http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0408/9940.html

Figured we could actually discuss a policy instead of bickering about more bullshit. What do you think of the policy? Sounds like a mixture between the Democrat's socialized health care and a completely free market alternative.

4/30/2008 4:14:38 PM

As a cancer survivor, I can't believe he isn't taking a more socially benevolent stand on healthcare. He'd be fucking DEAD right now if he was poor and without healthcare.

4/30/2008 4:18:36 PM

I'm really not a fan of the Dems plan for healthcare at all, but McCain seems to just be making vague promises.

Imo, nothing will really change as long as the insurance companies are out to make a profit.

4/30/2008 4:24:48 PM

Funny you mention mccain being dead if he wasnt rich, but fail to mention Bill being alive bc we DONT have socialized medicine... gotta love the waitlists.

The govt needs to do LESS for healthcare. Medicares plans to cut 40% over 5 years will do wonders to fix the situation. Although when no doctors accept medicare, they will have to do away with the cuts and leave us in this mess.

4/30/2008 4:30:58 PM

Quote :

"I can't believe he isn't taking a more socially benevolent stand on healthcare."

reform is needed i agree but why should the gov't take an active role in providing health care. Affordable Private Health Coverage should be available for those who work hard. If you choose, however, to waste your paycheck on booze/big screen TV/car payment you can't afford versus providing your family with health insurance then you should not bitch when you do not get quick top tier treatment when something goes wrong.

Idealistically we'd have a vast supply of doctors and super cheap effective treatments so everyone could be super healthy till their 120. Realistically though this is not the case.

[Edited on April 30, 2008 at 4:43 PM. Reason : a]

4/30/2008 4:41:55 PM

Quote :

"He'd be fucking DEAD right now if he was poor and without healthcare."

I don't even know where to begin with this.

4/30/2008 4:42:54 PM

Without 'providing' universal health care; I think the gov't could remove, fix, or create various policies that would drive down the market price of health care, increase incentive for more people to enter medicine, and thus allow healthcare + medical insurance to be more affordable to the avg person.

I think one of the biggest problems right now besides just general health care acess is the FDA and the pharm industry as related to prescription drug costs..

4/30/2008 4:46:56 PM

Here is an example of a negative recourse. We have a 100k dollar piece of equipment in one of our offices. When we first got this, medicare would pay us 120 bucks per eye to run it on people with certain conditions. Now we get paid 63 bucks for both eyes. We are considering selling it, we just cant afford to keep it now. ANd it is a GREAT tool and asset, but someone has to pay for it. People just think this shit grows on trees. Hell our chairs cost on average 12k... And one ins. company pays 28 bucks for an exam. A fucking barber gets more.

4/30/2008 4:50:18 PM

Quote :

"I don't even know where to begin with this."

You can begin by looking at the survival rates of poor people who have gotten cancer twice

then just take it from there and flame away if you want

I don't really give a fuck

4/30/2008 4:50:47 PM

Quote :

"You can begin by looking at the survival rates of poor people who have gotten cancer twice "

LOL, oh the logic. Lets look at the survival rates for people who have gotten into bad car accidents TWICE. Played russian rullet TWICE. Or faced ANY deadly disease TWICE.

4/30/2008 4:53:58 PM

i'm all for whatever helps natural selection.

were only weaking ourselves otherwise.

4/30/2008 4:54:17 PM

^^Yeah, like McCain, who has gotten cancer

TWICE

4/30/2008 4:54:47 PM

^^^^^ didn't you forget eyedrb rich people, professionals, and other upper middle class people are evil. DAMN them for working hard to make a good living; this is UNFAIR. therefore we need to tax them and take their money to provide services to the working class and poor of america who are discriminated against on a daily basis by the "system"

[Edited on April 30, 2008 at 4:55 PM. Reason : a]

4/30/2008 4:55:27 PM

skin cancer.


actually show me the rates terp.

4/30/2008 4:56:17 PM

private, not for-profit health insurance companies.

4/30/2008 4:58:34 PM

Quote :

"Yeah, like McCain, who has gotten cancer"

It is an unfortunate consequence scarcity and economics; but i do not see how you can deny those who are willing to pay for it, better access to health care.

With their money; it provides incentive for more doctors and more research who thus benefit the rest of society as a whole in the long run.

4/30/2008 4:59:24 PM

Terpball - DO you have health insurance?

4/30/2008 5:01:03 PM

Quote :

"skin cancer. actually show me the rates terp."

umm, fuck no

notice I was responding to smartass capymca who could do nothing other than say "I don't even know where to begin with this"

and I told him where he could start

I'm not doing shit!

^ Yeah, and my dog has health insurance - she's one lucky dog isn't she?

[Edited on April 30, 2008 at 5:03 PM. Reason : ]

4/30/2008 5:01:55 PM

Quote :

"With their money; it provides incentive for more doctors and more research who thus benefit the rest of society as a whole in the long run"

investing healthcare profits in research/equipment, instead of lining the pockets of a select few would do wonders.

4/30/2008 5:05:01 PM

Ok, so you have health insurance. So I guess that means that you

A) Have a job that provides it.
B) Choose to pay for it out of pocket instead of other options.
C) Have parents that either do A or B for you.



About 2/3 of people without health insurance could be doing option B, but instead CHOOSE to spend that money on other things - ie, they could afford it, but they would rather spend the money something else.

Knowing that, why should taxpayers provide even more support to these people?

4/30/2008 5:07:33 PM

Quote :

"investing healthcare profits in research/equipment, instead of lining the pockets of a select few would do wonders"

I am sure all the doctors of the US are laughing in the break room about their fleecing of the american people to provide them with healthcare service.

Not to mention that i'd be surprised if you met one doctor that entered the field for the "big" paycheck.

4/30/2008 5:07:44 PM

Quote :

" Knowing that, why should taxpayers provide even more support to these people?"

because liberals feel "sorry" for poor people

and

poor people always want more while doing less

4/30/2008 5:08:45 PM

^^^As I understand it, Obama would make it more affordable for everyone, so we can even help out that other 1/3 that you left out of your post

Quote :

"poor people always want more while doing less"

you're a fucking shit head

[Edited on April 30, 2008 at 5:09 PM. Reason : ]

4/30/2008 5:08:48 PM

Quote :

"I am sure all the doctors of the US are laughing in the break room about their fleecing of the american people to provide them with healthcare service"

i'm talking about the profits of private insurance companies, not individual doctor salaries.

4/30/2008 5:10:18 PM

^^

Anytime you start a social welfare program aimed at certain people, it always grows and grows and grows until it is eating up our federal budget. (anybody know what we spend each month or year on Social Security/Welfare vs ALL military spending??)


Socialized medicine would work much like welfare....make a large percentage of the lower class more willing to stay low class to get those medical benfits just like many stay without jobs to collect gov't benefits.


Note- Obama says he will do so but he has no evidence that any of his proposals will do anything other than add at LEAST 60 billion to the federal budget.

[Edited on April 30, 2008 at 5:13 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on April 30, 2008 at 5:14 PM. Reason : .]

4/30/2008 5:13:06 PM

Quote :

"^^ Anytime you start a social welfare program aimed at certain people, it always grows and grows and grows until it is eating up our federal budget. (anybody know what we spend each month or year on Social Security/Welfare vs ALL military spending??) Socialized medicine would work much like welfare....make a large percentage of the lower class more willing to stay low class to get those medical benfits just like many stay without jobs to collect gov't benefits. "

It sounds like you're copying and pasting this off a GOP website. These are fundamental differences between conservatives and liberals we'd be arguing here. Is there really any point in continuing this conversation? My opinion is no, there is no point. All I can say is I fundamentally disagree with almost everything you have to say about healthcare

4/30/2008 5:16:07 PM

not socalized though, private not for profit.....there are several small ones out there, but the giants dominate the landscape. re-investing profits in lowering member premiums, or new equipment would benefit everyone in the group.

4/30/2008 5:16:37 PM

^^

Could we just take it to government in general?

I believe people should take responsibility for their own actions and their own lives. They are responsible for themselves and their family.

The goverment should protect me from outside threats (army), inside threats (police), and provide infrastucture and public works (roads, schools, etc).

Adam Smith had it right.



And is there any evidence that all the major social welfare programs that has been started haven't consistently expanded?



[Edited on April 30, 2008 at 5:19 PM. Reason : .]

4/30/2008 5:18:42 PM

Quote :

"Obama would make it more affordable for everyone, so we can even help out that other 1/3 that you left out of your post"

Well this other 1/3 either gets Medicaid b.c they are below the poverty line, get that new child health care thing since they are <18 with poor parents, or get Medicare since they are over 65. Therefore they are already taken care of. Nice try though.

Quote :

"These are fundamental differences between conservatives and liberals "

yeah liberals have this idealistic humanitarian viewpoint of the world as they sit debating philosophy in their own intellectual bubble. While those more fiscally conservative have a REALISTIC understanding of the world.

Quote :

"I believe people should take responsibility for their own actions and their own lives. They are responsible for themselves and their family. The goverment should protect me from outside threats (army), inside threats (police), and provide infrastucture and public works (roads, schools, etc)."

Exactly. As an additional i do support a "limited acute" welfare program that TEMPORARILY helps out someone struggling in between jobs or other drastic circumstance. Not a welfare system like we have now that people can just sit on their couch expecting a check every week.

btw i might be more tolerant of U.H.C if the working poor and working class actually paid their fair share %-wise of paycheck in federal taxes; in order to fund such a program that solely exist to provide for them. With liberals like obama we'd just see the lower middle and upper middle class tax brackets get pushed into the 30% range; with the upper class going into the 40%. Meanwhile Joe Bum is enjoying his free healthcare while paying 0%-10% in taxes. Good for him though less taxes and no health care costs means he has more money to put those chrome rim spinners on his chevy malibu.

[Edited on April 30, 2008 at 5:29 PM. Reason : aa]

[Edited on April 30, 2008 at 5:31 PM. Reason : aa]

4/30/2008 5:21:44 PM

Quote :

"I'm not doing shit!"

terpball


Ah, the democrats core demographic. That should be your motto. Much catchier than "yes we can". More like "no we wont"

Just how would obama make it more affordable? Talk to it?

capymca, I agree with everything you've stated in this post. That the core difference between responsible people and perpetual victims.

4/30/2008 11:13:25 PM

I definitely like McCain's plan more than the democrat's. It gives the tax breaks that the corporations get now and gives it to the consumer to buy his/her own insurance.

5/1/2008 9:33:08 AM

^^I understand your views on healthcare, I think it works for SOME people. I think there are different ways to work this healthcare thing out - I really think you should be more open-minded about ways to fix the system now, because it's broken. people who can't afford to go to the doctor and get a simple diagnosis are letting the disease eat away at their bodies until they have to go to the ER and a tab 100X higher than the ignitial diagnosis and meds gets billed to the tax payers. As long as that still happens, the system will remain broken.

5/1/2008 10:50:15 AM

Terp,that is what you have been told. The truth is that people who are GIVEN free healthcare still refuse to see the doctor for routine care and wont take thier free medicine. We have recently shifted our medicaids to one day. Because they are BY FAR the biggest no show rate. People simply having insurance does not make them more responsible. Actually when people are given anything, I think it has the opposite effect.

The sad part is when the school nurses bring in some kid, with FREE insurance, bc thier worthless parent wont bring them in.

THe one difference are my mexican patients. I dont know if its a difference in attitude or its just that they arent on thier 3rd generation of dependency. BUt they are the most appreciative patients and will get and use whatever I prescribe. I have NEVER gotten a call back asking for something else bc of insurance or price with them. Other than the language gap, they are some of my most enjoyable patients.

5/1/2008 10:58:04 AM

Quote :

"disease eat away at their bodies until they have to go to the ER and a tab 100X higher than the ignitial diagnosis and meds gets billed to the tax payers"

This part is true. One of my friends is a doctor and he told me how this shit does happen all the time.

5/1/2008 11:14:47 AM

My sister is a doctor, she actually has both her MD and Ph.D - she knows what's up

5/1/2008 12:09:05 PM

what kind of Dr terP, where does she practice?

5/1/2008 12:16:24 PM

Regardless if what terp said was true about the ER; it still doesn't change the fact that many americans neglect their dependents and themselves by using money which should be used to purchase health insurance to buy other "necessities" like chrome rims, alcohol, eating out every other night, 42" lcd TV, etc

hell even those with insurance espicially guys will neglect going to the doctor when something is wrong.

5/1/2008 12:24:15 PM

^^My sister doesn't have a practice, at least not yet - she's always been driven by research, and I just can't picture her doing anything but research. She's an otolaryngologist at UTMB.

Got her MD and Ph.D at Emory - moved to Texas to open a lab with a more experienced doctor, not she does a lot of research and works with students.


^ That post is of no use, it doesn't offer any solutions, as a matter of fact, it's a pretty offensive stereotype. There are many who would love the opportunity to help heal themselves and their kids but just simply can't. They will rack up a huge bill in the ER eventually though.

[Edited on May 1, 2008 at 12:29 PM. Reason : ]

5/1/2008 12:26:40 PM

ENT always seemed like a good gig. However dentistry or radiology would be the best. IMO

I figured when you said the PHd she was heavy into research.

Back to the topic, Terps being right about people clogging up the ERs is right. However, there are people who are given insurance that still go to the ER for a sore throat. This cost taxpayers at least 500 bucks, when an office visit at thier PCP would be around 60.

My point is that just having the insurance does not make people more responsible. What are the stats of people who can currently afford it, but choose not too. IF you tend to pay for your health ins or healthcare I think you are more likely to take care of yourself. I know I lost some weight and changed my diet bc I was trying to get life ins. I got my first qoute jacked up when my labs came back, but I worked on it, got it down, and got my ins at the lower rate.

Now if i didnt have to pay for that ins, why would I give a shit? Other than wanting to get healthier...but that is just talk. People wnat ot be healthy, skinny, fit.. but doing so is a totally different thing. And if it wasnt for that premium I wouldnt have taken the steps.. .bc im a cheapass.

5/1/2008 12:42:35 PM

Quote :

"it's a pretty offensive stereotype"

huh; my analogy could be applied to any racial group.

I am not very racist; as I am an equal opportunity hater. If anything i'd say i'm classist.

5/1/2008 12:48:17 PM

I like reading what doctors have to say about this:

"Not a day goes by that I don't see a patient with rotten teeth in the ER for a toothache. I have NOTHING against helping the poor....in fact I don't think we help them enough.

But back to my toothache example, in almost every single one of these cases (and the other ER docs on here will back me up), the person is wearing very nice clothes, has a late model cell phone, fancy tennis shoes, manicured nails and expensive hair styles - (if female), and he or she usually reeks of tobacco. In other words they have plenty of cash for what they WANT and think is worthy of spending their cash on.

"When did your tooth start hurting?" I ask. The responses are usually weeks to years. "Have you called a dentist to schedule an appointment?" I ask. "No, they're too expensive" or "I didn't have the money to see one" are the usual replies.

It's a matter of priorities and taking responsibility for your own healthcare needs."

From http://docsontheweb.blogspot.com/

5/1/2008 1:03:32 PM

McCain's healthcare plan has one of the dumbest provisions I have ever heard.

He proposes that we remove the tax credit to employers who provide insurance to their employees.

That right there disqualifies McCain from being President.

5/1/2008 1:06:59 PM

hahahaha

just like Wright's pastor disqualifies him

5/1/2008 1:12:55 PM

I think our ERs should be able to triage patients. Would go along ways to saving money and teaching some responsibility.

5/1/2008 1:29:05 PM

ERs do triage patients.

Quote :

"hahahaha just like Wright's pastor disqualifies him"

Wright at least wasn't trying to remove the reason why so many Americans have health insurance.

[Edited on May 1, 2008 at 2:01 PM. Reason : .]

5/1/2008 2:00:50 PM

joke.

5/1/2008 2:08:24 PM

Quote :

"He proposes that we remove the tax credit to employers who provide insurance to their employees. "

No he doesn't. Read his plan again. He proposes to change the current tax credit given to employees so that instead all taxpayers get a $2500 tax credit to spend on medical bills at their discretion. The concept is to return the decision-making process to families, rather than having corporations decide who provides your healthcare.

The tax credit for employer-provided health insurance would still be in effect, however.

[Edited on May 1, 2008 at 2:18 PM. Reason : 2]

5/1/2008 2:16:00 PM

Quote :

"he person is wearing very nice clothes, has a late model cell phone, fancy tennis shoes, manicured nails and expensive hair styles - (if female), and he or she usually reeks of tobacco. In other words they have plenty of cash for what they WANT and think is worthy of spending their cash on."

be careful terpball is about to call you out for your offensive stereotypes.

5/1/2008 2:20:03 PM

Quote :

"What are the stats of people who can currently afford it, but choose not too. IF you tend to pay for your health ins or healthcare I think you are more likely to take care of yourself."

by that statement, you seem like you'd be for Clinton's proposal of pretty much forcing people who can afford it to have health care.

5/1/2008 2:33:26 PM

nuts, I meant triage patients and decline services that arent emergencies.

5/1/2008 4:23:49 PM