I just found it bewildering that Sudanese muslims were going mental over this teddy bear situation. How could members of the wonderful, peaceful religion of Islam call for the execution of this teacher?




So I checked with the english version of Al Jazeera news service. I wanted to see what a sympathetic source would claim the reason for this strong of a reaction.

Quote :

"Hundreds of protesters have marched through the Sudanese capital Khartoum demanding death for a British school teacher convicted of insulting Islam. The naming of a toy animal after Islam's most revered prophet has sparked great controversy in the African nation. "It is a premeditated action, and this unbeliever thinks that she can fool us?" Yassin Mubarak, one of the demonstrators, said. "What she did requires her life to be taken." David Miliband, Britain's foreign minister, said he was "extremely disappointed" with the verdict and called in the Sudanese ambassador for an immediate explanation. Al-Gizouli, said that by prosecuting Gibbons, the Sudanese government may have sought to voice its resistance to including Western peacekeepers among the UN-African Union force that is to deploy in Darfur. "You take an event like this teacher incident, enlarge it and make a bomb out of it," he said. He sais the prosecution was to show that "Muslims in Sudan don't want these people [Westerners] to interfere, [they] want African troops." Omar al-Bashir, Sudan's president, had long resisted any UN peacekeepers until he agreed to the joint force earlier this year."

So apparently they're all doing this to protest the inclusion of westerners in a UN peace-keeping force. Seems a bit of a strecth from naming a teddy bear Mohammad.



http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/EA186548-418F-4658-948A-0DD72D255360.htm

[Edited on December 1, 2007 at 12:01 AM. Reason : .]

12/1/2007 12:01:11 AM

if i become muslim can i get a complimentary sword like that dude has?

would come in handy for beheading infidels and also would look totally sweet hanging over my mantel

[Edited on December 1, 2007 at 12:03 AM. Reason : s]

12/1/2007 12:02:59 AM

You know, something's been on my mind for awhile now. Every time something "offends Islam" in some ass-backwards predominantly Islamic country, people seem to take to the streets and call for death this and kill that and blah blah blah.

And despite certain radical clerics in Europe, one largely doesn't see that in Western nations, despite significant Muslim populations.

So, a question arises. Do these people turn out in droves to take offense and whatever trumped-up outrage rules the day, chanting "murder murder" and "kill kill kill" because they're Muslims, or because they're from some ass-backwards country where flipping out and getting all kill-happy is a socially acceptable behavior?

12/1/2007 12:15:10 AM

essentially the second explanation is the correct one

but the larger muslim community is culpable for not vehemently condemning these people for defacing their religion

12/1/2007 12:18:42 AM

the catholic church only vaguely condemns their priests for having sex with little boys, usually they just move them to a different area. the catholic church and islam seem to have similar power structures which lead to problems when decrying the various leaders who lead bullshit things like this.

12/1/2007 12:22:32 AM

^^ But even worse than that, I deeply suspect political and cultural leaders in these kinds of nations that exploit the norm that violent overreaction to trivial offenses is acceptable, or even something to be encouraged. Leaders whip the masses into a constant state of righteous fury and thus use it as a cover for lousy policy or whatever other ulterior ends they have in mind.

Just a theory, but still.

12/1/2007 12:24:07 AM

^^ uh... the muslim and catholic power structures are about as similar as night and day. islam is as decentralized as is possible, while catholicism is as centralized and hierarchical as possible.

12/1/2007 12:45:08 AM

Quote :

"but the larger muslim community is culpable for not vehemently condemning these people for defacing their religion"

Good point. The silence is deafening, isn't it?

Quote :

"Leaders whip the masses into a constant state of righteous fury and thus use it as a cover for lousy policy or whatever other ulterior ends they have in mind. "

It sure appears like that to me too.

12/1/2007 1:40:21 AM

It's pretty awful shit -- but as with all of this Islam vs. everybody shitfest you'll end up with the same old positions:

Ultra-Left Wing: Islam is a religion of peace! (blatantly ignoring the fact that Muslims are capable of awful violence in the name of their faith)

Ultra-Right Wing: Islam is a religion of hatred and destruction, and our Western Christian values are so much better! (blatantly ignoring the fact that the root of the values are the same, and that Christians are capable of as much violence both historically and right here and now, especially if you count America as a "Christian" nation)

Seems like this stems more from being a third-world shit-hole than any particular quality of Islam. I also don't get why people expect every Muslim in the world to stand up when things like this happen. Is every Christian in the world supposed to protest America's violent actions abroad? Boy I bet that'd twist your guys' shorts if that happened.

[Edited on December 1, 2007 at 1:53 AM. Reason : .]

12/1/2007 1:52:35 AM

pretty sure that the american military isn't shouting "christ is great" as they carry out their missions

but i am pretty sure that the islamic jihadists are making it very clear that they are acting in the name of muhammed/allah/whatever and that they are doing so as a part of the muslim faith.

so yea, i do consider it the responsibility of muslims throughout the world to take some goddamn responsibility for their faith and at least attempt to salvage its reputation from those assholes

the fact that they remain silent is pretty fucking telling, though.

12/1/2007 1:58:55 AM

http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?idarticle=12649

The silence is deafening, huh?

12/1/2007 2:05:09 AM

yes, the silence is deafening.

12/1/2007 2:09:55 AM

What would like, exactly?

12/1/2007 2:16:45 AM

Something more than a press release for a start.

If some muslims pour out into the street to demand this teacher's head. Whay don't some others pour out in her defense? Are they afraid? Looking at the size of that sword..maybe it's hard to blame them.

12/1/2007 2:23:45 AM

this also goes far beyond this incident. i'm looking back on the past 6 years mmk. about the only people you got are a few very courageous muslim women who get some op-eds published in WSJ and then a fatwah gets issued against them sentencing them to death

12/1/2007 2:25:09 AM

Hey I have an idea.

YouTube a clip of you pissing on the Alamo.

Then post about it a week later.

12/1/2007 2:26:37 AM

its so cool and trendy to pretend that islam isn't a religion in the middle of a huge crisis right now

12/1/2007 2:30:44 AM

I don't think the muslim world, particularly the mid-east muslims, have much incentive at this point in time to rebut people protesting because they don't want westerners involved in their affairs.

The teddy bear thing, unfortunately, is merely the catalyst. It's not the cause, and barely symptomatic of the underlying issues of gov corruption and poverty and oppression that Sudan suffers from.

Also that al jazeera link seemed to be on the teacher's side, so I'm not sure what "sympathetic news service" was suppose to mean in this case.


[Edited on December 1, 2007 at 2:33 AM. Reason : ]

12/1/2007 2:32:32 AM

al jazeera is largely sympathetic or at least more aware of the muslim and/or arabic perspective

[Edited on December 1, 2007 at 2:37 AM. Reason : s]

12/1/2007 2:37:12 AM

Quote :

"pretty sure that the american military isn't shouting "christ is great" as they carry out their missions"

No but they go back to their tents at night and pray, read their Bibles, etc. Many of them think they're doing things that accord with God's will (or they wouldn't be doing it). How is that much different, other than the outward showing?

12/1/2007 2:50:01 AM

if you can't see the difference, you never will.

12/1/2007 3:25:04 AM

Obviously there's a difference, but is the difference such that Christians everywhere shouldn't have to apologize for the actions of some?

I mean if these soldiers are really Christians, should they be killing other people? It's at least a reasonable question to ask. Based purely on the scripture, it seems like the answer would be "no."

In that case, shouldn't Christians everywhere be apologizing for the actions of some? Shouldn't they be standing up and denouncing the killing that these other Christians are doing? I personally don't think so, but then again, I also don't think Muslims everywhere need to answer for a hand-full of dickheads who happen to call themselves the same thing.

12/1/2007 3:27:23 AM

its not being done in the name of christ, nor is it being advertised as being done in the name of christianity.

the difference is stark. stop being trendy.

12/1/2007 3:29:15 AM

Who cares if it's done in the name of Christ tacitly or publicly?

What about when priests molest little boys? Should catholics everywhere take to the streets? What about when a deranged lunatic bombs an abortion clinic in the name of Christ? Should Christians EVERYWHERE have taken to the streets to protest this? Should Christians in Mumbai, Tokyo, and Seoul have organized marches against this?

Why should there be this huge public outcry against what a pack of rogue Muslims do, each and every time they do something? It should be obvious that reasonable people disagree, and unless you're willing to label every Muslim citizen of the West a fundamentally unreasonable person, then you have no reason to assume they don't disagree with these deplorable actions.

What the hell do these people have to prove to you?

12/1/2007 3:33:25 AM

they don't have to prove a damn thing. their silence is proof enough.

12/1/2007 3:34:37 AM

I'm going to assume that when anybody who shares any ideology with you does something deplorable, that you immediately organize a march and make your opinion widely and publicly known.

12/1/2007 3:36:17 AM

I can already imagine what my opponents are going to say, so I'm going to just respond to it early.

I'm not excusing the behavior of these crazy-ass Muslims who want the woman's head. What I'm saying is that Muslims everywhere are by no means obliged to demonstrate that they disagree with these peoples' behavior. Do you even understand how pig-headed it is to expect that they should?

"Oh wow those brown and black people in other countries are crazy as shit. Are you bad brown and black people bad like them, or are you COOL like one of us? Prove yourselves."

[Edited on December 1, 2007 at 3:53 AM. Reason : .]

12/1/2007 3:52:38 AM

i don't demand that they protest against extremists in their midst

all i do is observe that they don't take responsibility for protecting the reputation of their own damn religion


p.s. i'll take your hysterical racism as evidence that you're running out of things to say. it might surprise you to know that there are a multitude of other religions besides islam practiced in the middle east and surrounding areas, including christianity, bahai, etc.



[Edited on December 1, 2007 at 4:09 AM. Reason : s]

12/1/2007 4:01:09 AM

Quote :

"all i do is observe that they don't take responsibility for protecting the reputation of their own damn religion"

Neither does anybody in the questions I posed to you above. You know, the questions you didn't address.

Quote :

"p.s. i'll take your hysterical racism as evidence that you're running out of things to say. it might surprise you to know that there are a multitude of other religions besides islam practiced in the middle east and surrounding areas, including christianity, bahai, etc."

The racism I imitated is usually a part of peoples' anti-Islam knee-jerk reactions, but by no means essential to these reactions. We can imagine many cases and hypothetical cases where people react in the same unprincipled "anti-THEM" manner without race being at issue (being foreigners in general is probably as big of a deal as race in many of the cases of bigotry that we see).

12/1/2007 4:16:53 AM

well its all good. i expected your side of the argument to eventually settle on that old tired dodge


[Edited on December 1, 2007 at 4:25 AM. Reason : s]

12/1/2007 4:24:19 AM

What dodge exactly?

I've made my point clear and you've not responded to the vast majority of it. Why should they all have to publicly denounce what the fringe does if other groups should not?

12/1/2007 4:27:58 AM

I swear to gawd, this has been the start of one of the best exchanges I've seen in recent TSB memory

Quote :

" DrSteveChaos : You know, something's been on my mind for awhile now. Every time something "offends Islam" in some ass-backwards predominantly Islamic country, people seem to take to the streets and call for death this and kill that and blah blah blah. And despite certain radical clerics in Europe, one largely doesn't see that in Western nations, despite significant Muslim populations. So, a question arises. Do these people turn out in droves to take offense and whatever trumped-up outrage rules the day, chanting "murder murder" and "kill kill kill" because they're Muslims, or because they're from some ass-backwards country where flipping out and getting all kill-happy is a socially acceptable behavior? Solinari : essentially the second explanation is the correct one but the larger muslim community is culpable for not vehemently condemning these people for defacing their religion "

I'm not joking, at the very moment I was looking for just one single reason to even bother coming back to TSB (in light of all the recent ridiculous bullshit) ... you both have delivered.

thanks

12/1/2007 4:35:44 AM

... but im also a bit drunk, having just returned from the Monkey Pub.. i tend to be more gracious when i've been drinking.

i'll check back in, in the morning.

12/1/2007 4:38:39 AM

While religion may have played a part here, the bigger issue is that they live in a 3rd world shit-hole and have no education or access to education. If you want to stop "radical islam" then you need to better educate those people. Unfortunately its hard to do this without coming off as teaching "western values".

12/1/2007 9:40:50 AM

^
That's an interesting observation.

How do you help pull up a culture that despises you and your values? Is it something we should even be messing with? The West seemed to get through this during the enlightenment. Will the muslim countries ever have their own enlightenment?

Perhaps it will take a major shift to spark it. Say when we come up with an alternative energy source to oil. Maybe when the world stops paying attention to them and their oilfields, they will be able to take a hard look at where they've been and how little they have advanced.

12/1/2007 10:09:07 AM

My main problem with it is that the teacher didn't name the bear Mohamed, her students did. In fact, last I checked, Mohamed is the single most popular name in the Muslim world. Of course, you don't hear cries for execution every time that a Muslim couple names their kid the same thing.

No Muslims would even give a shit about this if the teacher wasn't a western infidel.

12/1/2007 10:20:09 AM

^^ We can hope they pull out of it on their on and let them fester until then.

We could do like China and buy our way in.

I'd like to think our current plan falls between the two in that we'll go in there and help them with things like agriculutre and what not to make them self-sufficent. Then hoping they trust us enough to listen to some of our other ideas. In reality I dont think we really have much of a plan or if we do its not getting enough resources or attention. If we can help africa and get them to not hate us then maybe they could spread that to other regions.

We also need to watch what China does. They need all the resources they can get. One of the guys I work with is from Africa and he said China's help is very welcome. He also said the US used to be hugely respected by most of them, but our reputation has gone to shit lately. So china is in a pretty good situation. My friend is also a very devout muslim. He hates al queda. But they're doing a very effective job of making even non-extremists view US foreign policy as anti-muslim.

12/1/2007 11:23:04 AM

Isn't Mohammad the most common name in the world? So how come Islam isn't getting upset over that? The answer: probably half of them are named Mohammad and they would have to kill themselves, bunch of hypocritical bastards they are.

12/1/2007 11:43:06 AM

Quote :

"How do you help pull up a culture that despises you and your values?"

I'll say it if no one else will: With overwhelming deadly force. Enormous numbers of bombs and tanks and troops and aircraft carriers and if need be, the Big One.

Of course, it's really not right to do all that unless the other guy really and undeniably starts the fight, so that doesn't do us much good with Sudan at the moment, but the point is, any country can be made to listen. If we could make the Axis powers get with the program, we can damn sure make fucking Sudan get with it.

But, sadly, this is merely a description of capabilities rather than resolve or intentions.

Quote :

"The West seemed to get through this during the enlightenment. Will the muslim countries ever have their own enlightenment?"

Arguably the Muslim peoples of the world had their enlightenment before us, and it just didn't take -- not least because we in the west used our version to make really effective guns and military tactics which we then employed to subjugate theirs.

Quote :

"Maybe when the world stops paying attention to them and their oilfields, they will be able to take a hard look at where they've been and how little they have advanced."

You know, Palestine doesn't have a drop of oil in it, and it still seems to grab a lot of attention with its antics. Ditto Pakistan and Afghanistan. The fall of oil will signal the collapse of some of our wealthy erstwhile allies and a shift of their power to people who like us even less. Of course, without such vast reserves of wealth, we can at least hope that they soon run too low on resources to pose much of an outside threat.

12/1/2007 11:50:20 AM

Quote :

"How do you help pull up a culture that despises you and your values?"

A good place to start would be to change the way we interact with many of these third-world countries. Most of their exposure to the West is through military action (peace-keeping and such), multi-national corporations, and missionaries. Regardless of actual intentions, it's easy for detractors to point out self-interest as the motivating factor for Western actions in the third world.

12/1/2007 12:50:03 PM

the same sorta thing happens here
like when imus refered to black women as nappy headed hoe's

if there were true morals in america and a collective conciousness there would be marches like this to purge the society of what they perciev as evil

12/1/2007 1:22:46 PM

Quote :

"the same sorta thing happens here like when imus refered to black women as nappy headed hoe's"

that's not even close. the only shred of similarity is that both events were completely contrived, bullshit "aspersions"

i didnt hear anyone calling for imus's beheading ok

the "same sort of thing[s]" most definitely do NOT happen here

[Edited on December 1, 2007 at 1:41 PM. Reason : ,]

12/1/2007 1:40:40 PM

What I don't understand is that there are several people named Muhammad. So if it's okay to name a person Muhammad, why not a teddy bear? It's not like that person is the true prophet himself.

[Edited on December 1, 2007 at 3:21 PM. Reason : Remember when I got a salmon helmet from the prophet Muhammad? [/Peter Griffin]]

12/1/2007 3:12:57 PM

well, the answer to your query is obviously because it's quite the insult to muslims to have a big, hairy animal bear [lol, pun] the same name as your religion's prophet.

errr, wait..?



[Edited on December 1, 2007 at 4:19 PM. Reason : /]

12/1/2007 4:18:24 PM

Fuck Muhammad. Fuck Jesus. Fuck Buddha. Fuck Zoroaster. Fuck Zeus. Fuck Odin. Fuck Yahweh.

And fuck every one of you backward ass, fairy-tale believing fuckheads.

12/1/2007 4:26:08 PM

^^also couldn't it be construed as an idol which they're pretty touchy about?

12/1/2007 4:58:34 PM

Quote :

"Fuck Muhammad. Fuck Jesus. Fuck Buddha. Fuck Zoroaster. Fuck Zeus. Fuck Odin. Fuck Yahweh. And fuck every one of you backward ass, fairy-tale believing fuckheads. "

12/1/2007 10:33:02 PM

I don't mean this to in any way excuse the reactions to the entire ridiculous situation, but this woman should have figured out that naming a stuffed animal, "Mohammed," would offend people. Would she also name a teddy bear, "Jesus?"

Oh, and

Quote :

"because they're from some ass-backwards country where flipping out and getting all kill-happy is a socially acceptable behavior?"

Absolutely.

12/1/2007 10:51:33 PM

^i agree

12/1/2007 10:54:51 PM

Quote :

"Why Are Muslims Going Crazy Over the Teddy Bear?"

because the large, radical, vocal sect of muslims are bat-shit crazy.

12/1/2007 11:02:40 PM