not what it used to be.

8/18/2007 2:30:51 PM

Quote :

"I think we all need to realize that serving the country by serving working in the military today is not the same as back in ww1, ww2, vietnam, ect. The military leaders have made the military into a JOB, not a service opportunity."

I'd be interested in seeing where you came up with this.

Of course our senior military leaders are professional Soldiers, your average General has close to 30 years in, if he didn't chose to make it a career then he wouldn't have stayed in that long. This, in no way, changes the fact that most senior military leaders do their job because they love it and believe in it. Base pay for a 4-star General / Admiral is < $200k a year. Granted there are perks, but they're making nothing near what they could make in the civilian sector in charge of an equivalent number of people. Having a job that is also a service opportunity isn't mutually exclusive.

Quote :

"Outside of people trying to make a statement about their character outwardly to others, you dont see very many people working in the military who are doing it for "service""

You'd be surprised. I won't even pretend that they are in the majority, but there are a fair number of people who are in it because they believe in what they are doing.

Quote :

"All Im saying is that we should keep this concept in perspective with the role that military service really plays in our lives today and in our society... its just not what it used to be."

Just because the whole country hasn't been mobilized for this war, don't underestimate the sacrifices that those who volunteered are enduring.

[Edited on August 19, 2007 at 4:49 PM. Reason : /]

8/19/2007 4:47:24 PM

^ I didn't mean to sound like those serving dont endure a lot right now, as I do appreciate that we have a strong military, and those who choose to do that for their jobs...

BUT ... Remember that those generals and leaders today did not grow up in the same circumstances as we are seeing today.

In society 30-40 years ago, serving in the military was a HUGE option for many many people, and I think its safe to say that most young men during that era considered it seriously because it was a respected choice. HOWEVER... It has become a default career choice for many who do not have other options, do to either grades in HS, or money for college. I think ROTC is a great program, and would not want to see it go away.

I just think we as a society do not respect the choice of military as we did back 30-40 years ago. I know that out of my high school class, I can only think of 1 person that went to military school, and the rest of us with good grades and college futures went to regular 4 year colleges. That says something about how we have changed over the past 40 years, and I think it speaks to the idea that there is not the same respect for those who choose military, mostly, in my opinion, because we as a country have lost our patriotism and respect for what others have done to make America what it is today. Instead of putting blame on a candidates kids, we should be rethinking as a society how our ideals have taken us away from our patriotic past.

8/19/2007 6:10:20 PM

Quote :

"I think we all need to realize that serving the country by serving/working in the military today is not the same as back in ww1, ww2, vietnam ... The military [has been made] into a JOB, not a service opportunity."

i think you need to learn the difference between a conscripted military and an all-volunteer force, and how these so-called "service opportunities" vary in each.






[Edited on August 19, 2007 at 6:45 PM. Reason : ]

8/19/2007 6:41:18 PM

^^ I'm not sure if you're being condescending or observant, but I certainly had plenty of options when I graduated and still chose the Army, it was not a default option and I think you do a disservice by assuming it is. I've addressed this before, but to assume that poor people join the military because they have no other option is to ignore the far greater numbers who chose not to join and remain in whatever economically depressed part of the nation they call home.

Quote :

"That says something about how we have changed over the past 40 years, and I think it speaks to the idea that there is not the same respect for those who choose military, mostly, in my opinion, because we as a country have lost our patriotism and respect for what others have done to make America what it is today. Instead of putting blame on a candidates kids, we should be rethinking as a society how our ideals have taken us away from our patriotic past."

With this, I agree. At some point in the last few decades, we have ceased to define ourselves by what we produce and now define ourselves by what we consume.

The point of this thread in the first place, however, was exactly what you're pointing out, people no longer value service to anyone but themselves. The result is people who are committing lives and resources without a grasp of the ramifications of their jingoistic decisions.

8/19/2007 8:14:03 PM

It's more than just a decline in respect...

I was chilling with a couple friends earlier today and I said that I wanted to join the military. And both my friends got up in my face like, "Why would you do that? That's so fucking stupid." They were disgusted by me, and I wasn't even serious about joining.

8/20/2007 2:52:23 AM

i think part of that attitude is the lack of respect our elected officials give to the military. they are entrusted with the power to use the military only when absolutely necessary and here we are stretched thin on a war that was in no way necessary and started on a string of lies.

8/20/2007 9:16:49 AM

Heh. Out of all the countries in the world, the military and military careers are probably the most respected in the US.

8/20/2007 9:27:34 AM

^^^^ I wasnt trying to be condescending, but rather just stating what I observe. I realize that there are many many exceptions, and there are still those today join the military for reasons other that that it will put you through college, or to get out of a life of poverty ... I just think that there are many many people out there who dont see it as an option for them, and look down at it as an "only escape" for those that dont have direction/means to choose another path... Lets be honest, even the military recruiters see it this way. Have you seen the recent commercial, a young African American boy, speaking to his mother about the opportunity to go to college ... and even she is critical at first, and he has to convince her that its a good opportunity for him to become somebody... Who do you really think the military is marketing this to? Definitely not those who can afford to go to college.

Quote :

"i think part of that attitude is the lack of respect our elected officials give to the military. they are entrusted with the power to use the military only when absolutely necessary and here we are stretched thin on a war that was in no way necessary and started on a string of lies."

Thats nice and all, and drives emotions out of hiliary disciples, but Im pretty sure a large majority of Americans were behind the president in his decision, so lets not put EVERYBODY involved in military and government at blame here for the decision to go to war ... and thats a whole different thread anyway, but I do think that the main point of your statement is true ... There is just not the same respect for the military soldiers as there once was.

8/20/2007 3:50:22 PM

Quote :

"i think you need to learn the difference between a conscripted military and an all-volunteer force, and how these so-called "service opportunities" vary in each."

So you think that those who were in the army before the drafts started weren't "serving their country"??

This thread in no way refers to those that were forced to be in the army. Thats not service, for sure. Thats just bad luck, unless you are someone who wanted to serve anyway, and they would have signed up without draft...

What I was referring to was the difference between volunteer soldiers 40 years ago, and volunteer soldiers pre 9/11 ... Very different demographic.

8/20/2007 3:53:32 PM

well does that speak poorly of the Soldier or of the citizenry as a whole?

8/20/2007 5:05:58 PM

def citizenry

people just suck more now than they used to

8/20/2007 9:09:26 PM