As the disparity incomes continues to more epic proportions, we could very well see the first trillionaire during our lifetime. Such a disparity in income and unequal distribution of resources could very well threaten democracy and undermine the efforts of a popularly elected government, especially if combined with the easing or dissolution of campaign finance laws and media consolidation. The question is: when is too much too much?

12/10/2007 5:07:57 PM

If it can be shown that it was fairly gotten, then there is no amount that is too much.

12/10/2007 5:09:59 PM

We have trillionaires. They're all in Zimbabwean dollars though.

The richest man in the world is now Mexican Carlos Slim.

[Edited on December 10, 2007 at 5:11 PM. Reason : .]

12/10/2007 5:11:25 PM

if we're lucky, the first trillionaires will act much in the same vain that the two richest men in the world right now, Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, do. In absolute dollar terms, they are the most generous and philanthropic people ever.

12/10/2007 5:11:44 PM

i would think if bill gates devoted like 10 billion specifically to curing aids it could be done

12/10/2007 5:13:46 PM

I think it is impossible for a single person to ever make this much money without heavily lobbying, influencing legislative activity, offshoring to avoid taxes, engaging in anti competitive behavior (like Microsoft has) or generally using their immense wealth to stack the legislative cards in their favor. In other words, there will become a point where such immense disparity in wealth will end our democracy, because all but the most wealthy will be able to secure access to legislators or get their message across in the media. Thus all policy derived from the government institutions will favor specific interests and would be an end to public interest politics.

I guess people would rather see an end to democracy in this country than promote even reasonable impositions of taxation on the ultra-wealthy.


[Edited on December 10, 2007 at 5:19 PM. Reason : .]

12/10/2007 5:18:25 PM

ibtl

12/10/2007 5:23:41 PM

why? how about "in before the the well reasoned discussion"?

12/10/2007 5:26:11 PM

Please define "reasonable impositions of taxation" and "ultra-wealthy".

Quote :

"In other words, there will become a point where such immense disparity in wealth will end our democracy, because all but the most wealthy will be able to secure access to legislators or get their message across in the media. Thus all policy derived from the government institutions will favor specific interests and would be an end to public interest politics."

I understand what you're saying, but I disagree as to what the problem is. The problem is not wealthy people. The problem is that we--wealthy and non-wealthy alike--elect and tolerate public officials who allow themselves to be purchased for the cost of a weekend junket, a lucrative land deal, and cut rate construction on their 10,000 square foot summer home.

12/10/2007 5:27:39 PM

When you got dominated in your argument by agentlion, and you had to resort to bullshit comments like this

Quote :

"I guess people would rather see an end to democracy in this country than promote even reasonable impositions of taxation on the ultra-wealthy."

I tune out, and I suspect others do to. It's exactly this type of behavior that gets TreeTwista hated on. You're no better.

12/10/2007 5:28:00 PM

Quote :

"When will we see the first trillionaire?"

I doubt we'll know when the first trillionaire becomes a reality. People like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet make it easy, but more than likely it will be someone from the Rothschild family which, as a family, is already rumored to be worth in excess of 100 trillion dollars.

And yeah, I know $100 trillion is likely an overstatement, but nobody really knows because they are so secretive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rothschild_family


[Edited on December 10, 2007 at 5:40 PM. Reason : x]

12/10/2007 5:36:16 PM

I support free markets a little government interference; but I draw the line when corporations influence legislation, cheat the system, and other shady shit that unfairly manipulates the market. These situation are in my opinion is what a strong federal government's role is and to investigate shady business practices and violating securities regulations. Rich people should not be "punished" for being successful but if they earned this money in malicious means then the gov't should pick up the whip.

In general I do not trust the banking and credit industries.

[Edited on December 10, 2007 at 5:43 PM. Reason : a]

12/10/2007 5:41:33 PM

^^ that means they own the WORLD TWICE over... world GDP per annum is ~ USD 50 trillion.

not possible.

12/10/2007 5:45:50 PM

Quote :

"if we're lucky"

I wouldn't call that being owned. I agree with agentlion. If we are lucky, that would be the case. But should we base our entire system of government around the supposition that this is going to be the case?

12/10/2007 5:47:45 PM

Quote :

"I tune out, and I suspect others do to. It's exactly this type of behavior that gets TreeTwistaChance hated on. You're no better."

fixed*

12/10/2007 5:55:33 PM

Quote :

"We have trillionaires. They're all in Zimbabwean dollars though. "

I forgot. We also already have trillionaires in yen.

12/10/2007 5:55:59 PM

Quote :

"^^ that means they own the WORLD TWICE over... world GDP per annum is ~ USD 50 trillion. not possible."

Like I said, that is probably an overstatement.

But, just to play devil's advocate; why do you rule it out based on one year of GDP?

This is arguably the richest and most powerful family in the world and they have had 200 years of financial domination to amass their wealth.

[Edited on December 10, 2007 at 5:56 PM. Reason : s]

12/10/2007 5:56:13 PM

^ Not to mention the men marry their cousins and sisters to keep all the money in the family.

12/10/2007 6:00:43 PM

hmmm... need to find meself a rothsgirl to marry

12/10/2007 6:03:13 PM

Quote :

"We also already have trillionaires in yen."

almost in pesos as well

12/10/2007 6:08:20 PM

Quote :

"If it can be shown that it was fairly gotten, then there is no amount that is too much"

TRUTH!



and also... bill gates gives away tons...

but he also know how to keep shit out of country too

[Edited on December 10, 2007 at 6:22 PM. Reason : .]

12/10/2007 6:22:41 PM

Your irrational views on wealth distribution means that you probably have no idea of what the consequences are of the position you are advocating.

12/10/2007 6:29:28 PM

^ "Irrational" being defined as anyone who deviates from what you believe...

12/10/2007 6:33:08 PM

^^^ true. There have been other people involved in Microsoft and other ventures that actually enjoyed flaunting their money and are a sharp contract to Mr. Gates. His spot could soon be taken by Warren Buffett and he wouldn't care.

He could have had $70 billion right now instead if he wanted. Possibly even more if he was aggressive enough. But what's the point, anything over 10 billion you would never have the slimmest chance in hell of being able to entirely spend on yourself and your friends.

[Edited on December 10, 2007 at 6:41 PM. Reason : ]

12/10/2007 6:41:01 PM

^^Pretty much.

^

Quote :

"But what's the point, anything over 10 billion you would never have the slimmest chance in hell of being able to entirely spend on yourself and your friends."

I would argue 1 billion, but even 10 is acceptable. There becomes a point where a person has so much resources if they wished they could effectively dominate all the institutions of government with their influence and effectively silence most forms of dissent through media ownership. Thats anti-Democratic and anti-American.

12/10/2007 6:44:49 PM

That point has never been reached and likely never will be reached.

Your fear of the ultra-rich is irrational and anti-american.

[Edited on December 10, 2007 at 6:50 PM. Reason : 2]

12/10/2007 6:49:54 PM

Quote :

"If it can be shown that it was fairly gotten, then there is no amount that is too much."

The mind boggles. I wonder if I used to think like that. I hope not.

12/10/2007 6:56:51 PM

In a few decades when inflation makes A trillion dollars in the future equal as much as 1 billion dollars today?

12/10/2007 7:00:49 PM

Quote :

"The mind boggles. I wonder if I used to think like that. I hope not."

who are you kidding. if you had your way there would be a complete redistribution of wealth with everyone calling each other comrade.

12/10/2007 7:02:42 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_billionaires_%282007%29

Consider, Japan has a GDP of over 4 Trillion out of the world's 60 trillion, and I think everyone can agree they're very developed and have been that way. Now, how many Japanese are on this list?

Not all countries have crazy robber barons, and their population is better off for it.

12/10/2007 7:03:50 PM

^^^ PWNT.

The Trillion dollar mark will probably become irrelevant before it is reached...

[Edited on December 10, 2007 at 7:04 PM. Reason : ^]

12/10/2007 7:04:00 PM

If the US dollar collapses maybe someday I can be a trillionaire too?

12/10/2007 7:06:48 PM

The Gov't is trashing the value of our dollar through inflation... soon we will all be trillionaires..pushing our wheelbarrows full of federal reserve notes through the streets.

Quote :

"The question is: when is too much too much?"

I could ask that question regarding taxation. Where does it stop? At what point is taxation immoral? What is the highest percentage that finally stops people from even trying anymore.

12/10/2007 7:44:31 PM

Quote :

"Consider, Japan has a GDP of over 4 Trillion out of the world's 60 trillion, and I think everyone can agree they're very developed and have been that way. Now, how many Japanese are on this list? Not all countries have crazy robber barons, and their population is better off for it. "

I wouldn't consider Japan a good example. Their domestic economy is ran horribly so that the multinational corporations can benefit to the maximum. Not to mention that 15 years ago the Bank of Japan went on a disastrous policy to avoid a recession that wiped out most people's savings, and they're only now starting to climb out of that hole.

12/10/2007 7:49:49 PM

Quote :

"People like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet make it easy, but more than likely it will be someone from the Rothschild family which, as a family, is already rumored to be worth in excess of 100 trillion dollars."

I've never seen that figure anywhere but on conspiracy theory websites. Your own link doesn't even mention it.

12/10/2007 8:02:52 PM

If it happens, it won't be because of the reasons the OP listed. It will be because of inflation and the continued devaluing of the US dollar... equating that person with super-rich people from every era of American history.

We should just start calling our money the US yen soon.

[Edited on December 10, 2007 at 8:29 PM. Reason : .]

12/10/2007 8:28:20 PM

Quote :

"I wouldn't consider Japan a good example. Their domestic economy is ran horribly so that the multinational corporations can benefit to the maximum. Not to mention that 15 years ago the Bank of Japan went on a disastrous policy to avoid a recession that wiped out most people's savings, and they're only now starting to climb out of that hole."

You're right that they're economy isn't run well by the government, but that doesn't mean they have a bad or inefficient economy (come on, these are the Japanese here).

If you take Dr. Flath's class on this (which I strongly recommend) you get the image of an economy that is very self organizing and doesn't need one strong central power. While there were mistakes and there was a huge recession starting with the 90s, most economists believe there was something inevitable about a slowing of growth at least. After you develop (or re-develop to some degree for the Japanese miracle) to the same level as the other top economic powers of the world and your workforce is shrinking and not expanding, where do you have left to go?

The Japanese really do have a much more even wealth distribution than we do, and it's something you can see if you go there. They're not spotted with filthy rich and filthy poor neighborhoods. Most places are... about the same economically.

12/10/2007 8:50:55 PM

Quote :

"the first trillionaires will act much in the same vain that the two richest men in the world right now"

vein

12/10/2007 9:00:54 PM

Quote :

"That point has never been reached and likely never will be reached. Your fear of the ultra-rich is irrational and anti-american. "

We've already reached this point.

Just look at the media. They pretty much make or break presidential candidates. Do you think if it was for them making a big deal of Howard Dean he would have sunk so early? Or if any of them bothered to investigate the whitehouses claims before Iraq, we'd be there now? It would have taken 1 executive really to change the course of any of these events.

The food industry is an even more scary example of how money controls things. There are a small handful of food companies that control most of the food we eat, and it's mostly to their benefit, not ours.

Power scales exponentially with wealth, which is how the ultra-rich manage to keep making money. It's not because they just have strings of great ideas.

12/10/2007 9:16:12 PM

more like wealth scales exponentially with wealth

10% on $100 million bucks is better than 10% on $100 thousand bucks

12/10/2007 9:27:36 PM

^ In terms poor people can understand:

10% on $100 million dollar bucks is better than 10% on $100 thousand dollar bucks.

12/10/2007 9:49:34 PM

Quote :

"The Japanese really do have a much more even wealth distribution than we do, and it's something you can see if you go there. They're not spotted with filthy rich and filthy poor neighborhoods. Most places are... about the same economically. "

Well the Japanese have a much better work ethic then most Americans. A lot of Americans are spoiled and lazy expecting someone to spoonfeed them or think someone owes them. In Japan people have a more utilitarian mind set thinking about society at a whole, and caring for family instead of just themselves. This is one reason why I think the more socialist system is more effective in Japan and Europe more so then it would work here. Socialist programs would be more likely abused in this country with a lot of people just leeching off the system.

I hate to say it though but the uber-rich do have a responsibility through charity and even increased taxes though to take care of society as a whole. After all they have the most to lose if civil unrest starts casing issues within the country.



[Edited on December 10, 2007 at 10:00 PM. Reason : l]

[Edited on December 10, 2007 at 10:02 PM. Reason : l]

12/10/2007 9:53:04 PM

Quote :

"Well the Japanese have a much better work ethic then most Americans. A lot of Americans are spoiled and lazy expecting someone to spoonfeed them or think someone owes them. In Japan people have a more utilitarian mind set thinking about society at a whole, and caring for family instead of just themselves. This is one reason why I think the more socialist system is more effective in Japan and Europe more so then it would work here. Socialist programs would be more likely abused in this country with a lot of people just leeching off the system."

Complete and utter bullshit. Americans work more hours than citizens of any other developed country (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22352613-1702,00.html?from=public_rss).

Next, show me proof of these statements you most certainly pulled out of your ass:

Quote :

""A lot of Americans are spoiled and lazy expecting someone to spoonfeed them or think someone owes them." "In Japan people have a more utilitarian mind set thinking about society at a whole, and caring for family instead of just themselves." "

Last I checked, this utilitarian Japanese society consumed luxury goods at twice the rate of Americans. I'm going to guess that you don't have a single shred of evidence to show that the Japanese are 1) less selfish 2) more utilitarian 3) care for their elderly more.

Just because your view is positive doesn't mean it's any less racist.

Quote :

"This is one reason why I think the more socialist system is more effective in Japan and Europe more so then it would work here. Socialist programs would be more likely abused in this country with a lot of people just leeching off the system."

By socialist system, I assume you just mean universal healthcare. The real reason Japan and Europe can afford universal healthcare is because they don't spend the same percentage of their GDP on defense. They get free protection from the US. They spend the difference on subsidizing universal healthcare.

[Edited on December 10, 2007 at 10:21 PM. Reason : .]

12/10/2007 10:14:37 PM

just because we work more hours doesnt mean that we get more done

12/10/2007 10:20:59 PM

just because we spend twice as much on healthcare (per capita) doesn't mean we get better treatment either

[Edited on December 10, 2007 at 10:23 PM. Reason : .]

12/10/2007 10:23:13 PM

^, ^^ Is that supposed to be a rebuttal to something?

[Edited on December 10, 2007 at 10:24 PM. Reason : .]

12/10/2007 10:23:58 PM

^^ Part of the problem is that we're one of the unhealthiest developed countries in the world. Spending billions more on health care because of heart disease, diabetes, and other preventable diseases really raises the costs.

12/10/2007 10:26:26 PM

Quote :

"Just because your view is positive doesn't mean it's any less racist."

His comments aren't really racist... Japan is a nation, and he was treating them as such, regardless of a fact that said nation is populated almost entirely by the same race. What he said would be more nationality-ist or culture-ist, if there were such things.

12/10/2007 10:29:45 PM

Whatever. Let's call it making completely incorrect conclusions based on a caricatured fantasy of what Japanese society and economy are like

[Edited on December 10, 2007 at 10:33 PM. Reason : .]

12/10/2007 10:32:49 PM

Quote :

"A lot of Americans are spoiled and lazy expecting someone to spoonfeed them or think someone owes them." "In Japan people have a more utilitarian mind set thinking about society at a whole, and caring for family instead of just themselves"

I firmly stand by this statement. A trip to Walmart, the NC fair, rolling through any rural town, orwatching Maurry/Ricky Lake/American Idol/My Sweet 16.

Quote :

"Complete and utter bullshit. Americans work more hours than citizens of any other developed country"

S. Korea???? btw a lot of this has to do with wage desparity and income cutoff point for social progams provided by the government that forces people to work more to meet necessities. I think this is good in my opinion but their is still way more people that give up and its then that they can just sit around collecting welfare checks. I thought it was pretty accepted that overall we have a lot of ignorant lazy people in this country.

Quote :

""Just because your view is positive doesn't mean it's any less racist.""

how are my comments racist?? I respect asian culture a lot. The asian people i know are some of the most hard working people I know. They come over to this country and either through brain or sweat make their way into society without expecting free hand outs like some minority groups.

[Edited on December 10, 2007 at 10:52 PM. Reason : l]

[Edited on December 10, 2007 at 10:53 PM. Reason : l]

12/10/2007 10:50:22 PM