TSB's been kinda dry lately so I thought I'd throw out some bait for debate.

Here's his platform (as per wikipedia):

Quote :

" * Creating a single-payer system of universal health care that provides full coverage for all Americans by passage of the United States National Health Insurance Act. * The immediate, phased withdrawal of all U.S. forces from Iraq; replacing them with an international security force. * Guaranteed quality education for all; including free pre-kindergarten and college for all who want it. * Immediate withdrawal from the World Trade Organization (WTO) and North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA). * Repealing the USA PATRIOT Act. * Fostering a world of international cooperation. * Abolishing the death penalty. * Environmental renewal and clean energy. * Preventing the privatization of social security. * Providing full social security benefits at age 65. * Creating a cabinet-level "Department of Peace" * Ratifying the ABM Treaty and the Kyoto Protocol. * Introducing reforms to bring about instant-runoff voting. * Protecting a woman's right to choose while decreasing the number of abortions performed in the U.S. * Ending the war on drugs. * Legalizing same-sex marriage. * Creating a balance between workers and corporations. * Ending the H1B and L1 Visa Programs * Restoring rural communities and family farms. * Strengthening gun control. "

He's been picking up quite a following recently and is apparently being pushed out of the limelight because of his success. http://digg.com/2008_us_elections/ABC_News_Censors_Poll_Because_Kucinich_Won

I don't agree with everything he says but he doesn't seem to be a horrible guy.


Could he be the candidate that comes out of nowhere to blast past the main 2 (or 3) and lose the presidential election for the democrats?

9/5/2007 8:41:47 AM

He's basically the Democrats' Ron Paul.

Or, rather, Ron Paul is the Republicans' Dennis Kucinich.

I'll vote for him in the primaries, like always, just like I'll vote for Free Ice Cream Day if I'm ever given the chance.

9/5/2007 8:57:36 AM

The thing that worries me about his policies are gun control (the man says he carries a pocket constitution around everywhere, does it have the bill of rights in it as well??) and department of peace just sounds cheese and unneeded.

9/5/2007 9:02:23 AM

^^^he's not a horrible guy. in fact, from what i know of him, he seems to be a pretty good guy.

but his political views are fucking awful...like, possibly worst in Washington. how anyone could think that half that shit is a good idea baffles me. i have no idea how such an extremist, socialist, hanging-off-the-left-edge guy could get elected to the Congress from ANYWHERE other than MAYBE somewhere like San Francisco. The idea that people want this guy to be PRESIDENT is politically terrifying (but no, to answer your question, he isn't going to win anything. a few misguided souls will cast symbolic votes for him in the primaries, but he's ultimately no factor).


^^ i've heard a couple people suggest that they'd like to see those two as running mates. Clearly the people who said that had Downs' Syndrome, because that's like saying they'd like to see President Bush fire Dick Cheney and replace him with Michael Moore.

Quote :

"the man says he carries a pocket constitution around everywhere"

Yeah, I have no doubt that he carries a copy of the Constitution in his pocket. I bet it has a dick-sized hole in it.

[Edited on September 5, 2007 at 9:23 AM. Reason : asdfasd]

9/5/2007 9:19:08 AM

His views that I think are far left:


* Abolishing the death penalty.
* Creating a cabinet-level "Department of Peace"
* Ratifying the ABM Treaty and the Kyoto Protocol. (maybe)
* Legalizing same-sex marriage.
* Ending the H1B and L1 Visa Programs (or is this far right? wtf)
* Strengthening gun control.


Things that I think most americans agree with and want:

* Creating a single-payer system of universal health care that provides full coverage for all Americans by passage of the United States National Health Insurance Act.
* The immediate, phased withdrawal of all U.S. forces from Iraq; replacing them with an international security force.
* Guaranteed quality education for all; including free pre-kindergarten and college for all who want it.
* Immediate withdrawal from the World Trade Organization (WTO) and North American Free Trade Ag* Environmental renewal and clean energy.
* Preventing the privatization of social security.
* Providing full social security benefits at age 65.reement (NAFTA).
* Protecting a woman's right to choose while decreasing the number of abortions performed in the U.S.
* Creating a balance between workers and corporations.

9/5/2007 9:23:52 AM

Quote :

"* ratifying the Kyoto Protocol. (maybe) * Ending the H1B and L1 Visa Programs (or is this far right? wtf) * Strengthening gun control."

And only these would actually mean a significant change in anything.

9/5/2007 9:37:55 AM

Fuck the Kyoto Accords

9/5/2007 9:47:12 AM

Quote :

"Fuck the Kyoto Accords"

Nice well thought out post there.

Quote :

"And only these would actually mean a significant change in anything."

Are you referring to what I classified as his far left positions or all of his positions? I consider leaving the WTO and NAFTA a pretty big deal. Same with healthcare.

9/5/2007 9:49:13 AM

Quote :

"and department of peace just sounds cheese and unneeded."

Eh, along with reducing military spending, that's one of his best idea.

I don't really agree with him on a lot things (immigration, gun control, etc), but I'd vote for anyone brave enough to call for cuts in military spending.

9/5/2007 10:19:22 AM

he's got about the same chance of winning as bush does of getting re-elected

9/5/2007 10:24:09 AM

He won't get elected, but hopefully some of his ideas will get pushed into the mainstream. I think people are really unhappy with NAFTA/WTO/etc. and it's nice to have someone saying publicly that we should get out.

Also nice to see someone saying 'let's keep abortion legal but reduce actual abortion numbers.'

He seems to hit the root of problems instead of just attacking the result of the problems which just creates another problem somewhere else down the line.

9/5/2007 10:36:35 AM

i agree with all of his non-socialist ideas.

9/5/2007 10:42:27 AM

* Creating a single-payer system of universal health. -- fiscal disaster
* The immediate, phased withdrawal of all U.S. forces from Iraq; -- will take a minimum of 20 months replacing them with an international security force. -- from where?
* Guaranteed quality education for all; including free pre-kindergarten and college for all who want it. -- this is a state, not a national issue
* Immediate withdrawal from the World Trade Organization (WTO) and North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA). -- economic disaster
* Repealing the USA PATRIOT Act. -- I wholeheartedly agree with this one
* Fostering a world of international cooperation. -- empty platitude
* Abolishing the death penalty. -- indifferent on this one
* Environmental renewal and clean energy. -- good idea, devil is in the details
* Preventing the privatization of social security. -- SS needs reform . . . this seems to be the opposite, collapse is going to happen sooner or later
* Providing full social security benefits at age 65. -- see above
* Creating a cabinet-level "Department of Peace" -- ummmmm, oooohhhkkkkaaaayyyyy, to do what?
* Ratifying the ABM Treaty and the Kyoto Protocol. -- congresses job, not his
* Introducing reforms to bring about instant-runoff voting. -- not sure what this is
* Protecting a woman's right to choose while decreasing the number of abortions performed in the U.S. -- sure, why not
* Ending the war on drugs. -- wholeheartedly agree
* Legalizing same-sex marriage. -- rather see gov't get out of the business of marriage all together
* Creating a balance between workers and corporations. -- don't disagree, how?
* Ending the H1B and L1 Visa Programs -- im an ignorant boob on this one
* Restoring rural communities and family farms. -- cool, how?
* Strengthening gun control. -- rural communities and farmers (generally) like guns

9/5/2007 10:43:30 AM

speaking of Dennis Kucinich....

is Lyndon LaRouche going to run this year?

9/5/2007 12:42:09 PM

Back in 04 my roommate was a diehard republican. He's toned down quite a bit since, but at that point he had a framed picture of Ronald Reagan in his room.

As a joke I went to every democratic candidate's website and signed him up for newsletters and weekly emails. Every campaign sent him a letter thanking for his support and telling him how to get in touch with his local democratic party.

Except for Dennis Kucinich. He sent him a box full of lawn signs, bumpers stickers, pins, and pretty much two of anything else that they could think to put Kucinich on. It seemed a bit desperate to me.

We lived in the house with the yard full of Kucinich signs after that.

9/5/2007 12:47:31 PM

^^ no, there was a thread about it somewhere.

9/5/2007 1:22:48 PM

* Creating a single-payer system of universal health care that provides full coverage for all Americans by passage of the United States National Health Insurance Act. - I can see it happening.

* The immediate, phased withdrawal of all U.S. forces from Iraq; replacing them with an international security force. - A nice fantasy, but as stated earlier, where are you going to find an international security force? Not the UN. The only two I can think of is either a coalition of Middle Eastern nations (I doubt they'd go along with it, except maybe Iran which is a whole different issue) or hire mercenaries (a not so palatable option given the whole Blackwater thing).

* Guaranteed quality education for all; including free pre-kindergarten and college for all who want it. - A nice idea, but I'd be curious to see how he implements it given that education is pretty much constitutionally controlled by the states.

* Immediate withdrawal from the World Trade Organization (WTO) and North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA). - Our withdrawal from the WTO isn't going to kill it; if anything, it'll just further cut us off from international markets. NAFTA might be interesting.

* Repealing the USA PATRIOT Act. - No problems there.

* Fostering a world of international cooperation. - No problems there theoretically, but given how vague that plank is, I wonder what he intends to foster cooperation on...

* Abolishing the death penalty. - State issue.

* Environmental renewal and clean energy. - Not a bad idea. I'm all about more research.

* Preventing the privatization of social security. - No problems.

* Providing full social security benefits at age 65. - With money from...?

* Creating a cabinet-level "Department of Peace" - And what would such a department do that's not covered by the State department?

* Ratifying the ABM Treaty and the Kyoto Protocol. - No objections.

* Introducing reforms to bring about instant-runoff voting. - No objections, but again, its a state issue, so I'm curious how he'd go about it.

* Protecting a woman's right to choose while decreasing the number of abortions performed in the U.S. - I can live with that.

* Ending the war on drugs. - Nice in theory, but what would you replace it with? Legalization? Treatment?

* Legalizing same-sex marriage. _ State issue.

* Creating a balance between workers and corporations. - And how...?

* Ending the H1B and L1 Visa Programs - I can understand the instinct that drives this, but killing these visas isn't going to fix the root problem.

* Restoring rural communities and family farms. - And how...? More subsidies that harm third world nations?

* Strengthening gun control. - Meh.

9/5/2007 2:34:39 PM

Quote :

"* Abolishing the death penalty. - State issue."

Not for federal crimes.

9/5/2007 3:15:01 PM

I think if the US withdrew from the WTO that popular pressure in other countries (especially in Europe) would push them to withdraw as well.

9/5/2007 3:27:15 PM

duh. sorry missed other post.

[Edited on September 5, 2007 at 3:36 PM. Reason : .]

9/5/2007 3:35:46 PM

too liberal for me

Disagreements

Quote :

"Creating a single-payer system of universal health care that provides full coverage for all Americans by passage of the United States National Health Insurance Act."

why should i have to work my ass off and pay $texas in taxes so some poor woman can hit up the emergency room every time one of her 10 children catches the flu

Quote :

"* Guaranteed quality education for all; including free pre-kindergarten and college for all who want it."

Pre-Kindergarten exists it is called fucking pre-school. shell out the $$ for pre-school, find a baby sitter, or actually be a mother and stay at home with your kid till they are school age.

Quote :

"* Immediate withdrawal from the World Trade Organization (WTO) and North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA)."

Sounds like a bad idea to me

Quote :

"* Restoring rural communities and family farms."

Farmers should not have to be subsidized.

agreements

Quote :

"* The immediate, phased withdrawal of all U.S. forces from Iraq; replacing them with an international security force."

Quote :

"* Repealing the USA PATRIOTFacism Act."

thank goodness

Quote :

"* Environmental renewal and clean energy."

it would be great having a non-oil friendly president in the white house

Quote :

"* Ending the war on drugs."

war on drugs is a waste of time and money while putting while otherwise law abiding citizens in jail with hardened criminals. Constitutional rights are often given the ole screw job in order to "fight the war". Glad someone realizes the war on drugs is stupid and causes more problems then solves.

Quote :

"* Creating a balance between workers and corporations."

I do believe the gov't should have more of a hands off approach to economics. Steps should be taken though to ensure that corporations are not taking advantage of and abusing the populace. The current administrations seems to very corporate friendly while disregarding the avg citizen

[Edited on September 5, 2007 at 3:43 PM. Reason : l]

[Edited on September 5, 2007 at 3:44 PM. Reason : l]

9/5/2007 3:40:12 PM

Quote :

"Creating a single-payer system of universal health care that provides full coverage for all Americans by passage of the United States National Health Insurance Act"

full coverage = waiting in the "back of the line" if you dont pay extra?

also theres an inevitable tax increase for everyone to subsidize this

9/5/2007 3:56:49 PM

Quote :

" also theres an inevitable tax increase for everyone to subsidize this"

As well as an inevitable lack of healthcare bill to pay. The cost just gets transferred. No big deal here, move along.

9/5/2007 3:58:51 PM

The costs get transfered but the system doesn't change.

Instead of overpaying your private insurance, you overpay the fed.

[Edited on September 5, 2007 at 4:07 PM. Reason : and competition goes from some to none.]

9/5/2007 4:07:24 PM

unless of course you want to get health care in a timely manner in which case you'll have to pay extra

oh and i hope you're not obese...because if you're obese, that shows that you're not one of the healthiest people, so you'll be given the lowest priority...hope you can stand to wait a few weeks for that "free" emergency surgery

maybe we can do like canada..."free" healthcare...but lets pay 45% income tax and 15% sales tax...that sure sounds like a great deal!

[Edited on September 5, 2007 at 4:08 PM. Reason : .]

9/5/2007 4:08:02 PM

^ exactly

Quote :

"As well as an inevitable lack of healthcare bill to pay."

As a healthy 22yr old I do not have hardly any health bills to pay. So basically my hardwork and money goes to pay all the rediculous health expenses of people who smoke a pack a day, morbidly obese, crack whores who need to take each of their 10 children to the EMR every time they get the flu.

The only way I would break even is when I get older or if something catastrophic happened. I believe in natural selection. Even if someone does not have the "best" genes or behavioral adaption if they have the $$$ then they are fit for survival

9/5/2007 4:18:31 PM

Quote :

"I believe in natural selection. Even if someone does not have the "best" genes or behavioral adaption if they have the $$$ then they are fit for survival"

So do you believe in the complete dissolution of the United States government? Then, much more so than in the current climate, would natural selection be allowed to take place.

9/5/2007 5:17:03 PM

Quote :

"maybe we can do like canada..."free" healthcare...but lets pay 45% income tax and 15% sales tax...that sure sounds like a great deal!"

I pay 25% federal income tax, 7% state income tax, 7% sales tax, plus $100 / month for medical insurance. And I'm extremely lucky to only be paying $100 / month for medical. That's insanely low for the type of coverage I have (no deductible) for a family. The national average for a family of 4 is just under $1k / month. I'd wager that the Canadian plan is as cheap or cheaper than what most people pay on the whole in the US.

9/5/2007 5:35:10 PM

but how is it worth paying double income taxes and double sales tax on everything you buy...when you still have to pay for health care if you want any kind of timely service?

9/5/2007 5:36:52 PM

Maybe because it would give coverage to about 50 million people who currently don't have it. It's a concept called compassion which it seems a lot of people in this country are lacking these days.

9/5/2007 7:57:09 PM

There are some things I like about Kucinich and Gravel (especially with gay marriage, since I'd like to get one of those before I'm too old for it to matter much), but they are unelectable in terms of popularity, in terms of broad/bi-partisan support, and in terms of fundraising and I care about more than just that one issue. Although I think these 2 will do well amongst the left side of single issue voters.

My money, literally and figuratively, is behind Edwards whose ideas I like on Iraq with supporting the troops by bringing them home (start pulling out immediately, but not too fast, maintaining a small level, and not completely cutting out some neighbors that would have interests in a stable Iraq), closing gitmo, ending unnecessary spying on Americans, investing in alternative energy to cut off our shackles to the middle east, poverty, healthcare (universal w/ some focus on preventative care), education, and civil unions (as compared to Obama & especially to Hillary) amongst other issues.

If I had to choose between Kucinich and most of the republicans out there, it’d be Kucinich. But if I had to choose between Kucinich and most of the democrats out there, he wouldn’t be on the top of my list.

As far as universal health care goes, I think if done right it could help a lot of people without being a huge burden. It’s the gov, so obviously there will be buracracy which isn't always a bad thing, infact that point of buracracy is to be more efficient, but hopefully if it was just one overarching system there wouldn’t be too much red tape. And prevention can be cheaper than treatment of a problem later. But I wont go into that too much since there’s already a thread discussing that here:
http://thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=492739

In the end, maybe his idea’s will have helped shift the debate, and get people to consider options they hadn’t before, but I doubt when all this is over that he has the fancy eagle rug in his office.

[Edited on September 5, 2007 at 9:53 PM. Reason : .]

9/5/2007 9:34:04 PM

Quote :

"HUR : As a healthy 22yr old I do not have hardly any health bills to pay."

yeah, and you'll be 22 forever, too

Quote :

"So basically my hard work and money goes to pay ..."

you're a fucking suburban frat boy in your senior year of college. WHEN HAVE YOU DONE A DAY OF HARD WORK IN YOUR LIFE???

all you've done is sit around on your ass talking shit about how you get all the cash and hoes. at a state-subsidized public college, no less, so mummy and daddy aren't even paying the full value of your education.

Quote :

"I believe in natural selection. ... if they have the $$$ then they are fit for survival"

so are you a social Darwinist, or just a neo-Calvinist using scientific-sounding terms?

I swear to Christ every TKE fuckwit i've met needs a good punch in the head.

9/5/2007 9:40:16 PM

Quote :

"Maybe because it would give coverage to about 50 million people who currently don't have it. It's a concept called compassion which it seems a lot of people in this country are lacking these days."

Maybe if a lot of those 50 million people understood the concept of work they wouldn't have this problem

9/5/2007 10:14:54 PM

Yes, because no one has bad luck, hard times, etc. They're ALL just stupid lazy fucks that are undeserving of human compassion, fuck them.

9/5/2007 10:17:27 PM

Quote :

"Maybe if a lot of those 50 million people understood the concept of work they wouldn't have this problem"

Could you explain this concept to me? Personally, I find it rather baffling.

9/5/2007 10:19:30 PM

^^Life isn't fair so I should give half of the money that I make to people who have bad luck?

Maybe I should quit my job and live off your money...thats the way to build a productive society

9/5/2007 10:22:27 PM

Life isn't fair, you're right. Sometimes life gives people disabilities, or maybe makes people depressed for a while. That doesn't mean we should take a collective shit on everyone in the nation who is having a hard time with life, even if they are "lazy".

The Protestant work ethic has seriously fucked up a lot of things the US could have done right. For some reason it's in our so ingrained in our culture to have to struggle and make it on our own that, god forbid, if you fall on hard times, well, that's your own damn problem. I think this type of thinking is why so many people are against social programs like universal health care. "I had to struggle so why should I pay for some lazy bastard to go to the doctor." That kind of thinking is very quickly putting an end to the middle class in this nation.

If you want to quit your job and "live off my money", by all means do so. I pay my taxes happily because I realize how fortunate I am to have a great job that pays well and offers great benefits. I'm also aware (through first hand experience) that many jobs suck, pay horribly, and offer lousy benefits. I'll gladly give away some of my income through taxes and charitable donations to help people in less than desirable situations. As a matter of fact I'd have no issue paying more taxes if the government could get their act together and create sustainable social programs that weren't mired up in bureaucratic red tape.

9/5/2007 10:53:25 PM

Quote :

"The Protestant work ethic has seriously fucked up a lot of things the US could have done right."

That's a bit over simplistic, because you make it seem like if it weren't for some simple religion, then the United States would've have been some great and compassionate socialist paradise. That, and the so-called Protestant work ethic is shared by Britain, Scandinavian nations, the Swiss, and the Germans, which I would think do not accurately reflect many of the criticisms you have.

What you describe, the every-man-for-himself hacking it out in society is a reflection of intrinsic characteristics of American society as a whole: our near excessive emphasis of individual liberties over the greater societal good, our frontier mentality which help bred a sense of self sufficiency, and our never ending optimism as a whole that as long as you work hard, you'll come out on top in the end. That seems to be the "problem" here.

9/6/2007 12:36:47 AM

Quote :

" Life isn't fair so I should give half of the money that I make to people who have bad luck? Maybe I should quit my job and live off your money...thats the way to build a productive society "

No one is advocating either of those things. Why would you even bring them up other than for the purpose of being full of shit?

9/6/2007 3:31:38 AM

Quote :

"Why would you even bring them up other than for the purpose of being full of shit?"

Because that's what 90% of the counterargument from these people is. They try to demonize universal healthcare and show the absolute worst stories from countries that have it and say it's the norm, then they pull out a quote from a person from a country that has universal healthcare that said they hate it. It's bullshit and they know it, but it's all they have.

We all know no system is perfect and that's why we want it changed. An overwhelming majority of Americans want fundamental reforms of healthcare and Universal healthcare is also widely supported. Opposition uses the 'evil tax' argument to scare a lot of the middle class away without telling the whole truth, and that is sad.

9/6/2007 7:22:09 AM

Quote :

"What you describe, the every-man-for-himself hacking it out in society is a reflection of intrinsic characteristics of American society as a whole: our near excessive emphasis of individual liberties over the greater societal good, our frontier mentality which help bred a sense of self sufficiency, and our never ending optimism as a whole that as long as you work hard, you'll come out on top in the end. That seems to be the "problem" here."

Talk about being overly simplistic. That's just as basic as my post.

I guess I should have specified the Calvinist work ethic / belief system instead of Protestantism on the whole, since as you said much of Europe also practices some form or Protestantism but mostly rejected Calvinism (so they ended up moving here).

And if it weren't for that "simple religion", the US wouldn't even exist.

That said, I don't want to turn this into some kind of religious debate and I'm not bashing Christians. Just saying that many people on the right who claim to be religious shun the idea of equal treatment and opportunity for basic needs, one of the major tenets of Christianity (and other religions). It pisses me off to see these holier than thou conservatives talk about their values and strong Christian faith right before they vote to cut funding for programs like CHIP.

9/6/2007 10:10:36 AM

Quote :

"Just saying that many people on the right who claim to be religious shun the idea of equal treatment and opportunity for basic needs, one of the major tenets of Christianity (and other religions). It pisses me off to see these holier than thou conservatives talk about their values and strong Christian faith right before they vote to cut funding for programs like CHIP."

Sorry, a bit trigger happy on my side as well. I guess I'm just getting sick of listening to thread after thread of people blaming the world's ills on religion itself when a majority of times, religion is simply used as a mobilizing and delivery vehicle for more intrinsic cultural values or more base ambitions. Or perhaps more to the point that religion and culture are so intrinsically intertwined, reflecting off each other, that one cannot simply "divorce" one from the other to magically solve the world's problems.

Don't blame you there though. I agree that there's a bit of a hypocrisy there. I know that some will try and justify it saying that it should be the role for non-profits and faith-based organizations doing the aid instead of the government, but that sometimes rings hollow particularly for problems that are simply too big for any coalition of NGO's to solve without government intervention.

9/6/2007 2:29:12 PM

Quote :

"Maybe because it would give coverage to about 50 million people who currently don't have it. It's a concept called compassion which it seems a lot of people in this country are lacking these days."

Quote :

"Yes, because no one has bad luck, hard times, etc. They're ALL just stupid lazy fucks that are undeserving of human compassion, fuck them."

you are right bad luck does occur and i actually support helping out these people while they find a new job esp when they have a family to take care of. The problem in my opinion on why universal health care would not work in our country is that people here tend to be a lot lazier. In Europe and especially places like Japan citizens have a more ingrained work ethic to benefit all of society. From working around a lot of Europeans at Sony Ericsson I learned they have a strong "work hard play hard" mentality.

Whereas a lot of people in this country expect to get shit handed to them their whole life. Hell there is a WHOLE sub-culture in this society that glorifies doing nothing but selling drugs, screwing bitches at the club, and any job except for being a rapper or NBA drugs means u are acting white.

Once all the white trailer trash, gangsters, and other scum of our society gets their act together. Universal Health Care would be a viable system.

Quote :

"you're a fucking suburban frat boy in your senior year of college. WHEN HAVE YOU DONE A DAY OF HARD WORK IN YOUR LIFE??? all you've done is sit around on your ass talking shit about how you get all the cash and hoes. at a state-subsidized public college, no less, so mummy and daddy aren't even paying the full value of your education."

DAMN RIGHT

9/6/2007 3:21:42 PM