Do you care?

Why or why not?

11/4/2007 1:43:37 AM

Wat?

11/4/2007 1:46:18 AM

Yes. Now this:

11/4/2007 2:00:04 AM

I care about the plight of poor people almost as much as is humanly possible

but short of the point where I would advocate "robin-hood-ism"



you know,

the same way I care about the environment almost as much as is humanly possible

but short of the point where I would advocate arson



I donate money, food, and clothes

I volunteer at the Bargin Box (I know it's for women, but my mom is co-manager, so I help out)

twice this year alone, I gave a joint roach to a bum at a highway exit (say what you will)

I have personally "coached" two opiate addicts (that come from poverty) to clean up and get their GEDs



Oh

and I don't vote Democrat

even though I've been poor, myself



of course, if someone started out not poor,

but ended up poor as a clear result of their own irresponsibility

then, no, unless they are friends or family, I do not care about their plight

you know, the same way I don't care about the plight of convicted murderers in jail



btw

because of overpopulation

and excessive government assistance

there will always be poor people



the only real way to eliminate poverty

is to discontinue the practice of "bailing out" those irresponsible few from the brink of death

as long as someone or something is there to "catch you", others won't be discouraged from being irresponsible

try feeding your dog every time they beg while simultaneously trying to get them to stop begging

(oh, and before you falsely accuse me of having just compared poor people to dogs, learn how analogies work)

11/4/2007 8:16:10 AM

^very well said.

11/4/2007 9:03:22 AM

I pretty much agree with what 392 said.

I don't know that handouts are a problem in and of themselves. I think it is important to help the less fortunate because they are members of our society, and members of a society help one another out. The problem is that we as a society do nothing to discourage or give disincentives to mooch off the system. Instead of paying for a poor man's education so he can get a degree or a technical skill and then get himself a job, we just keep giving him free housing, free food, etc. And once that poor person starts making above a certain amount of money, he no longer qualifies, so why is he ever going to even try to improve his lot when he's already getting a free ride? He may not be living like a rock star, but why would anyone willingly give up free food and free housing?

People worry about leeches, but I think that there will always be those sorts of people no matter what configuration we come up with. That doesn't mean we should just ignore everybody's plight. But while we can come up with ways to discourage or prevent leeching, I think we won't see any real change until we as a country change our collective attitude. Everybody in this country seems to have this sense of entitlement, that they can have whatever they want without any of the work because it's somehow intrinsically "owed" to them. This mentality is basically summed up as: "people owe me free shit because I'm a victim. I think I'm completely helpless and I don't see why I should have to put in any effort. I don't owe anyone anything, but everyone else has to subsidize my fantasy lifestyle."

We need to stop lying to ourselves . We need to wake up and accept the fact that you have to put in some amount of hard effort if you want to get anything. Poor people should be helped by the more fortunate, but that doesn't mean they should get a free ride. People can only help you so much, at some point the rest is up to you. If you won't even help yourself, what chance do you have? So we, as a country, need to step away from this attitude that you can have whatever you want without having to work for it, and start teaching more self-control and responsibility.

Now will any of this happen? Of course not. People will continue to buy into the notion of entitlement because it appeals to their selfish desires. Concepts such as responsibility and sacrifice require you to put in effort and pay for everything now, even though the potential rewards can be greater. Entitlement allows you to get your reward now without any of the work or sacrifice. How can people be expected to care about others when they're too busy caring about themselves?

[Edited on November 4, 2007 at 11:43 AM. Reason : blah]

11/4/2007 11:41:32 AM

I feel for those who actually try to make in society and for whatever reason uncontrallable circumstances, lack of opportunity, bad luck, etc ended up in a situation of poverty.

However, I have no sympathy for those who have the means and capability to be a productive member of society yet do nothing but sit on the couch, smoke crack, or have no will to go out and try to imporve their situation. These members of society should rot.

11/4/2007 11:49:43 AM

don't be mean.

[Edited on November 4, 2007 at 2:30 PM. Reason : nvm]

11/4/2007 2:30:12 PM

392, and eyedrb :

exactly! I couldn't have said it better myself.

I mean, it really amuses me how some of the so-called "christians" around here conveniently forget that Jesus preached about how important it is to not give money or things to poor folks if they don't at least act like they're trying to do the right thing.

It's clear that the sum of the entire Christian message, as presented by Jesus in the Gospels, and later by Paul in his epistles as well as the Pastorals ... is that everyone should do a "fair day's work for a fair day's pay". And as we all know, "God helps those who help themselves"

(synoptic passages: Matthew 5:42, 6:1-4, 19:21; Luke 6:30, 12:33-34, 14:12-14, 14:21-23; ... see also: Acts 2:44-45; Romans 12:20; Galatians 6:10; 1 John 3:17; James 5:1-6)







[Edited on November 4, 2007 at 6:05 PM. Reason : ]

11/4/2007 5:59:32 PM

11/4/2007 9:16:48 PM

Quote :

"because of overpopulation and excessive government assistance there will always be poor people "

Actually, there will always be poor people, period.

There's no possible structure of gov. in a "free" economy, that would cause everyone to have a job where they wouldn't be poor.

It's not a matter of IF we should be treating the poor, it's how we should be treating them.

11/4/2007 9:41:29 PM

I'm dying to hear what bridget has to say. Something along the lines of African Americans have it the hardest and its not their fault?

11/4/2007 9:45:47 PM

^^^ Hahaha. Supply Side Jesus...

[Edited on November 4, 2007 at 11:29 PM. Reason : ]

11/4/2007 11:29:39 PM

supply side jesus makes me laugh

^^ ya that is such bullshit. they have been free for over a 100 years but can not seem to get their act together. asian immigrants come over with nothing more than a few grains of rice in their pocket and their children end up being doctors and shit within 1 generation.

Do not think it has anything to do with "race". But more of a cultural/parenting issue

[Edited on November 5, 2007 at 12:28 PM. Reason : s]

11/5/2007 12:27:06 PM

^ They have only been free really since the civil rights era, in the 60s. No where near 100 years.

Also, if it is a cultural thing, as you say, where does culture come from? Did slavery and segregation and racism not affect the culture of blacks in America?

11/5/2007 12:39:14 PM

I wouldn't exactly call it a cultural issue. I agree that asians in America tend to be more fiscally successful when they grow up. Of course, you have to take into consideration that those in Asia don't have as many opportunities as those in America. But, if you look at a lot of asians in Asia, there are proportionally as many poor people as there are in America, if not more.

That leads me to think that it's more of a parenting/social issue. I have an uncle living in America who still lives off of welfare (He's been in America since the early 80's). And guess where his kids are? Two of his sons are in and out of prison. And his youngest daughter has two children from two different fathers. Their mother/father didn't teach them the same values, morals, and ideals that my parents taught me and my siblings.

From personal experiences, it's definately an issue of Nature vs. Nurture. When it comes to the topic of poverty, it's 90% nuture (i.e. parental/social guidance), and 10% nature (i.e. bad luck).

11/5/2007 1:24:41 PM

Quote :

"^^ ya that is such bullshit. they have been free for over a 100 years but can not seem to get their act together. asian immigrants come over with nothing more than a few grains of rice in their pocket and their children end up being doctors and shit within 1 generation."

Remember that the Asians who come here tend to be fairly well-off to begin with. We don't have a border with any Asian country, and we didn't force Asians to come here.

11/6/2007 1:30:07 PM

Quote :

"ya that is such bullshit. they have been free for over a 100 years but can not seem to get their act together. asian immigrants come over with nothing more than a few grains of rice in their pocket and their children end up being doctors and shit within 1 generation. Remember that the Asians who come here tend to be fairly well-off to begin with. We don't have a border with any Asian country, and we didn't force Asians to come here."

I disagree with this somewhat. The ones who are crazy enough to hop on a boat or plane to come to the other side of the planet to work are probably going to be some of the hardest working, most ambitious, and perhaps the most desperate to change their lives. Those who came as students, particularly as graduate students (until recently) are probably some of the smartest of their home nations. Many of these Asian nations just don't have the same levels of economic opportunity to keep so many ambitious and hard working people employed which is why so many of their best and brightest go overseas.

Asian cultures have an equal proportion of bums and the lazy with the rest of the world, it's just that the bums and lazy usually don't scrounge up money and give up their homeland and perhaps the chance to ever see their families again to work crap jobs just so their kids can do good in school.

11/6/2007 11:58:52 PM

Quote :

"HUR: ^^ ya that is such bullshit. they have been free for over a 100 years but can not seem to get their act together. asian immigrants come over with nothing more than a few grains of rice in their pocket and their children end up being doctors and shit within 1 generation. Do not think it has anything to do with "race". But more of a cultural/parenting issue"

It's clearly a social issue. I mean, you say "cultural," but culture is tied closely to society.

I'm white. I'm the 14th generation of my father's family here in North Carolina. My father was the first to finish high school. That's right. White, free folks living in the US since before the Revolutionary War, and my father was the first to finish high school.

The area they lived in was isolated. They lived on the margins of society. He spent his formative years in a one-room home of cinderblocks (but they had a double outhouse...that's straight baller). Everybody around them was dirt poor. Generation after generation, poverty was all they knew. Their culture, their way of life, revolved around surviving. The idea of going to college was unfathomable. Mainstream society and culture was rejected and resented--my grandmother almost finished high school but dropped out because she felt slighted by a teacher.

You can't isolate people in poverty and expect them to live like the rest of society, to share society's values, to make the same choices and decisions. And we can't overlook historical factors that have impacted black people--like slavery, segregation, racism, discrimination, oppression, etc... Nor can we ignore the issues of space--my father's family had the benefit of space and not being crammed into slums by law.

Anyway, I'm not an expert on this topic, and we could talk about it forever. I've been mostly blabbering here. But it just seems to me that a little more than just "bad parenting" is at play here. It's not that simple.

[Edited on November 7, 2007 at 2:34 AM. Reason : Public education system, criminal justice system, etc...]

11/7/2007 2:24:26 AM

when you gonna finish your degree, Bridg?

11/7/2007 2:41:42 AM

^That's the second time I've seen you ask that. I answered the first time.

I'm kinda curious why you're asking...

?

Found it...

Quote :

"joe_schmoe: bridget when are you going to finish your degree and get a job?"

I intend to finish my degree within the next few years. Then maybe keep going to school. Or maybe move into my parent's basement and work full-time as a volunteer. Or move up to the family orchard and volunteer in the community while doing some repairs on the main house. Or squat in an abandoned trailer at the beach or something.

Anything but get a job.

message_topic.aspx?topic=500528

[Edited on November 7, 2007 at 3:07 AM. Reason : Found it.]

11/7/2007 3:02:06 AM

cause you got 14 generations in this country counting on you to do them proud.

yet, by your own admissions (from other unrelated threads) you just spend a lot of time holed up, drinking vodka when you could be finishing your degree and moving on.

ive been there and done that.

regret for wasted time is a shitty feeling.

11/7/2007 3:08:25 AM

^Nah, nobody's counting on me to do em proud.

But I hear ya about that wasted time thing.

11/7/2007 3:22:26 AM

Something else to consider with African-American descendents of slaves is the lack of self-selection. With most large voluntary movements of immigrants from the old world (whichever one) to the New World, the immigrants were self-selecting. They decided that, "whatever attachments I've got to the old world aren't enough to prevent me from seeking a new life in America". This doesn't mean that their circumstances weren't also prompting them to move, but we are the descendants of those who chose to take a very bold step.

There was no self-selection when it came to slaves. They were, often as not, defeated tribes / families handed over by other African slave-catchers. Couple this with the fact that they are the only group in the United States to have been systematically and formally oppressed from the nations founding until the 1960s and yes you're going to have massive cultural forces shaping the outlook of the average black man on the world.

That being said, a group can't hope to ride stories of past oppression to prosperity, but I don't think you can ignore the effects.

11/7/2007 4:37:14 AM

i usually consider poor people uneducated people so i automatically hold them in a lower regard...not all the time...i'm pretty good at making judgement calls imo

i dont know if that answers your question

11/7/2007 4:39:24 AM

im pretty poor right now.

and I care about that.

11/7/2007 8:13:54 AM

I don't like the poor. They are a drain on the economy, and they should NOT be given MY hard earned money just so they can live longer and take MORE of my tax money.

11/7/2007 9:46:00 AM

SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!

11/7/2007 11:51:41 AM

The Honda commercials with nature scenes playing on the city streets as the Accord drives by always remind me of Soylent Green.

11/7/2007 11:53:44 AM

Quote :

"I feel for those who actually try to make in society and for whatever reason uncontrallable circumstances, lack of opportunity, bad luck, etc ended up in a situation of poverty. However, I have no sympathy for those who have the means and capability to be a productive member of society yet do nothing but sit on the couch, smoke crack, or have no will to go out and try to imporve their situation. These members of society should rot."

i agree with this. the reality is, in our country, most people have the ability to pull themselves up and out of bad/impoverished situations. some do have a much tougher time doing so given their environment. these are the people who need assistance. the key is the individual realizing that they need to make the most out of their public schooling and public assitance at an early age and working to make the good grades that could get them into college and thereby pulling them out of the 'cycle.'

11/7/2007 12:53:48 PM

Quote :

"Actually, there will always be poor people, period. There's no possible structure of gov. in a "free" economy, that would cause everyone to have a job where they wouldn't be poor."

And that's why some of us hate freedom.

More seriously, technology should be able to eliminate scarcity as we know it within a few decades. Molecular nanotechnology and AI advances could change everything. They main question is whether the powers that be will allow this.

11/7/2007 2:25:38 PM

Damn dude

At what point did you go off the deep end?

11/7/2007 5:28:49 PM

No, I don't care about the poor even a little bit. If you lack the motivation to better your station in life then you don't merit my sympathy and frankly you are doing nothing but taking up space. We as a society would be better off if the poor were all killed off by a very cold winter.

11/7/2007 6:04:25 PM

fuck waiting for winter.

if you cant show net personal growth in a five year trend relative to inflation, you should be shot. and your family too.

11/7/2007 9:20:09 PM

^^I'm interested in knowing more about your circumstances.

I imagined some folks would say they don't care about poverty because they believe it's inevitable. I never imagined that someone would hope all poor people die in a difficult winter.

I mean, come on, dude...

...you're fucking crazy.

11/7/2007 11:30:55 PM

Quote :

"I'm interested in knowing more about your circumstances."

no you aren't.

Quote :

"you're fucking crazy."

see?

but, yeah. you're pretty much right.

11/8/2007 1:14:49 AM

The more I interact with poor people, the less sympathy I feel.

I've realized that (at least in my experience) you get severely poor either by choice or through a long string of really terrible decisions. I've just never seen an example of the stereotypical "screwed by the system" poor person. Ever.

In fact, the system typically bends over backwards to try and help poor people better themselves.


That said, I still don't understand some of the hatred in this thread. I don't like the minority of poor people who feel entitled to everything, but damn, ya'll

11/8/2007 1:25:03 AM

the way I look at it is that to at least someone I'm a poor bitch draining the system.

so I try not to be such a smug mother fucker.

11/8/2007 8:13:20 AM