I basically wanted to start a thread where people could discuss police conduct or misconduct as the situation may dictate.

I realize that the elections are on everyone's mind right now, but this is an issue that flares up every few years.

One example of police conduct that has gained some substantial media attention in recent years are high speed chases.

I was wondering whether or not you think that the police should be able to, in any situation, conduct high speed chases?

Should there be limitations on the reasonability of high speed chases? For example, if the police are apprehending a suspect in a densely populated area, should they be allowed to chase?

Is the use of high speed chase an act of using "deadly force" on the part of the police?


Here is a video in which police conducting a high speed chase outside of Atlanta in 2001. The video is lengthy. Here, the police determined to end the chase by allowing a cruiser to use his push bumper to push the suspect off of the road. The subsequent crash left Harris (suspect) a quadriplegic. The first half is the initial car chasing the suspect and you can see the crash at about 6:15. The second half starting at about 8:45 shows another police in car camera in which he tries to first box in the suspect. Suspect hits him and continues. At this time, he asks permission to "take him out" and you can see the police criuser tap the bumper sending the car careening off the road.

The argument is that police should be able to conduct high speed chases any time they deem necessary because otherwise, criminals will know that so long as the speed and cross a double yellow line a few times they can get away.


http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/video/scott_v_harris.rmvb

2/23/2008 2:34:38 PM

I dont see a problem with high speed chases for officers properly trained for them.
That's not really a form of "misconduct" to me. However I do believe it is deadlyforce and it better be warranted in each and every case. This especially goes for situations like the above - knocking a car at that speed is equivalent or worse than shooting at them with a gun (worse because there's less control involved and you may wind up with somebody better off dead who isn't). But I wouldn't take guns away from cops, so I don't see telling them they cant use a car as a weapon either.


Miscounduct to me is the case in Florida where an officer dumped a wheelchair-bound person onto the floor of the station because they didn't believe him. Then searched him while he was on the fuckin ground.

I also think tasers just encourage the worst sort of power abuse and misconduct ever. They can be deadly, and are FAR from harmless. I think those should get banned, you're either willing to pull a gun on the guy, or not. Because Taser's get pulled out WAY too fast. For example- the guy in the airport (i'll find a link shortly) who was upset over a missed flight- yeah he was misbehaving but he wasn't threatning anyone directly, and he didnt speak a word of english. He got tasered to death before a translator was even called. I mean we could just LIST cases of taser abuse here for days.

I have no idea why we as a society put up with those kind of cops. I'm a hell of a lot less worried about high speed chases than that.

2/23/2008 2:52:50 PM

To the OP, thats not misconduct.

Should he just be allowed to get away?

2/23/2008 3:04:02 PM

^^ Well , the Supreme Court doesn't really view it as deadly force. They ruled that "High speed chases with no intent to harm suspects physically or to worsen their legal plight do not give rise to liability under the 14th Amendment. A police officer’s attempt to terminate a dangerous high-speed car chase that threatens the lives of by-standers does not violate the 14th Amendment , even when it places the fleeing motorist at risk of serious injury or death."


^ The situation becomes a little more strained if you really consider some varying situations.

Let's say that a suspect is simply mentally deranged or for some other reason decides to elude police for committing a misdemeanor, say speeding for example. If the suspect is travelling at excessively high speeds through a pedestrian crowded area should the police be required to abandon pursuit? Certainly this would encourage bad behavior, but is giving someone a speeding ticket worth putting dozens of pedestrians at risk of being killed?

The concern is not only for bystanders, but for the life of the suspect as well.

Here is some discussion on high speed chases. Also, California is considering making them illegal.

http://www.pierretristam.com/Bobst/07/cn040407.htm

Quote :

"Police chases kill 300 people a year, 100 of them innocent bystanders. They injure thousands and demolish property worth millions. Cops call it protecting public safety even as they go about wrecking it. "

[Edited on February 23, 2008 at 3:22 PM. Reason : adsf]

2/23/2008 3:15:01 PM

^ Well, I can disagree with the Supreme Court's ruling without believing it to be misconduct.

I can also see how it might be a poor choice to conduct chases - but i dont think it's misconduct just misguided perhaps. I wouldn't oppose if they were outlawed.

2/23/2008 4:13:43 PM

Quote :

"Certainly this would encourage bad behavior"

Exactly.

2/23/2008 4:28:37 PM

police (mis)conduct.....................oooooooh how edgy and what a clever pun.


Now personally I am all for punishing cops who disgrace the badge by actually committing misconduct, but 90% of what most people think is misconduct really isn't. Such as use of force, tasers, etc. If half of the critics actually did the job for a few nights and realized just how dangerous it can be, you might not be so critical when a cop hits someone resisting.

2/23/2008 6:51:58 PM

If pitting a car is considered deadly force, then a suspect speeding away should also be considered a life threatening crime, in which case it would be appropriate to use deadly force.

It shouldn't be illegal for high speed chases, but there should be some guidelines on what conditions warrant a high speed chase.

2/23/2008 8:21:04 PM

I think being a cop is a tough job. Listening to people lie to you all day long would get on my nerves fast. You never know what condition, or frame of mind, the guy you just pulled over is in.
No thanks.. I'm glad people like Repub18 are willing to do it.

And I'd like to end with a favorite Sgt. Friday monolouge.....

Quote :

"Marijuana is the flame, heroin is the fuse, LSD is the bomb. So don’t you try to equate liquor with marijuana, Mister..not with me. You may sell that jazz to another pot-head…but not to somebody who spends most of their time holding some sick kid’s head while he vomits and wretches sitting on a curbstone at four o’clock in the morning. And when his knees get enough starch back in ‘em so he can stand up and empty his pockets, you can bet he’ll turn out a stick or two of marijuana. And you can double your money he’ll be holding a sugar cube or a cap or two …so don’t you con me with your mind-expansion slop. I deal with kids every day. I try to clean up the mess that people like you make out of them. I’m the expert here, you’re not."

2/23/2008 9:48:28 PM

Quote :

"If pitting a car is considered deadly force"

it is considered deadly force

2/24/2008 2:01:00 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GgWrV8TcUc

2/24/2008 2:13:12 AM

Quote :

"police (mis)conduct.....................oooooooh how edgy and what a clever pun. "

It wasn't intended to be either edgy or clever jack ass. I included the parenthes so that people could report conduct as in good conduct. I wanted this thread to be about both the good and the bad.

I should have made that more clear in my first post.



[Edited on February 24, 2008 at 9:10 AM. Reason : sdva]

2/24/2008 8:48:44 AM

Forget pits, let's take them out like they do in spain:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCJPN_H9LcQ

2/24/2008 12:22:35 PM

Quote :

"I should have made that more clear in my first post. "

yes you should have, but my bad for being an ass, we have an under appreciated complex

2/24/2008 8:28:08 PM

Quote :

"If half of the critics actually did the job for a few nights and realized just how dangerous it can be, you might not be so critical when a cop hits someone resisting."

Alternatively, we could abolish the job altogether.

2/24/2008 8:31:26 PM

yes, that would work

2/25/2008 1:01:04 AM

^^
excellent point, sir

Quote :

"we have an under appreciated complex "

maybe you'd be more appreciated if you stood up to your superiors in law enforcement

and actually did something, even if just symbolic, to get rid of unnecessary and/or unjust laws,

rather than being the immoral "front line" by blindly enforcing them with your so-called loyalty to "protect and serve"


whenever I hear about a cop that died chasing a bank robber, or by being shot when breaking up a fight

I feel sad for that cop and their family

but whenever I hear about a cop that died chasing a pimp, or by being shot when raiding a meth lab

I laugh and rejoice over the death of a piece of shit loser

do you get it?

Quote :

"If half of the critics actually did the job for a few nights...."

as I've said before, I'd like to participate in law enforcement

but, I want to remain privately employed

also, I want to choose the laws I enforce

why should police departments have a monopoly on law enforcement?

(oh yeah, it's because most cops become cops on mental power trips, not out of caring benevolence)

(also, cops fear that private law enforcement might out-perform them, so it's better to not even let them try)



[Edited on February 25, 2008 at 8:11 AM. Reason : ]

2/25/2008 8:05:02 AM

Quote :

""Marijuana is the flame, heroin is the fuse, LSD is the bomb. "

Is this guy actually trying to say that LSD is worse than heroin? Amazing.

2/25/2008 8:08:10 AM

^

Quote :

"Now you listen Culver, this is the last time I’m going to tell you to save the cute answers, Now you understand? Now if it’s that personal and you don’t wanna talk about it, alright. But if not, it might be best to put it right here on the table. In other words, you’re a college man, and she’d like to seen you land a job with a little more status attached..is that it? I think maybe I can understand how she feels. And maybe she’s right, Culver. It’s awkward having a policeman around the house. Friends drop in, a man with a badge answers the door. The temperature drops twenty degrees. You throw a party, and that badge gets in the way. All of a sudden there isn’t a straight man in the crowd. Everyone’s a comedian. Don’t drink too much somebody says, or the man with the badge will run you in. Or How’s it going Dick Tracy? How many jaywalkers did you pinch today? And then there’s always the one who wants to know how many apples you stole. All at once, you’ve lost your first name. You’re a cop, a flat-foot, a Bull, a Dick, John Law..you’re the fuzz, the Heat. You’re poison, you’re trouble. You’re bad news. They call you everything…but never a policeman. Maybe she’s right. It’s not much of a life, unless you don’t mind missing a Dodger game because the hot-shot phone rings. Not unless you like working Saturdays, Sundays, holidays at a job that doesn’t pay over-time. Oh the pay’s adequate. If you count your pennies, you can put your kid through college. But you better plan on seeing Europe on your television set. And then there’s your first night on the beat. When you try to arrest a drunken prostitute in a main street bar, and she rips your new uniform to shreds. You’ll buy another one, out of your own pocket. And you’re gonna rub elbows with all the elite: pimps, addicts, thieves, bums, winos, girls who can’t keep an address, and men who don’t care. Liars, cheats, conmen, the class at skid-row. And the heart-break. Underfed kids, beaten kids, molested kids, lost kids, crying kids, homeless kids, hit-and-run kids, broken-arm kids, broken-leg kids, broken-head kids, sick kids, dying kids, dead kids. The old people that nobody wants, the reliefers, the pensioners, the ones who walk the streets cold, and the ones who try to keep warm and died in a three dollar room with an unvented gas heater. You’ll walk your beat and try to pick up the pieces. Do you have real adventure in your soul Culver? You better have. Cause you’re gonna do time in a prowl car. Oh it’s gonna be a thrill a minute when you get an unknown trouble call, and hit a backyard at two in the morning, never knowing who you’ll meet. A kid with a knife, a pill-head with a gun, or two ex-cons with nothing to lose. And you’re gonna have plenty of time to think. You’ll draw duty in a lonely car, with nobody to talk to but your radio. And paperwork? You’ll write enough words in your life-time to stock a library. You’ll learn to live with doubt, anxiety, frustration. Court decisions that tend to hinder rather than help you. You’ll learn to live with the District Attorney, testifying in court. Defense attorneys, prosecuting attorneys, judges, juries, witnesses. And sometimes you’re not gonna be happy with the outcome. Maybe your girlfriend’s right Culver. But there’s also this: There’s over five thousand men in this city who know that being a policeman is an endless, glamour-less, thankless job that’s gotta be done. I know it too, and I’m damn glad to be one of them. "

2/25/2008 11:06:33 AM

Amazing.

2/25/2008 11:26:12 AM

Quote :

"I mean we could just LIST cases of taser abuse here for days."

Would anybody care to list the number of cases were tazers saved lives?

2/25/2008 11:31:42 AM

Quote :

"maybe you'd be more appreciated if you stood up to your superiors in law enforcement and actually did something, even if just symbolic, to get rid of unnecessary and/or unjust laws,"

would someone please like explain to 392 how our system of government works...ie legislative branch.

2/25/2008 1:22:02 PM

Quote :

"maybe you'd be more appreciated if you stood up to your superiors in law enforcement and actually did something, even if just symbolic, to get rid of unnecessary and/or unjust laws, rather than being the immoral "front line" by blindly enforcing them with your so-called loyalty to "protect and serve""

Do you really want public servants chosing what laws to enforce, not enforce, or -- conversely -- what laws to make up based on their own personal sense of what is right and what is wrong? I fully expect a LEO to use his personal judgement in the execution of the law, but I would prefer that he be accountable to the laws enacted by the government and hold myself (not LEOs) responsible for the modification of said laws through the democratic process, not by a thousand arbitrary supreme courts with a badge and a gun.

2/25/2008 1:34:07 PM

A cop and some woman that was with him jaywalked this morning and placed themselves directly in front of my car because of their stupidity.

2/25/2008 1:36:31 PM

If the guy would have pulled over would he still have use of his arms and legs?

2/25/2008 2:22:00 PM

As a guy with more than a few speeding tickets, I would love it if high speed chases were outlawed. I'd just never pull over.

As a guy with several friends who are cops I know that "Speed is a factor in every single accident." In their futile attempts to get me to stop speeding, I have been quoted that many times.

As a future cop, I'd hate to miss out on that fun.

2/25/2008 2:34:20 PM