Ft. Collins Examines Holiday Display Policy

Quote :

"(CBS4) FORT COLLINS, Colo. The holidays may look a lot different in the city of Fort Collins this year. The city is considering celebrating the holidays with decorative snowflakes instead of religious symbols. The debate began two years ago when a Jewish group tried and failed to have a menorah set up next to the city's decorated holiday tree. Now a task force recommends the city avoid all decorations like stars, wreaths, and Christmas trees on city property. 'More of a transition to winter symbols that aren't associated with particular celebrations: snowflakes, winter animals, those sorts of things,' Seth Anthony with the Fort Collins Holiday Decoration Task Force said. The Fort Collins City Council could vote on the plan before Thanksgiving."

http://cbs4denver.com/local/local_story_309002058.html

And so it begins for 2007.

11/9/2007 12:37:03 PM

What, the secularization of government decorations?


Or the incessant bitching about it?

11/9/2007 12:41:06 PM

My celebration of the Christmas holiday has never really been dependent on a city's decorations. It's always been dependent on the Bible, the Christmas Eve service, and my family.

11/9/2007 12:42:23 PM

But they're taking away your right to push all that on other people.

Don't you feel outraged?!

11/9/2007 12:45:18 PM

No. You can't force virtue on people.

You just have to show it to them and let them accept it on their own accord if they desire.

11/9/2007 12:47:19 PM

I don't see why people care about the religious stuff....they should concentrate on the real evils of Christmas, the apparent unwritten rule of having to buy people presents for no reason.

i think ima boycott presents from this year on....

11/9/2007 12:49:46 PM

do winter animals disappear in the summer?

11/9/2007 12:54:03 PM

Quote :

"What, the secularization of government decorations? Or the incessant bitching about it?"

Boone

Um. . .I think your use of "incessant" is ridiculous. This fight against the ACLU and their ilk usually happens about once a year--around Christmas.

[Edited on November 9, 2007 at 12:59 PM. Reason : .]

11/9/2007 12:59:00 PM

Why can't the Jews put up a public menorah?

11/9/2007 1:08:11 PM

I think it just boils down to people loving arguing about anything religious, it makes them feel righteous. I don't care what they put up, every symbol means more to some people than others.

11/9/2007 1:10:05 PM

RARRRR I'M SOOOO PERSECUTEDDDDD

11/9/2007 1:15:44 PM

^ I'm not. But I don't happen to think others should be.

11/9/2007 1:22:26 PM

I'll bite.

How does hanging up snowflakes persecute anyone?

11/9/2007 1:32:06 PM

fucking hell a lot of people in this thread are making me very sad.

11/9/2007 1:41:08 PM

If you work in an environment with jews or muslims or people of other religions, it's almost a slap in the face to just put up one type of decoration only.

Considering it's a place of employment that other people have to be around, it's not a big deal to say decorations can't be offensive to others.

11/9/2007 1:41:25 PM

i'm only in it for the lighted trees

11/9/2007 1:42:28 PM

humanity has soooo many other problems, and we're really worrying about this?....it boggles the mind

how bout we clear up situations where people are dying, before we worry about stepping on toes?

11/9/2007 1:46:07 PM

^ Why not do both?

Also, I would think doing the former would involve an innate understanding of the latter.

11/9/2007 2:07:50 PM

is the University of Michigan at Dearborn still using public funds to construct Muslim foot washing stations in their bathrooms?

11/9/2007 2:13:30 PM

In doing so, what religion are they excluding?

11/9/2007 2:28:36 PM

all religions other than islam maybe?

11/9/2007 2:29:35 PM

What, our washing needs aren't being accommodated?

11/9/2007 2:32:00 PM

so you don't have a problem with public funds being used to build something specifically for one religion to use? doesn't that seem like its a little unfair to use public funds to accomodate a small minority of people based on their religion? seems like you'd either do something for all religions or no religions, unless of course you were ('you' being the govt/ruling body) playing favorites

11/9/2007 4:06:40 PM

I was always wondering why people had a problem with Christmas trees. They don't have anything to "Christmas" itself anyway. They are an extension of ancient secular or even pagan European "winter festival" customs. There is no "Christmas tree" in any religious text.

11/9/2007 4:18:58 PM

Maybe they should have just let them put up a Menorah and then there wouldn't be an issue...wonder why they didn't...

11/9/2007 4:35:16 PM

I hate Christmas, but it has nothing to do with religion. I'm an atheist, but I couldn't care less about the religious aspect of Christmas. As a Libertarian I dislike that we are spending tax dollars on any kind of holiday decorations whether Christmas, Easter, Ramadan, or St. Patrick's day.

11/9/2007 4:40:32 PM

Quote :

"so you don't have a problem with public funds being used to build something specifically for one religion to use?"

whats stopping you from washing your feet in it?

11/9/2007 4:44:19 PM

^^^then every religious group would come out of the woodworks and want their propaganda displayed.

I don't particularly side with any one religious group, but it's pretty weird imo for an established culture to allow small groups of people to effectively change that culture's customs just b/c they don't agree.

[Edited on November 9, 2007 at 4:44 PM. Reason : .]

11/9/2007 4:44:47 PM

See that's the thing, you can either choose none or all. I'd opt for none, then you aren't wasting money and putting up a bunch of stupid shit all over the place.

11/9/2007 4:46:55 PM

^^^nothing...but building codes for bathrooms require sinks and water closets (toilets)...number of them depending on population / # of people using bathrooms...doesn't require anything else...why do you need to wash your feet in the bathroom anyway? its your religion, ok...why would you want to take off your socks in shoes in a public bathroom? and also can i piss in there? i mean some clubs/music venues i've been to have piss troughs...maybe i got it confused

11/9/2007 5:21:46 PM

How about replacing the Christmas decorations with a nice Global Warming Display?

You could even use the same stuff. The little animals standing around the crib..gazing at the baby Gore...thanking him for saving them. The three wise men bearing their carbon credits. You know..work a polar bear in there somewhere.

I think they could make it work.

11/9/2007 9:08:33 PM

Quote :

"And so it begins for 2007. "

and hooksaw couldnt wait for November.

11/9/2007 9:50:09 PM

11/9/2007 11:23:35 PM

Christmas is a secular holiday.

Snowflakes and trees and lights and Santas should comprise the typical decor.

No crosses or any of that nonsense.

And no menorahs. When Jews open up and start inviting others to worship among them as "chosen people," I might give two shits about this menorah issue.

[Edited on November 10, 2007 at 1:38 AM. Reason : ]

11/10/2007 1:33:43 AM

You do realize that it's possible to convert to Judaisn, don't you?

11/10/2007 8:21:48 AM

^Yes, I'm familiar with the fact that conversion is possible, just like I was last Christmas and the Christmas before that and the Christmas before that, etc...

The point is that Judaism is a largely exclusive faith...just ask any person with a Jewish father/Christian mother who has been told that they're not really Jewish because their mother wasn't Jewish...you're not really a "chosen person" because your mother wasn't "lucky" enough to be born Jewish.

You're fucking right such bullshit doesn't belong side such secular symbols as fucking Santa and snowflakes.

11/11/2007 4:24:57 AM

Wow Bridget, sounds like you really hate the jews.

My assertion still stands, governments job is not to decorate for the holidays.

11/11/2007 6:54:59 AM

Quote :

"Christmas is a secular holiday."

what

11/11/2007 11:24:34 AM

Quote :

"he point is that Judaism is a largely exclusive faith...just ask any person with a Jewish father/Christian mother who has been told that they're not really Jewish because their mother wasn't Jewish...you're not really a "chosen person" because your mother wasn't "lucky" enough to be born Jewish. "

that works to my benefit. my grandpa on my dad's side is jewish and its good waking up in the morning knowing i'm not a part of those scheisty penny pinchers

11/11/2007 1:13:55 PM

Quote :

""Christmas is a secular holiday.""

QFT!!!!!

Ok, anyone who has even remotely looked into it knows that Christmas (even before the mass market society) had MANY pagan roots.

But thats not the point, the point is Christmas Trees, Santa, giving gifts, Egg Nog, Popcorn Tins, multicolored lights, frosty the snow man, HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH JESUS. The fact that some people choose take the holiday season to remember Jesus in their own way (going to church) should make no difference on whether or not I want to wish someone a Merry Christmas.

11/11/2007 1:23:15 PM

Merry Xmas, everyone!!

11/11/2007 1:36:16 PM

yeah christmas really is a pagan holiday celebrating the winter solstice. Do not tell the evangelical christians this or they will kill you.

11/11/2007 1:44:33 PM

its not really accurate to say Christmas is a pagan holiday. yes, there are parallels, but Christmas is fundamentally to celebrate the birth of Christ. Christ's Mass.

now here's what would be accurate would be to say ... 4th- and 5th-century Roman Christians co-opted the traditional pagan Solstice festival date by revising their own birth narratives to correspond to the same calendar time, thereby incorporating the same symbolism, such as decorated trees, festive lights, wreaths, gift giving, etc.

the primary effect was to make Christianity more convenient to incorporate into (and eventually supplant) traditional pagan worship practices, as pagans didn't have any problem accepting new gods into their pantheon.

it also curiously paralleled one of the pagans' divine heroes, Mithras, who was born of a god and a virgin on the day of the Winter Solstice... which interestingly happened to be December 25th on the contemporary Roman (Julian) Calendar.

but you know, these are just trifling details. if KJV English was good enough for Jesus, it should be good enough for everyone.







[Edited on November 11, 2007 at 4:37 PM. Reason : ]

11/11/2007 4:32:09 PM

Quote :

"Kurtis636: Wow Bridget, sounds like you really hate the jews."

I love the Jews.

Not a big fan of the Judaism.

11/11/2007 5:41:46 PM

ATTN: TEH JEWS!

You don't even like hanukkah!

11/11/2007 6:06:34 PM

Hanukah is a horrible holiday unless you love slacks, chocolate coins, and disappointment.

11/11/2007 7:42:41 PM

^ and dreidels

11/11/2007 8:43:11 PM

I'm personally a big fan of Yom Kippur

11/12/2007 12:18:57 AM

If you're going to bitch, then move to a country that wasn't founded on Christian principals

I swear to god, everyone gets so pissed and offended about everything these days

oh sorry, should I not have said god in my post

did I offend someone?

11/12/2007 7:53:38 AM

Quote :

"If you're going to bitch, then move to a country that wasn't founded on Christian principals"

You don't really know much about the people who wrote/inspired the constitution do you? Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Thomas Paine and Benjamin Franklin would probably disagree with your bs assertion there. The things these figures had to say on religion had to do mostly with keeping it separate from government. Madison wasn't exactly fanatical either.

Here's some good quotes.

http://www.anotherperspective.org/advoc550.html


A good article on the subject:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050221/allen

More quotes

http://dim.com/~randl/founders.htm

Oh and here's some info on Jefferson's modified bible- the one where he removed the supernatural elements. Jefferson liked the teachings and all, but denied the divinity of Jesus:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

actual text: http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/JefJesu.html



[Edited on November 12, 2007 at 8:10 AM. Reason : ]

11/12/2007 7:59:14 AM